Simple question: How many days PLAYED would you like the average player to take in order to reach max in Pantheon - and why?
My answer - 50 days played... maybe even 55 or 60.
Why?
1) A very long leveling curve will slow the game down making people "live" in the game world, rather than allowing them to race through it.
2) A very long leveling curve means more time spent in individual areas of the game - which (my opinion only) bonds you to the game because you sort of "lay down roots" there
3) A very long leveling curve gives developers time to smooth out imperfections in the game as launched
4) A very long leveling curve gives a small dev team the time to develop new content before old content is consumed by a sizeable percentage of the player base
How about you?
Well, you have to consider that there will be people playing this game from Pre-Alpha until release. Those people will have figured out the fastest ways to level, will have figured out ways to twink and will also have a group of friends with them. Those people will probably be max level in a few days. So those few people will skew the average.
But if we are talking players like you and I, who will get to play an hour a day, maybe more if we give our wives the correct dosage, I'm hoping it'll take us a few months at the least to get to max, if all we work on is one toon.
My hope is that even for the hardest of hardcore, they will still, with all their tricks and tag team rally game play take at the least 1 month to get to max. This is a huge paradigm shift from games of late, where in BDO (I'm whats considered a casual mind you) I was level 40 in the matter of three days. That is discouraging.
I would be happy if at level 35, I get a good 3 hour gaming session in and I've earned 1/4 of a level. That would be ideal for me.
It should take a long time - agreed.
Mostly because of the all too common dynamic of people racing to level cap and then being bored because "there is nothing to do".
Some of us will assuredly race to be one of the first at level cap it isn't just newer or younger players that do that nor is it irrational.
Apart from the competitive aspects, a high level can help friends/guildmates/new players in general. A high level can fund a large and growing family of toonlings.
I expect to spend a LOT of time enjoying the content - I am retired and have a lot of time. But I just may start my first character with the idea of leveling rapidly to become useful to guild and friends. Then I will spend enormous amounts of times slowly taking toonlings far more slowly. That will assure that I have many things to do but some of us do not play alts - those are the ones that will get bored fastest.
A year. :) Rushing to max ..isn't my cup of tea. 5 minutes of fame for being the first to reach 50 doesn't impress me. Rushing to cap tells me that person has missed 75% of what the game is all about and 75% of the hard work the developpers have done to bring the game to us. :) Take time to discover Pantheon. :) Wanted to add, the guild I was with when Agnarr opened this summer, all the ones who raced ahead were level 50 within two weeks of the server opening. I refused to play that game so they left me out of it. I play for fun and to experience what the game has to offer. When I left Agnarr...I was level 35 lol. I also craft and create alts. I harvest to help others get ahead in their crafting, so no I'll probably be the last one to 50, just not important to me.
Cana
I'd like to see it take at least around 480+ hours to reach the level cap personally. That would take a powergamer playing 8 hours a day 2+ months or a more casual player playing 2 hours a day 8 months (3 hrs a day = 5.3 months). Regardless of playstyle all would end up spending plenty of time experiencing or otherwise living in each level/area of content.
For more conversation about leveling speed:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2037/how-long-should-level-1-take
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1743/a-year-to-level-50
To get started I would like the levels to be somewhat quick. Get a solid base of skills / spells / abilities initially. Leveling at a decent pace early on to introduce the new skills / spells / abilities while not making the acquisition too hard for them (meaning not so fast that you will get level 12 before you get your level 10 spells). Honestly, as much as everyone hated hell levels I wouldn't mind them so much if they opened up to a new set of skills / abilities / spells / features.
While on that topic. Death meant something in EQ and other early MMOs. It wasn't lets run in and see whats there without the thought about what if.. what if I die? How do I get my stuff? Am I far enough into my level to not UNDING? There are plenty of other ways to make death painful or at least warrent careful consideration of your choices. Something that was certainly factored in as you leveled.
I will NEVER forget being level 10 in Felewith and the damn cat walking on my keyboard to have my wizard fall this his death and UNDING making the new spells I had just learned.. unusable. Don't really miss that cat...
To answer the question asked:
50-70 days PLAYED
AND death should factor into how you level.
For comparison, the way I got to 50 - 60 days PLAYED in my original post was to try and pick a middle ground amount of time played each day by folks in the Pantheon player base... and I THINK some reasonable estimates are:
1 - 2 hours per day
3-4 hours per day
5 - 7 hours per day
Some small(ish) set of people playing more than 7 hours a day...
Middle ground for me there was 3 - 4 hours... SO...
(3.5 hours per day x 365 days per year) / 24 hours in a day = roughly 53 days played - with the idea of reaching max taking about a year.
I went a little less than that (50 days) to a bit more then that (60 days)
Wandidar said:1) A very long leveling curve will slow the game down making people "live" in the game world, rather than allowing them to race through it.
2) A very long leveling curve means more time spent in individual areas of the game - which (my opinion only) bonds you to the game because you sort of "lay down roots" there
However long it takes to create the above.
Id love to see if take at LEAST 60-70 days PLAYED Or longer, the longer the better, give us hell levels too, Pantheon is going to be a new Home for a lot of us, Something that we want to be playing for YEARS, not rushing to the max level, and then getting bored after a few months.
Remember Pantheon is not just a Game it is going to be a Virtual WORLD, so Taking a very very long time to get to max level is a good thing, because, being a virtual world there will be so much to do aside from leveling, that we will always have something to do when we want a little break from Leveling... Thats my take on it at least :)
I strongly agree with Cana, Iksar, and it seems many others. On average, the journey to 50 should take a few months even for those 12+ hour/day players. Not as in it should be a long boring slog of repetitive grinding, but that it should take long enough, and the content should be compelling enough, that most players focus that time on smaller goals, like getting drops or completing quests, rather than on the leveling itself. Hopefully that makes sense to someone other than me :)
I think there needs to be some variables that are specified in order to actually discuss this.
First we need to specify the player we are referencing when we state a "estimate of play time". Whether we are referring to the fastest, most efficient, leveler or the "average" player etc. has to be specified. Otherwise, stating a number has no basis for comparison. Both of those types of players need to be taken into consideration. Secondly, I think the number should be expressed in number of hours played. Saying "50 days" or "1 year" could be any number of hours played...unless you are referring to /played time (which I don't think people were in most cases)
So I'm going to assume the fastest levelers are playing 20 hrs per day on average. If it took them 50 days that would be 1000 hours played to max lvl. Does that seem about right? To little for the fastest players? 1000 hours doesn't seem like much to me. Unsure. Let's compare a more average gamer.
So, lets say your more standard player averages 5 hours per day. (maybe 3-4 hours during the week and 8ish hours on the weekend). Now, we have to understand that the average gamer is not going to be anywhere near as efficient at gaining exp as the above example. *THIS is what most people aren't taking into account, efficiency variance* I'd estimate they might gain exp 20-50% slower in the same period of /time played than the most efficient players listed above. That would take a more standard gamer 240-300 days to reach max lvl at 1200-1500hrs played. How does that sound to people? To fast? To slow? This seems like a pretty good time window to me. This would lead to a casual player taking over a year...or multiple years, to reach max lvl.
Regardless of whether you agree with these numbers, please be sure that you are stating the type of gamer you are referencing. It is better to estimate numbers for a couple of different "types" of players. If these types of estimates are based on just the "average" player we are missing out on the bigger picture and leaving out a good percentage of the playerbase.
Wow, this thread is horribly detached from reality. One to several years for a casual to hit max level? Enjoy playing a game with 6 people.
If it takes any longer than a month for the hardest core players to hit cap, the average casual will probably just quit. I agree that it shouldn't take 2 days, but let's be real here. You're suggesting we take EQ's 1999 leveling curve and multiply the amount of xp required by ten times or more.
Wandidar said:Simple question: How many days PLAYED would you like the average player to take in order to reach max in Pantheon - and why?
My answer - 50 days played... maybe even 55 or 60.
I don't think that is anywhere near long enough for the average gamer. You have the fastest levelers hitting max in around 2 weeks at that rate. Not even close to long enough.
Liav said:Wow, this thread is horribly detached from reality. One to several years for a casual to hit max level? Enjoy playing a game with 6 people.
If it takes any longer than a month for the hardest core players to hit cap, the average casual will probably just quit. I agree that it shouldn't take 2 days, but let's be real here. You're suggesting we take EQ's 1999 leveling curve and multiply the amount of xp required by ten times or more.
If VR delivers on their promises there will definitely be casual players, and players who haven't experienced challenging gameplay, who try the game and find it is not for them. It is inevitable.
You seem to be overestimating EQ's leveling curve in comparison.
i hope it is like Lineage 2 where, except for the very first chronicle, it was damn near impossible to hit max without botting. There were times it took literally over a month of everyday playing (some pvp war deaths) to reach the next level. the goal needs to be unlocking your next skills. not hitting lvl cap. from everything i have read, i thought this was going to be a grind game. 1 month for the hardcores to reach max lvl is anything but a grind and makes for a fast departure for alot of people. if this is to be a subscription game it needs the average player to play for year(s). almost all of the "easy" mmorpgs in recent years have been super fast leveling, and it makes people bored and leaving after 3-6 months. Not to mention P2W cash shops that come rolling in a few months after and always seem to put items that are OP, like items that increase enchanting chance or whatever.
philo said:I think there needs to be some variables that are specified in order to actually discuss this.
First we need to specify the player we are referencing when we state a "estimate of play time". Whether we are referring to the fastest, most efficient, leveler or the "average" player etc. has to be specified. Otherwise, stating a number has no basis for comparison. Both of those types of players need to be taken into consideration. Secondly, I think the number should be expressed in number of hours played. Saying "50 days" or "1 year" could be any number of hours played...unless you are referring to /played time (which I don't think people were in most cases)
So I'm going to assume the fastest levelers are playing 20 hrs per day on average. If it took them 50 days that would be 1000 hours played to max lvl. Does that seem about right? To little for the fastest players? 1000 hours doesn't seem like much to me. Unsure. Let's compare a more average gamer.
So, lets say your more standard player averages 5 hours per day. (maybe 3-4 hours during the week and 8ish hours on the weekend). Now, we have to understand that the average gamer is not going to be anywhere near as efficient at gaining exp as the above example. *THIS is what most people aren't taking into account, efficiency variance* I'd estimate they might gain exp 20-50% slower in the same period of /time played than the most efficient players listed above. That would take a more standard gamer 240-300 days to reach max lvl at 1200-1500hrs played. How does that sound to people? To fast? To slow? This seems like a pretty good time window to me. This would lead to a casual player taking over a year...or multiple years, to reach max lvl.
Regardless of whether you agree with these numbers, please be sure that you are stating the type of gamer you are referencing. It is better to estimate numbers for a couple of different "types" of players. If these types of estimates are based on just the "average" player we are missing out on the bigger picture and leaving out a good percentage of the playerbase.
As stated above, my 50 - 60 days played was based on an average player - playing 3 to 4 hours a day - for a year...
Not talking power gamers for my values.
Regardless of whether you agree with these numbers, please be sure that you are stating the type of gamer you are referencing. It is better to estimate numbers for a couple of different "types" of players. If these types of estimates are based on just the "average" player we are missing out on the bigger picture and leaving out a good percentage of the playerbase.
Wandidar said:
As stated above, my 50 - 60 days played was based on an average player - playing 3 to 4 hours a day - for a year...
Not talking power gamers for my values.
Understood, but like mentioned: " It is better to estimate numbers for a couple of different "types" of players. If these types of estimates are based on just the "average" player we are missing out on the bigger picture and leaving out a good percentage of the playerbase."
Liav said:Wow, this thread is horribly detached from reality. One to several years for a casual to hit max level? Enjoy playing a game with 6 people.
If it takes any longer than a month for the hardest core players to hit cap, the average casual will probably just quit. I agree that it shouldn't take 2 days, but let's be real here. You're suggesting we take EQ's 1999 leveling curve and multiply the amount of xp required by ten times or more.
Weighing the lesser of two evils as it were...
1) Players hitting max months before new content is available, feeling like they are at the end of what THEY can do (not necessarilly the end of stuff to do)
2) Players not hitting max for a very long time (which might frustrate some players... but at least they have something to do and don't feel like they are done)
I personally think option 2 is the best of those two...
Now - I also HOPE that with that very long curve players will just be enjoying a game that is becomong a virtual world for them rather than becoming frustrated with their leveling pace.
I want it to take a long time. At the same time, Pantheon needs to succeed as a game. A lot of the reason it took people so long to level in EQ is because it was new. Now we have gamers with almost two decades of experience playing similar games. We're talking about artificially lengthening the grind several times over classic EQ as a means to "erase" people's experience playing MMOs.
I'm down for a really long xp curve, I'm just saying that 1 month for the most hardcore could easily balloon up to 6 months for some casuals. Is that not long enough?
I don't know about the speed levelers but it'll probably take me 5 years of steady playing to reach max level...the max level of the expansion that got released two years ago, anyway. That's just kind of how I play. Couple hours a day, possibly every day but possibly not, and the second I see something interesting I will drop everything I'm doing to go do that instead.
I did tell my friend last night that I hoped they nerfed charm just so he'd slow down, though. He's a grinder and something of a min/maxer. He keeps making jokes about Pantheon's release date but I think once it drops he will get a copy in a heartbeat and stream his adventures.