Liav said:
Dispells? Whoever decided NPCs should dispell players in EQ should have been fired at the very least.
If a PC can dispell so can a NPC.. Remember EQ and the use of Clickies to fill out a few spots on your bar. so that non useful buffs would be dispelled leaving your good ones below?
Nephretiti said:What kind of penalties would YOU like to see?
I do not want to see an XP drain mob, or any mob that causes permanent loss of anything (xp, gear, account, alts, spouse, children, etc). As others have said punishment isn't any fun, there are times when punishment should be applied (for playing poorly), but it needs to be instructive, not fun ruining.
I like the idea of seeing players who receive damage, particularly avoidable damage be crippled for an encounter appropriate length of time. For example, if you're supposed to be in the rear backstabbing, and you fail to avoid the frontal club smash, a broken arm seems fair. While your arm is broke, you can't dual wield anymore and your damage is gimped. It stays that way until you are healed, or for in-game 6-weeks while it heals (perfectly...somehow). Similarly, casters who do not stop their insane damage during certain events get damaged and unable to cast efficiently until it can be cleared.
This sort of thing makes sense and encourages players to pay attention and react to the encounter. I'm very much for this. It adds some level of challenge, but also avoids turning the game into a button mashathon. Also I've been a cleric for a long time and I get tired of healing dummies who take unnecessary damage when i could be doing something other than healing and sitting on the floor.
Demostorm said: ... Remember EQ and the use of Clickies to fill out a few spots on your bar. so that non useful buffs would be dispelled leaving your good ones below?
Yep, and that would be a great mechanic if there was no recast timer on MGB. But there was, and rebuffing an entire raid one person or even one group at a time was the epitome of tedious.
Why was this necessary? Because sometimes you had to have your own negative effects dispelled or ALL your buffs were dispelled, and there was always someone who didn't understand, so you had to rebuff everyone after all the dispelling was done intentionally, or the target did it for you. Always seemed like a gimmick to me anyway, given the ~random nature of dispelling.
DarthVoidPtr said:I do not want to see an XP drain mob, or any mob that causes permanent loss of anything (xp, gear, account, alts, spouse, children, etc). As others have said punishment isn't any fun, there are times when punishment should be applied (for playing poorly), but it needs to be instructive, not fun ruining.
I like the idea of seeing players who receive damage, particularly avoidable damage be crippled for an encounter appropriate length of time. For example, if you're supposed to be in the rear backstabbing, and you fail to avoid the frontal club smash, a broken arm seems fair. While your arm is broke, you can't dual wield anymore and your damage is gimped. It stays that way until you are healed, or for in-game 6-weeks while it heals (perfectly...somehow). Similarly, casters who do not stop their insane damage during certain events get damaged and unable to cast efficiently until it can be cleared.
This sort of thing makes sense and encourages players to pay attention and react to the encounter. I'm very much for this. It adds some level of challenge, but also avoids turning the game into a button mashathon. Also I've been a cleric for a long time and I get tired of healing dummies who take unnecessary damage when i could be doing something other than healing and sitting on the floor.
One thing to keep in mind is that the punishment only feels fair when it comes close to fitting the "crime." When players take damage for not avoiding an attack and/or get a short term debuff, that is a fair slap that fits. Do it enough (or enough of the group gets caught) and you risk a wipe and the penalties associated. Getting smashed by a club smash, sure a short term disarm/damage debuff is fair but having your character become lamed long term is too much even if healers can fix it. Same thing with casters - short term silences, counterspells, and possibly slow tongue are adequate punishment for not paying attention. These are things that encourage players to pay attention/play well while at the same time don't entirely cripple someone for making an honest mistake from time to time; death is the punishment for lack of attention & skill, taking damage and debuffs from enemies that are otherwise avoidable are little slaps to wake you up, the warning before punishment but not meant to be a punishment itself.
Demostorm said:Liav said:Dispells? Whoever decided NPCs should dispell players in EQ should have been fired at the very least.
If a PC can dispell so can a NPC.. Remember EQ and the use of Clickies to fill out a few spots on your bar. so that non useful buffs would be dispelled leaving your good ones below?
Yes, I remember it, and I think it's terrible. I just recently replayed that era in EQ and a few straggler mobs in the current era require it too. It's not difficult, it's just dumb because I have to carry a bunch of clickies that are 100% useless otherwise.
I completely disagree with the logic that NPCs should be capable of doing anything a player can "just because". That's what PvP is for.
Liav said:Demostorm said:Liav said:Dispells? Whoever decided NPCs should dispell players in EQ should have been fired at the very least.
If a PC can dispell so can a NPC.. Remember EQ and the use of Clickies to fill out a few spots on your bar. so that non useful buffs would be dispelled leaving your good ones below?
Yes, I remember it, and I think it's terrible. I just recently replayed that era in EQ and a few straggler mobs in the current era require it too. It's not difficult, it's just dumb because I have to carry a bunch of clickies that are 100% useless otherwise.
I completely disagree with the logic that NPCs should be capable of doing anything a player can "just because". That's what PvP is for.
Cromodracs in skyfire are the worst. Aoe dispel. May as well just fight them buffless.
Yes, I remember it, and I think it's terrible. I just recently replayed that era in EQ and a few straggler mobs in the current era require it too. It's not difficult, it's just dumb because I have to carry a bunch of clickies that are 100% useless otherwise.
I completely disagree with the logic that NPCs should be capable of doing anything a player can "just because". That's what PvP is for.
That was because the cancel was static and went down the line to allow you to cast junk buffs to trivialize it, imagine if it was randomized and you didn't have control over what got dispelled.
Xxar said:That was because the cancel was static and went down the line to allow you to cast junk buffs to trivialize it, imagine if it was randomized and you didn't have control over what got dispelled.
That would be even worse. A mechanic that does not offer an opportunity for counterplay is terrible game design, especially with how huge of a burden on time/resources it was to rebuff in early EQ.
FWIW, random slot dispells did exist in EQ as well. So you either carry junk clickies, or you get dispelled anyway and the only counterplay is to ask for new buffs.
You can accomplish the same effect of a dispell (temporarily) by using debuffs, so the mechanic seems completely pointless to me other than to annoy.
Liav said:Xxar said:That was because the cancel was static and went down the line to allow you to cast junk buffs to trivialize it, imagine if it was randomized and you didn't have control over what got dispelled.
That would be even worse. A mechanic that does not offer an opportunity for counterplay is terrible game design, especially with how huge of a burden on time/resources it was to rebuff in early EQ.
FWIW, random slot dispells did exist in EQ as well. So you either carry junk clickies, or you get dispelled anyway and the only counterplay is to ask for new buffs.
You can accomplish the same effect of a dispell (temporarily) by using debuffs, so the mechanic seems completely pointless to me other than to annoy.
As annoying as this was, EQ alrdy had raid bosses that alrdy did this, like Klandicar, Sontalak, and some others, it was a nutrition fight, but overall they weren't that hard to kill im down for whatever kinds of fight the devs bring our way, cept for DT's simply becuase that was a crap mechanic and technically didnt bring any challenge into the game cept for the unavoidable deaths.
Riahuf22 said:As annoying as this was, EQ alrdy had raid bosses that alrdy did this, like Klandicar, Sontalak, and some others, it was a nutrition fight, but overall they weren't that hard to kill im down for whatever kinds of fight the devs bring our way, cept for DT's simply becuase that was a crap mechanic and technically didnt bring any challenge into the game cept for the unavoidable deaths.
I'm aware that EQ had these fights. I've done these fights. That's why I think the mechanic is garbage.
Liav said:Riahuf22 said:As annoying as this was, EQ alrdy had raid bosses that alrdy did this, like Klandicar, Sontalak, and some others, it was a nutrition fight, but overall they weren't that hard to kill im down for whatever kinds of fight the devs bring our way, cept for DT's simply becuase that was a crap mechanic and technically didnt bring any challenge into the game cept for the unavoidable deaths.
I'm aware that EQ had these fights. I've done these fights. That's why I think the mechanic is garbage.
Lol i didn't like them either, especially when t was normal npc's that were doing a ton of dispelling, is completely annoying and very time consuming when it comes to rebuffing, but if they have it im okay with it, becuase mechanics aren't suppose to be enjoyed but endured.
I disagree that mechanics are to be "endured" as opposed to "enjoyed". Outplaying mechanics brings plenty of enjoyment. If we didn't enjoy overcoming obstacles, these games would be pointless to play.
For instance, rampage is a mechanic in EQ. If you handle it incorrectly, people die. If you set rampage properly and keep your ramp tank alive, you've outplayed the mechanic. If a mob debuffs you, you can cure it (usually). If you're doing PvP and you know your enemy can stun you, you can use a potion to make you immune to stuns.
These are just examples of mechanics with counterplay that reward you for overcoming them. Mechanics that are designed to simply waste time (dispells) or require death (DTs) are just awful design, though. It won't make or break the game for me, but I'd rather not see these mechanics ever again.
I'm basically for npcs being able to do whatever I can do. Draining exp might be a bit over the top, but I definitely want to see people charmed, feared, dispelled, knocked down/up/back, snared, rooted, slowed. I like vision impairment also like blurred or darkened. Something like confusion could be really cool that changes your listed buffs, makes text unreadable, makes it hard to walk or even execute the right abilities.
I'm not against charm, fear, knockbacks, snares, roots, or slows. Dispells to me is just something that's categorically different, and the reason for it is counterplay.
You can't cure a dispell. You just waste a ton of time and mana getting your buffs recast. I'd rather see debuffs that temporarily disable the effects of your buffs, but don't outright remove them.
Liav said:I'm not against charm, fear, knockbacks, snares, roots, or slows. Dispells to me is just something that's categorically different, and the reason for it is counterplay.
You can't cure a dispell. You just waste a ton of time and mana getting your buffs recast. I'd rather see debuffs that temporarily disable the effects of your buffs, but don't outright remove them.
So you're ok with a player character class being able to debuff a mob, but not a mob of the same character class being able to debuff players?
Kalok said:So you're ok with a player character class being able to debuff a mob, but not a mob of the same character class being able to debuff players?
Pretty much, yeah. Although I'm specifically talking about dispells, not debuffs. The terms do not mean the same thing.
NPCs can warp through walls to reach players if the terrain does not naturally allow for it. PCs can not do the same to NPCs for obvious reasons. Similarly, NPCs aren't sapient creatures and don't have the capacity to experience the passing of time, nor the ability to experience annoyance and tedium.