It's worth noting that in every video shown by VR thus far, healers are almost perpetually OOM, or desperately trying to sit long enough to get off one heal before everyone dies. (when they wipe)
Heck, even in the most recent video, the shaman cast all his spells (which took very little time), the bar was empty, they died.
You can say pre-pre-pre-pre-pre alpha all you like, but they've had a year to fix this stuff, and it's not "fixed" which means... wait for it... it's not broken! This is the design. If you don't like the current pace, it's going to require changing the minds of the developers to address that, which most people are against because they want VR to hold their course with respect to their vision.
I don't think that's true at all. Balance and combat pacing is not the focus of current development efforts. I could very well be wrong, but I'm inclined to believe that there is a ton of room for change.
Also, what's true at very low levels is not necessarily true at high levels. I'm okay with more downtime at low levels provided the content is a little easier, relatively speaking. Resource management even in EQ2 was pretty rough at low levels, although EQ is still an extreme example.
I just don't want to sit out of combat for any more than a minute in an average group. Not unless the devs want me playing a different game on a second monitor while I'm in the middle of a group. If that's the pace of things at level 50, things will be bad.
It is way too early to say.
Wandidar said:Homercles said:I'm not a fan of Different rates of Health/Mana regen based on combat status.
This type of Resource Management is another aspect of the game that contributes to the "group centric" theme of Pantheon. Relying on others to regain health/mana is huge insentive for grouping. By implememnting Out of Combat Regen, you remove that insentive and take a step toward player independence (soloing).
I see concerns about taking too long to "med to full" after killing a couple mobs. I dont think that arguments holds water. First off, if your burning thru all your mana in a couple fights, your'e probably playing your character poorly. Learning to manage your mana/resource is a priority in playing your character properly. Secondly, if youre in a group, there is rarely a need to "med to full". Thats the beauty of the group. If one person needs to rest, the others can pick up the slack. The only time "Med to Full" is required is when you're getting ready for a raid.
Give me Bind Wound to help health regen. Give me Meditate for Mana Regen. Buffs, Songs, food and drink. Theres plenty of ways to increase your regen without implementing a mechanic that helps reduce your depedence on other players. Dont have the game do what the player community should be doing.
There is a distinction between what happens in group and what happens solo. I think that groups should be able to work together to mitigate downtime... which implies that there is downtime to mitigate. When you are solo, not having that group around you to mitigate downtime - means that you would be reduced to only the means you personally have at hand... and that you are probably subject to more downtime solo than you are if you are grouping.
To me, that's a component of what makes solo less efficient.
Correct. Grouping mitigates the downtime.
This is advertised as "group centric" game. Grouping should be the best way to advance. Soloing should be slower, more dangerous, and less efficient. Therefore, I don't advocate implementing mechanics that would make soloing easier, and Out of Combat regen does exactly that.
Homercles said:Correct. Grouping mitigates the downtime.
This is advertised as "group centric" game. Grouping should be the best way to advance. Soloing should be slower, more dangerous, and less efficient. Therefore, I don't advocate implementing mechanics that would make soloing easier, and Out of Combat regen does exactly that.
Would you retroactively remove meditate from EQ? What about hybrids with lifetaps and self heals that increases their self-sufficiency?
Blanket statements like this just don't make sense to me.
Liav said:Homercles said:Correct. Grouping mitigates the downtime.
This is advertised as "group centric" game. Grouping should be the best way to advance. Soloing should be slower, more dangerous, and less efficient. Therefore, I don't advocate implementing mechanics that would make soloing easier, and Out of Combat regen does exactly that.
Would you retroactively remove meditate from EQ? What about hybrids with lifetaps and self heals that increases their self-sufficiency?
Blanket statements like this just don't make sense to me.
Did you miss this part of my initial response?
"Give me Bind Wound to help health regen. Give me Meditate for Mana Regen. Buffs, Songs, Spells, Wands, food and drink. Theres plenty of ways to increase your regen without implementing a mechanic that helps reduce your dependance on other players. "
Out of Combat regen is a Blanket Mechanic that reduces the uniqueness of classes. I like class uniqueness. You pointed out class uniqueness, so I know you appreciate the merit. Classes should have give and take. Benefits and disadvantages. Mana/Health regen abilities are an additional way to differentiate the clases.
vjek said:It's worth noting that in every video shown by VR thus far, healers are almost perpetually OOM, or desperately trying to sit long enough to get off one heal before everyone dies. (when they wipe)
Heck, even in the most recent video, the shaman cast all his spells (which took very little time), the bar was empty, they died.
You can say pre-pre-pre-pre-pre alpha all you like, but they've had a year to fix this stuff, and it's not "fixed" which means... wait for it... it's not broken! This is the design. If you don't like the current pace, it's going to require changing the minds of the developers to address that, which most people are against because they want VR to hold their course with respect to their vision.
Really? The past year isn't about fixes or balances, it has been about getting the world built and the foundation mechanics constructed. Pre-alpha and alpha will be about balancing those mechanics plus more world building. I'd bet you that current spell values, manapool equations and all that have seen only a few adjustments, but nothing close to a full polish for sure. So yes, we can indeed say it is pre-pre-pre-alpha.
That said, if we're hitting beta and these issues are still around then we can bring up your argument about how they have had a year+ to properly balance.
Liav said:I just don't want to sit out of combat for any more than a minute in an average group. Not unless the devs want me playing a different game on a second monitor while I'm in the middle of a group. If that's the pace of things at level 50, things will be bad.
It is way too early to say.
A bit fast, that's only a little slower than early WoW's food/drink restoration.
Having the downtime also helps with content and max zone population. Respawns in dungeons aren't likely to be incredibly fast (players dungeon crawl to get to a camp), if players are pulling pretty much non-stop with only a minute in between then they have to make areas much much more dense or you might end up waiting much longer than a 3 or 4 minute downtime break as you wait for repops. Also, if camps are even remotely near one another and there is only a 1 minute downtime they will be stepping on one anothers toes far more. Casters could med to 50% in the time it might take for the next pull to arrive with short downtimes, which could eliminate the need altogether unless each encounter is made to tap all ones resources.
As long as it's faster to a significant degree, I don't really care about splitting hairs over exact numbers. I just don't want to sit out of combat for 5-10 minutes waiting for a Cleric with a huge mana pol to regenerate because we don't have the luxury of an Enchanter.
vjek said:It's worth noting that in every video shown by VR thus far, healers are almost perpetually OOM, or desperately trying to sit long enough to get off one heal before everyone dies. (when they wipe)
Heck, even in the most recent video, the shaman cast all his spells (which took very little time), the bar was empty, they died.
You can say pre-pre-pre-pre-pre alpha all you like, but they've had a year to fix this stuff, and it's not "fixed" which means... wait for it... it's not broken! This is the design. If you don't like the current pace, it's going to require changing the minds of the developers to address that, which most people are against because they want VR to hold their course with respect to their vision.
I has been stated numerous times by Brad and others that these kinds of mechanics will be determined through testing. In my conversation with Brad during Twitchcon, he said so again. Start off at one point and it is too slow, up it and the feedback or observation of groups shows it is too fast. At some point, they'll reach a rate that fits their vision. It isn't fixed now, because it wasn't something they were trying to fix. "Fix" being very relative here, as a system not determined yet can't really be considered broken.
Personally, 5-7 minutes downtime between every encounter on level appropriate mobs would be frustrating. 3 or 4 minutes between every 2-3 encounters with an efficient group wouldn't be bad. But that is just me and others might find that too fast or too slow and who knows what the devs would think. But as long as I don't find myself doing other things while "playing" a game and yet have plenty of time to interact with my teammates, I'll probably be happy.
All of these are good points. But all I can think of are the multitude of times I spent medding staring at my spell book in early EQ only to die to a wandering mob I could not see past my spell book..lol..:)
I hope we can med with eyes wide open on the surroundings and not inside a tome of magic...:)