As noticed from the most recent twitch with Cohh, near the beginning before they moved towards Thornefast we saw Cohh hovering over a few peices of gear, xxx of the Sunhunter. He was wearing at least 3 peices of this gear and we see that he's also level 50.
I'm hoping this gear is place holder gear, or "common" gear that typically is just vendor fodder. It did have some added stats but, maybe I'm remembering wrong, but for high level it seemed underwhelming.
Also, are their going to be sets? We saw at least 3 were being worn, and again, maybe this is vendor fodder, but I' hoping there will be set bonuses.
Those numbers did seem a bit low, however, I remember some items from original EQ had pretty pathetic stats by today standards. Back then though, before expansions, they were the best gear available. This could also simply be that they do not have a lot of armor choices available at the moment.
That gear is just place holder stuff, most likely to show off the art and test basic gear functionality. It is nowhere near balanced as that comes way later.
And they prolly just did a GM command to make that character 50 as well as load the gear for the character.
This is pre-alpha footage.
I'm not sure how you can tell that stats on gear are good, bad, or indifferent without seeing that gear in relation to other gear.
Frankly, for myself, I would much rather go back to the days where +5 or +10 on something was amazing - rather than the trend today of +1000 or more. To me - the difference between a player in no gear and a player in the best gear in every slot should be an improvement of maybe 50% stat wise. (so if that max player had 100 dex and was built for dex, they would have 150 or whatever. Bad gear would be less... maybe 10 or 20%...
My goal would be to have gear enhance the player - but not BE the player. That is, in today's games... a very bad player in top end gear would blow away a very good player in no gear. I would always prefer that in that scenario, the very good playe would still perform better.
That's just me though.
Wandidar said:My goal would be to have gear enhance the player - but not BE the player. That is, in today's games... a very bad player in top end gear would blow away a very good player in no gear. I would always prefer that in that scenario, the very good playe would still perform better.
That's just me though.
Gear should matter, the reason it should matter is because of character progression. The more you can progress your character in some capacity, the greater longevity content has. Sure enough, doing dungeons, exploring and what not can be fun on its own, but there needs to be a greater overall incentive over time to do said content. Being able to notice as your character grows in power is one of the cornerstones of a successful RPG experience, but its also something that has to be carefully managed so that you don't end up with scenarios where content quickly turns trivial and power creep spiral out of control.
This is why horizontal gear progression is so important. Not only does it allow for a much greater variety in gear design (not just statstick gear), but makes equipment more situational, prevents ridiculous powercreep - and most importantly allows gear to remain an important venue of character progression. Even a poorly played Wizard should blow a naked well played Wizard out of the water in terms of damage every day of the week.
I remember fondly the days where gear was an adjunct to player skill and class role. I remarked on the very same thing you are speaking of to my wife while I watched the stream. The stats may be underwhelming to you depending on what you are used to, but they actually represent proper scaling in an mmo. Cumulative stacking is where the upgrades shine despite the underwhelming presentation that + 2 Int may be. I am looking forward to a game where things are fresh without crutches, seatbelts or helmets. A unique experience that doesn’t limit danger and accelerate reward for appeal. I want to be elated in the presence of a +1 dex weapon that also slows my own movement when I crit... maybe I’m masochistic. I think the best take home from the stream was the artistic endeavor that appears to be growing by leaps and bounds as evidenced by their evolving city and characters. I was amazed by the movement of the foliage and the shadowing within the city. It was great, and I cannot wait to be invited to participate. Just add Necromancers and were golden!!!
You cannot look at any of the items in Pantheon from a view of 'today's standards'. We all know gear today, in games that have been out for years or decades, is a direct result of terrible planning. Think back to EQ1, pre-Kunark, and you are raiding PoFear/PoHate. Check the stats on what was then the best gear.
Woven Shadow Bracer
MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE QUEST ITEM
Slot: WRIST
AC: 9
STR: +3 DEX: +3 AGI: +3
SV FIRE: +5 SV COLD: +5
WT: 3.0 Size: SMALL
Class: ROG
Imbrued Platemail Bracer
MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE QUEST ITEM
Slot: WRIST
AC: 11
DEX: +3 INT: +3 HP: +10
WT: 3.0 Size: SMALL
Class: BRD
Prismatic Shield
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: SECONDARY
AC: 18
This item is placeable in yards, guild yards, houses and guild halls.
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
WT: 7.3 Size: MEDIUM
Class: CLR
Remember how, even at lvl 50, resisting Nagafen's AoE was nearly impossible so a +10 all resists item was so amazing? +10 to anything was a huge increase back then and in Pantheon, we are going back to those times. Any +x, even +5 to something will be important again...we hope.
X
Wandidar said:I'm not sure how you can tell that stats on gear are good, bad, or indifferent without seeing that gear in relation to other gear.
Frankly, for myself, I would much rather go back to the days where +5 or +10 on something was amazing - rather than the trend today of +1000 or more. To me - the difference between a player in no gear and a player in the best gear in every slot should be an improvement of maybe 50% stat wise. (so if that max player had 100 dex and was built for dex, they would have 150 or whatever. Bad gear would be less... maybe 10 or 20%...
My goal would be to have gear enhance the player - but not BE the player. That is, in today's games... a very bad player in top end gear would blow away a very good player in no gear. I would always prefer that in that scenario, the very good playe would still perform better.
That's just me though.
Wandidar,
I am with you. I would prefer that gear provide very little power directly but rather are used to negate situational penalties. The other option would be to have gear provide active effects rather than massive passive ones. Ever expanding gear is a function of theme park mmo design.
Trasak
Vandraad said:Remember how, even at lvl 50, resisting Nagafen's AoE was nearly impossible so a +10 all resists item was so amazing? +10 to anything was a huge increase back then and in Pantheon, we are going back to those times. Any +x, even +5 to something will be important again...we hope.
That is a very good point, and you're right, I hope to not see over inflated stats.
Talking about progression and stats, and nothing was mentioned about the second Tab of the Character screen "Stats and Skills" there his stats were 245 for
etc. etc. etc...
I hope these to be more important than what type of gloves I'm wearing. IMHO entirely too much of current MMO's has been focused around the clothing the character is wearing.
Vandraad said:You cannot look at any of the items in Pantheon from a view of 'today's standards'. We all know gear today, in games that have been out for years or decades, is a direct result of terrible planning. Think back to EQ1, pre-Kunark, and you are raiding PoFear/PoHate. Check the stats on what was then the best gear.
Woven Shadow Bracer
MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE QUEST ITEM
Slot: WRIST
AC: 9
STR: +3 DEX: +3 AGI: +3
SV FIRE: +5 SV COLD: +5
WT: 3.0 Size: SMALL
Class: ROGImbrued Platemail Bracer
MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE QUEST ITEM
Slot: WRIST
AC: 11
DEX: +3 INT: +3 HP: +10
WT: 3.0 Size: SMALL
Class: BRDPrismatic Shield
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: SECONDARY
AC: 18
This item is placeable in yards, guild yards, houses and guild halls.
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
WT: 7.3 Size: MEDIUM
Class: CLRRemember how, even at lvl 50, resisting Nagafen's AoE was nearly impossible so a +10 all resists item was so amazing? +10 to anything was a huge increase back then and in Pantheon, we are going back to those times. Any +x, even +5 to something will be important again...we hope.
X
Good point, I think my eyes have become accustomed to "stat-flation". This was heavy and slow, but was awesome for the resists and would be switched in for boss fights. I had to choose between HP and mana or resists and play accordingly.
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM PLACEABLE
Slot: PRIMARY
Skill: 2H Blunt Atk Delay: 37
DMG: 9 Dmg Bonus: 105
This item is placeable in yards, guild yards, houses and guild halls.
SV FIRE: +3 SV DISEASE: +3 SV COLD: +3 SV MAGIC: +3 SV POISON: +3
WT: 12.0 Size: LARGE
Class: CLR DRU SHM NEC WIZ MAG ENC BST BER
Vandraad said:You cannot look at any of the items in Pantheon from a view of 'today's standards'. We all know gear today, in games that have been out for years or decades, is a direct result of terrible planning. Think back to EQ1, pre-Kunark, and you are raiding PoFear/PoHate. Check the stats on what was then the best gear.
Woven Shadow Bracer
MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE QUEST ITEM
Slot: WRIST
AC: 9
STR: +3 DEX: +3 AGI: +3
SV FIRE: +5 SV COLD: +5
WT: 3.0 Size: SMALL
Class: ROGImbrued Platemail Bracer
MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE QUEST ITEM
Slot: WRIST
AC: 11
DEX: +3 INT: +3 HP: +10
WT: 3.0 Size: SMALL
Class: BRDPrismatic Shield
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: SECONDARY
AC: 18
This item is placeable in yards, guild yards, houses and guild halls.
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
WT: 7.3 Size: MEDIUM
Class: CLRRemember how, even at lvl 50, resisting Nagafen's AoE was nearly impossible so a +10 all resists item was so amazing? +10 to anything was a huge increase back then and in Pantheon, we are going back to those times. Any +x, even +5 to something will be important again...we hope.
X
I remember this Vandraad, I hope we will go back to a more sensible application of + stats . To have an Item that is magical or that has resists should be a very big deal early on. Almost any Item would have a certain AC; but multiple magical effects should be rare until you are very well traveled and have 20 - 30 levels behind you.
Kittik said:The only issue I have with super low stats is then, even when we get a piece of gear, it doesn't feel like we've really got anything.
I guess thats a personal thing.
For me I love lower stats on equipment. Even if the most highend gear gives you a very slight edge, I feel it's a great design. It enhances the need for situational gear since there really isn't one BiS piece, keeping older content and gear more relevant. It also helps limit the gap between players with varying degrees of gear, so while adequetly geared players can perform their role well the one person who took the extra effort to put their gear together benefits enough to make it worthwhile. Or perhaps instead of hard stats you get augments to varrious abilities or traits. Personally I'd like to see a healthy mix of all these gear options instead of a pure stat vomit.
WarKnight said:good question, I wonder is he allowed to play in between streams? Did he level that wizard to 50?
I can't say whether or not he's "allowed" to, but Kilsin said he does not. He just logs in a little bit before the stream to get things set up, does the stream, and then logs off. Also, the servers are probably down almost always for maintenance. So no, he didn't level that wizard to 50.
Zeem said:That gear is just place holder stuff, most likely to show off the art and test basic gear functionality. It is nowhere near balanced as that comes way later.
And they prolly just did a GM command to make that character 50 as well as load the gear for the character.
This is pre-alpha footage.
This is correct. When I was demoing the game at TwitchCon, this is exactly what happened. I was handed a character with random test gear already loaded on it that was not at all level-appropriate. The GMs manually adjusted my level based on the area we were going to, but the gear of course remained the same. There's no point in reading too much into the gear you see Cohh using.
As far as stats on gear go, I can tell you that when I was fighting in South Saol (a mid level 30's zone iirc) I looted a seemingly semi-common bracer from the soldiers there that as much as I can remember, had roughly +5 to a few stats. Of course there will be more tuning regarding how often items drop and what's on them, but that kinda gives you an idea of currently where they're going for stat proliferation. The goal is for each individual stat point to feel like it makes a difference. Considering their overall design philosophy, this should not come as a surprise :)
My belief is that gear stats should be realistic. A helm with +10 should be equivalent to 10% resistance. With a max resistance attainable to be 100%. If you don enought pieces to reach 100 then you will most likely max your gear slots with that perticular resistance,be it fire,cold etc. Leaving you vulnerable to otherdangers , like lightning,wind etc. No set of gear should make you invulnerable to all . Thus you will need multiple sets of gear for different raids or bosses. The well balance would be resists to 3-4 elements at once but only about 30% resists each. That would make exploring possible but you would not be walking around in "god mode"
Just my opinion. I want to be strong but not superman. These resists would be able to be enhanced with buffs from players which are temperary and removeable with debuffing spells.
I'm with many others here. I'd prefer that stats on gear be applied only sparingly. Obviously the best gear coming from the highest risk encounters, and those having higher than average stats. But when you start applying big numbers the balance goes out of whack pretty quickly. Especially as time goes on. If there are often +20 stats on version1 of the game. what do stats look like after a few expansions? It has to follow the same scale or everyone is pissed about getting "crap" gear in the new xpac. Then you end up with ridiculously overpowered items, and ridiculously powerful creatures to compensate, and inevitably an inflation of AC/HP/DMG to the point that you're doing 5k dmg per hit on 2mil hp mobs.
WarKnight said:good question, I wonder is he allowed to play in between streams? Did he level that wizard to 50?
When testing there is a feature or was in other previous testing with previous games, where you could access fast tracking your character to a particular level specifically for testing purposes. No grind, just a magical poof and you're the required level. I doubt there was any level grinding that was done in order to put on the livestream. :)
Cana
Sarim said:Yeah the stats COHH was looking at surprised me as well. Lvl 50 wizard with...365hp and 422 mana? Of course we don't know anything about numbers in Pantheon yet but these just seem veeeery low to me :)
Placeholder stats, not what we'll see on release...WORK IN PROGRESS ...Peoples. :)
Cana
Kittik said:The only issue I have with super low stats is then, even when we get a piece of gear, it doesn't feel like we've really got anything.
It's all relative, though.
If we're talking about many modern MMO's where a +3 bump to any given stat is laughable, then sure, I can see that. In those games, often the first item we loot from a named when we're lvl 5 will already have stat increases.
If we're talking about a game like early EQ, where for the first, what, 30 levels, we'd be lucky to get a new piece of equipment with any stat increases at all? Then finally looting that +3 agi helmet it friggin' amazing.
In fairness, +3 agi amounts to nothing tangible so Kittik's point still kind of stands. The scarcity of stats in early EQ didn't matter because most stats on gear were worthless.
HP, AC, Mana, and Strength all had tanglible benefits. The rest would require a hundred hours of parsing to detect any kind of effect.
Liav said:In fairness, +3 agi amounts to nothing tangible so Kittik's point still kind of stands. The scarcity of stats in early EQ didn't matter because most stats on gear were worthless.
HP, AC, Mana, and Strength all had tanglible benefits. The rest would require a hundred hours of parsing to detect any kind of effect.
Fair point.
Interesting, when I think about those early days of EQ, I was maybe 15 or 16 years old and had no idea what those stat increases even did. Just seeing the number was enough to send me in convulsions of irrational joy, regardless of its actual, measurable, effects.