I have a feeling that the people who think WoW was easy didn't spend much time in the later 5 man dungeons or early Molten Core. They were great challenges. Far more challenging than what I experienced in EverQuest's dungeons and the majority of the raids.
I suppose the solo progression was the easy part, and yes, Pantheon seems to be going in a different direction there, but that alone isn't enough to write off the WoW population. I'm very much interested in both. Many others will be.
grumble said:I have a feeling that the people who think WoW was easy didn't spend much time in the later 5 man dungeons or early Molten Core. They were great challenges. Far more challenging than what I experienced in EverQuest's dungeons and the majority of the raids.
I suppose the solo progression was the easy part, and yes, Pantheon seems to be going in a different direction there, but that alone isn't enough to write off the WoW population. I'm very much interested in both. Many others will be.
I played WoW from beta until about 5 months after launch...did enough UBRS, Stratholme and Molten core raiding to say it was not any more difficult than EQ's raids. Now if we are talking about the raids after molten core I cannot say since I quit for about a year due to RL situation so I missed what came after such as Ahn Quiraj or Naxx. From what I have heard the original Naxx (not the Wrath version which was fairly easy) was insane...far more difficult than any other MMO raid.
But talking about Molten Core being more challenging than EQ's raids makes me wonder how much raiding you did in EQ. I wasn't a top tier MMORPG raider until WoW's Wrath of the Lich King so I cannot speak on the most difficult content of EverQuest but from what I saw most of the planes (fear, hate, sky) had very tough content that rivaled anything Molten Core could offer (all things considered when the content was current). Naxx on the other hand...I think it was less than 1% of the WoW playerbase that saw that content or managed to clear any of it...it shows how extreme the devs of WoW were willing to go for the hardcore raid crowd back then. I did start playing WoW again about midway thru BC, I can safely say Kael was harder than anything I saw in EQ, same goes for heroic 25 man ICC in Wrath. But Molten Core? At most I'd say it was equivalent in challenge.
The bottom line is WoW was in fact extremely easy until max level raiding. Would I play the original WoW again? Depends on if it is a PvP server without the battlegrounds...that was some of the most fun I ever had in an MMORPG. I doubt the classic WoW server will do that though, in fact I doubt it will be a true classic experience though I hope I'm wrong about that! Pantheon has a lot more to offer me since it is a new game, a new world, with group content in mind.
philo said:kellindil said:It'll be fun to have rounds of "Spot the WoW kids" when Pantheon launches. (by kids I mean kids who's first MMO experience, and probably only MMO experience was WoW)
This sounds like a horribly inappropriate, yet amusing game... >;)
ROFL, why inappropriate? It's not derogitory, not exactly anyways. I am SURE there will be that group who knows nothing but WoW that gets into the game and will be spamming general chat with "Where do I find quests?", "How do you open the map?", "Where do I go?", "Why isn't there a quest line to follow?", "Where are all the quests givers?", "What's a camp?", "Why is everyone running to the entrance with 300 mobs chasing them!?!??", or "Whats a train?"
To this I say, "Oops, there's the WoW kid. Poor guy." Then explain to him that he stepped into the true world of MMOS, Welcome, and answer his question :p
Hopefully they see the game for the gem it will be and stick around and get the experience we got back in EQ and such.
This question is always funny. So many children think Wow was the first MMO and that Wow is the end all to MMO's.
WoW was just a dumbed down copy of original EQ with cartoony characters and carebear mechanics. Targetted towards a new crop of children that were graduating from their starting console binky's.
Get over it kids, WoW was a Joe Camel stylized shiny object for pre-teens. Packaged as a non-threatening Saturday morning cartoon show.
Liav said:The only observable fact that I see is that this forum is 90% circlejerking about how new games are bad, 10% anything relevant to Pantheon.
Wow are you the king of overexageration or what? First calling discussion about the shortcomings of games you apparently like - toxic conversation.
First off lets leave toxic for serious toxic conversation regarding racism, bigotry, fat-shaming, etc. In fact YOU are now the one being pseudo-toxic.
Second, just because you don't like the answers being forwarded does not make them wrong.
It's like finding out that great new song you like was really written 50 years ago and has been done already by 5 previous artists. And done better. Thus is the mistake of youth. Most things today are based on things from yesterday, and the day before yesterday. There is an old adage, those that do not learn from history will most likely repeat it. Do your research.
Third, many many new games have some very bad modern elements in them. Monetization schemes, random crate gambling schemes, triggers for those that think they are naturally lucky - you aren't. Games having an entire lack of skill required, just a huge reliance on simply mindless solo grinding for best in class gear - which frankly makes zero sense. But still you grind and think you have achieved something.
We get it, you were a kid, WoW was your first love, you have insane nostalgia for Wow.
But WoW was not first, was not best, was not amazing, was not mature. And it will never be any of those things.
And to put a true stake in the heart, even EQ is a copy. A copy of dungeons & Dragons. We all need to say a thank you to Gary Gygax. And that makes WoW now a copy of a copy.
The relevance to Pantheon is obvious from the initial post: there is risk of release overlap between Pantheon and WoW Classic, and resulting concerns over competing for a shared playerbase. Many people here are very much anti-WoW and all in on Pantheon, that's fine. Many are not, like myself, hence my release timing concerns.
Everyone on these forums wants to see Pantheon do well. WoW Classic is a potential threat to that, regardless of how different the two MMO's are.
grumble said:I have a feeling that the people who think WoW was easy didn't spend much time in the later 5 man dungeons or early Molten Core. They were great challenges. Far more challenging than what I experienced in EverQuest's dungeons and the majority of the raids.
I suppose the solo progression was the easy part, and yes, Pantheon seems to be going in a different direction there, but that alone isn't enough to write off the WoW population. I'm very much interested in both. Many others will be.
Wow spin much? WoW was/is very easy. Not to mention instanced, so hardly a comparison really. Cherry-picking some aspect of the game that came years after it's release is hardly a qualifier of anything. Especially after you easily acquired all that great raid gear to begin with.
And if you want to start comparing raid difficulties, lets make sure you played all the MMO's because I am sure many MMO's would have something to say about their 5-man raids.
I'm sure no game creator is writing off the WoW population, but if that means making their game easy for the millenial generation there might be an issue.
It's like a WoW players feel they earned a JD Powers award without realizing those awards are completely fake and handed out like candy, if you have the $50K for them that is.
grumble said:The relevance to Pantheon is obvious from the initial post: there is risk of release overlap between Pantheon and WoW Classic, and resulting concerns over competing for a shared playerbase. Many people here are very much anti-WoW and all in on Pantheon, that's fine. Many are not, like myself, hence my release timing concerns.
Everyone on these forums wants to see Pantheon do well. WoW Classic is a potential threat to that, regardless of how different the two MMO's are.
All very true. But most woW players will return to WoW simply for the nostalgia, not much will change that.
Most people here that played original EQ are simply tired of listening to WoW players, that never played EQ or Vanguard (and numerous other MMOs) pronouncing WoW as the first, the best, etc.
It's like that time when your teenager realized they were the smartest person in the world. And felt everything coming out of their mouthes was amazing insight.
Yes having a great fun MMO would be nice, but making games and MMO's specifically is very difficult. Gaming history is littered with the failures. Even the MMOs that stumbled out of the gate, but righted their ships only to find the parade had left and was not coming back to them.
zewtastic said:grumble said:I have a feeling that the people who think WoW was easy didn't spend much time in the later 5 man dungeons or early Molten Core. They were great challenges. Far more challenging than what I experienced in EverQuest's dungeons and the majority of the raids.
I suppose the solo progression was the easy part, and yes, Pantheon seems to be going in a different direction there, but that alone isn't enough to write off the WoW population. I'm very much interested in both. Many others will be.
Wow spin much? WoW was/is very easy. Not to mention instanced, so hardly a comparison really. Cherry-picking some aspect of the game that came years after it's release is hardly a qualifier of anything. Especially after you easily acquired all that great raid gear to begin with.
And if you want to start comparing raid difficulties, lets make sure you played all the MMO's because I am sure many MMO's would have something to say about their 5-man raids.
I'm sure no game creator is writing off the WoW population, but if that means making their game easy for the millenial generation there might be an issue.
It's like a WoW players feel they earned a JD Powers award without realizing those awards are completely fake and handed out like candy, if you have the $50K for them that is.
Liav said:The only observable fact that I see is that this forum is 90% circlejerking about how new games are bad, 10% anything relevant to Pantheon.
Did you read the title of the thread or any of replies?
It's about the release of "Classic WoW" which looks like it could be released just before Pantheon or at the same and if this will impact on Pantheon. So yes WoW will be talked about.
Bear in mind that all threads are filled with opinion, you may not agree but please only join in if you have something to contribute.
Personally (with regards the launch of "Classic"), I don't feel it will impact Pantheon, two very different types of games. If Pantheon is considered a niche game then WoW "Classic" will be even more niche. Initially I can see it attracting numbers but when players see all of the QoL addons/interface properties removed I don't see that many people stomaching it for too long. I played WoW on release and would not go back to a "Classic" version. Having 75% of my bags taken up with arrows and pet food was no fun! Keeping your mount in your bag. Paying 1000g for the epic mount when 10g made you feel rich. Complete lack of balance between classes will once again see PvP dominated by rogues stunlock I get cold sweats thinking about it! I had fun in WoW and still play sporadically. But it's a totally different game now. At best it holds my attention for a month at a time, which is solely down to the guild I am in. It was fun while it lasted but times change and WoW has for the worst. On top of all that I don't want to pay to play a 13-year-old game, in effect that is what you would be doing.
Does anyone really believe that Blizzard is doing this altruistically? They saw how the private vanilla servers did and they want (as is their right) a piece of that pie. They have already acknowledged hiring new staff for this project so will said servers require a payment or be part of an active sub? So many questions still unanswered. What I do find funny is the amount people on various forums already asking for things that were not in "Classic".
I am just hoping Pantheon will be good, as for me it's going to be the last roll of the dice in MMORPG's. Too many have over promised and under delivered.
Have a good one!
What is particularly funny about people asking for things being added to classic WoW is that they have an official classic WoW subforum, but it requires an active subscription to post. I imagine most of the people that will play on classic for more than a month don't have active WoW subs, so I hope they don't get too distracted by that.
I'm confident that WoW Classic will indeed be very classic, even harder than the popular emulated servers since they're on the pre-TBC patch with much more powerful talents and better class balance. They should understand that they're not making it for their current subs, they're making it for the millions they've lost.
Someday we'll probably want vanilla Pantheon servers too. :)
Jazznblues said:Liav said:The only observable fact that I see is that this forum is 90% circlejerking about how new games are bad, 10% anything relevant to Pantheon.
Did you read the title of the thread or any of replies?
It's about the release of "Classic WoW" which looks like it could be released just before Pantheon or at the same and if this will impact on Pantheon. So yes WoW will be talked about.
Bear in mind that all threads are filled with opinion, you may not agree but please only join in if you have something to contribute.
Personally (with regards the launch of "Classic"), I don't feel it will impact Pantheon, two very different types of games. If Pantheon is considered a niche game then WoW "Classic" will be even more niche. Initially I can see it attracting numbers but when players see all of the QoL addons/interface properties removed I don't see that many people stomaching it for too long. I played WoW on release and would not go back to a "Classic" version. Having 75% of my bags taken up with arrows and pet food was no fun! Keeping your mount in your bag. Paying 1000g for the epic mount when 10g made you feel rich. Complete lack of balance between classes will once again see PvP dominated by rogues stunlock I get cold sweats thinking about it! I had fun in WoW and still play sporadically. But it's a totally different game now. At best it holds my attention for a month at a time, which is solely down to the guild I am in. It was fun while it lasted but times change and WoW has for the worst. On top of all that I don't want to pay to play a 13-year-old game, in effect that is what you would be doing.
Does anyone really believe that Blizzard is doing this altruistically? They saw how the private vanilla servers did and they want (as is their right) a piece of that pie. They have already acknowledged hiring new staff for this project so will said servers require a payment or be part of an active sub? So many questions still unanswered. What I do find funny is the amount people on various forums already asking for things that were not in "Classic".
I am just hoping Pantheon will be good, as for me it's going to be the last roll of the dice in MMORPG's. Too many have over promised and under delivered.
Have a good one!
I am in agreement regarding WoW classic not impacting Pantheon. I think Pantheon's own issues will impact it more than players indulging themselves in nostalgia. I could see many though, that might be watching Pantheon, not wishing to get left behind and forgo playing on "classic" servers to jump into the "new" game.
I continue to believe this post is off topic because it doesn't concern the development of Pantheon. That said, if you believe WoW classic will have no impact on Pantheon because they are completely different games, you may want to gather some additional information. As a longtime EQ player and longtime WoW player, I read these responses about how WoW is nothing like EQ, and I come away thinking you guys are deep, deep in an echo chamber of ignorance. I still love you, but maybe go do some more research about Vanilla wow before saying it appeals to a completely distinct player base than EQ or PRF. It doesn't serve anyone to cling to that kind of ignorance. <3
Amusing the way people compare game #1 to game #2 based on what the Raids were like. And all that "we'll the raid was hard" when according to Brad only 15% of the player base raids.
The Raid is not the Game... the raid is the fancy lititle choreographed dance at the end of the game, the little jig the receiver does in the end zone.
THE GAME is what the Raiders try to turn into barbie dress up so they can dance their jig.
As far as the two games releasing at the same time and it causing a problems for pantheon, as per my previous post "For Me" there is no compitition, I won't even consider Wow Classic. But for the global player base I have to agree with the OP any time you split a potential customer base you would take a big risk... if they launch simultaneously many will go to Wow Classic and may never give Pantheon a chance.
Nevermind, I just don't care.
WoW Classic will be great for people who want that. I don't. I want Pantheon, which is a different game and a different focus.
I think there are plenty of people out there with the exact same opinion and we don't really need to worry about WoW Classic.
I have done no research whatsoever on WoW. Just called up my memories from launch until a year or so afterwards.
WoW was better than EQ in a number of respects - it darn well should have been since technology had improved quite a bit and developers could do a lot more. But in the great majority of the things we hope will make Pantheon special it was a big step in the wrong direction.
All of which is irrelevant - spin and marketing are more important than facts in judging whether a game will sell though facts are more important in determining whether people that try it will actually stay.
Millions of people have played WoW - far more than played EQ. Many of them have had time to grow up by now, even. If even 1/10 of the people attracted by the idea of an old school retro game (old school to the people that grew up with WoW) can be persuaded to give Pantheon a try it will be a big plus.
Liav said:The only observable fact that I see is that this forum is 90% circlejerking about how new games are bad, 10% anything relevant to Pantheon.
WoW isn't exactly a new game anymore heh...but I get what you are saying. I gotta be honest I do consider the latest batch of MMORPGs to be awful with all the solo friendly cash shop "free to play" nonsense. I love the idea of classic servers...SOE should have done one many years ago but private servers had to fill the gap, same for WoW. Some people enjoy the original game and MMOs are not like the old console games where it stays frozen in time forever. I'm sure a lot of people here have played or are playing P99. The crowd here is indeed old fashioned and I'm a part of that "circlejerk" lol.
kellindil said:philo said:kellindil said:It'll be fun to have rounds of "Spot the WoW kids" when Pantheon launches. (by kids I mean kids who's first MMO experience, and probably only MMO experience was WoW)
This sounds like a horribly inappropriate, yet amusing game... >;)
ROFL, why inappropriate? It's not derogitory, not exactly anyways. I am SURE there will be that group who knows nothing but WoW that gets into the game and will be spamming general chat with "Where do I find quests?", "How do you open the map?", "Where do I go?", "Why isn't there a quest line to follow?", "Where are all the quests givers?", "What's a camp?", "Why is everyone running to the entrance with 300 mobs chasing them!?!??", or "Whats a train?"
To this I say, "Oops, there's the WoW kid. Poor guy." Then explain to him that he stepped into the true world of MMOS, Welcome, and answer his question :p
Hopefully they see the game for the gem it will be and stick around and get the experience we got back in EQ and such.
I remember an episode like that in Wow, guy was standing in this village, I was right beside him, and he was one of those that seemed not able to think for himself. He had been spamming questions about a quest..and other things. Finally he asks where the mailbox was. I piped up and said, its right behind you, turn around and look. :) I thought ...now there's a person that would be totally useless in a group or a raid. :)
Cana
There are currently around 10,000 people playing classic wow on lightshope, and another 6,000 playing on Elysium. This in no way touches on the market of players that refuse to play on a private server either. Classic wow will absolutely be as close to vanilla wow as they can get and will have a huge huge fan base. It will 100% take players from pantheon and if you don't believe that you are not intelligent.
I mean this in the most loving way possible, and I'm going to word it differently than liav.
Alot of the people that are invested in pantheon are very quick to defend it by dismissing other games as garbage. It's like you're being or acting as an elitist for a game that yo uve never ever tried. I, as many other do, hope that it is everything I want, which is why I pledged. However, ignoring the timeline of other games releases because yoiu feel you're better than them is absolutely dumb.
I'm one of the players that has been waiting for classic wow for years, and I will absolutely play it when it is released. I just pray to the pantheon of Gods that it comes out well before or well after.
TLDR. Stop dismissing other games it's a bad business model.
Porygon said:There are currently around 10,000 people playing classic wow on lightshope, and another 6,000 playing on Elysium. This in no way touches on the market of players that refuse to play on a private server either. Classic wow will absolutely be as close to vanilla wow as they can get and will have a huge huge fan base. It will 100% take players from pantheon and if you don't believe that you are not intelligent.
I mean this in the most loving way possible, and I'm going to word it differently than liav.
Alot of the people that are invested in pantheon are very quick to defend it by dismissing other games as garbage. It's like you're being or acting as an elitist for a game that yo uve never ever tried. I, as many other do, hope that it is everything I want, which is why I pledged. However, ignoring the timeline of other games releases because yoiu feel you're better than them is absolutely dumb.
I'm one of the players that has been waiting for classic wow for years, and I will absolutely play it when it is released. I just pray to the pantheon of Gods that it comes out well before or well after.
TLDR. Stop dismissing other games it's a bad business model.
Wayyyy before Pantheon was a twinkle in Brad's eye...I had this opinion of Wow. Remembering that the original Devs that made Wow, came from EQ. :P I didn't like their artwork, I didn't like their laissez faire attitude toward killstealing, griefing, harrassment (their Gms) I didn't like the...walk two steps to the next exclamation mark to get a cookie and a pat on the head for making that tiny, unchallenging effort. :P
Cana