So we know encounter control will be an important aspect of Pantheon. This expands from normal major and minor forms of crowd control and could include things like a Druid's ability to control the weather in favor of the encounter.
One thing I have seen before in a few games is the ability to hamper/harm an enemies resource (stamina, mana, etc.). Is this something any of you have seen before too? Would it be something you would like to see?
Even though I have seen it before it is almost always very lackluster in its ability to make a difference and in a few cases doesnt seem to make a difference at all. On the other hand as cool as it sounds, if it was effective, would it run the risk of trivializing content? I really like the idea, but that could be a serious problem if you could effectively "dry up" all a Raid Bosses mana/stamina. In which case you just fall back to something more "design safe" like stuns or silencing to be somewhat effective without making the encounter faceroll easy.
Thoughts?
It was never as big a part of EQ as it should have been in my mind.
I would really like to see Debuff and Status effects be more vital to the overall game, I remember when I actually ended up parsing the differences in EQ on certain mob types between Debuffed and Not (talking outside of Slow, the Cripple type buffs/Strength Drains), the effects were minimal or in some cases not even parseable, that always just seemed wrong to me. I think mana drains or befuddlement (decreasing intelligence/wisdom) would be a great strategy to deal with Casting type mobs. Normally in EQ it was just stun them or DPS them faster then it took them to cast a 10s Cheal NBD.
Likewise i very much hope that caster mob types try to debuff/CC us in interesting ways.
It is my hope that both buffs and debuffs are VERY important to Pantheon as well.
But the specific type of control Im speaking of seems rare and rarer still that it is effective. Take Dark Souls 3 for instance. You have a freezing status that does small damage but is also supposed to decrease stamina recovery rate................ Yea it does it, but not effectively enough to use it as a strategy. PvP players will just laugh at you and PvE bosses still seem to have limitles stamina............. so whats the point?
Afraid
Reduces accuracy,perception ,increases speed
Asleep
Prevents the affected character from acting until he or she is attacked, force-fed the complex potion Awaken, or had had the spell Awaken cast on them.
Cursed
Causes any attacks or spells cast by the character to automatically fail 50% of the time
Diseased
Characters suffering from this, suffer a pretty bad blow to their stats,
Left untreated, it also gets progressively worse.
Poisoned
A light version of diseased,you can camp,resting or sleeping only for limited time as it will degenerate health
Drunk
Drunkards are pretty worthless in battle, seeing as their accuracy and INT takes a pretty significant nosedive while intoxicated
Eradicated
It's like being dead, but worse. Because not only are you dead, but your body has also been destroyed way past the point of an open-casket funeral. Players can no longer drag your corpse
Insane
Caused mainly by a select few enemies and sleep depravation
Might,Endurance, and Speed are all boosted at the expense of pretty much all of your Intellect and Personality, which
you probably wouldn't expect an insane person to have.Friendly fire enabled
Paralyzed
is a condition which will completely stun your character,making him or her entirely unable to act
Stoned
Entirely prevents the affected character from acting.drops all aggro on you
Can't take damage and after a few minutes you'll be overgrown with climbers
Might even gain a new minor pet bird that nested on your head
Unconscious
Happens to your characters whenever their HP falls below 0.
They cannot act, and are incapacitated, but there's still hope.
Using any curative means you have at your disposal, you can raise their HP above 0 to cure this
condition.However, if their HP falls to a negative number equal to their Endurance stat, they die
Weak
Characters which are in a weakened state have no stamina regeneration and gradually increased stamina costs, and their attacks do half damage.
Causes are numerous, and include enemy attacks and sleep deprivation.
I have seen several games with these mechanics, but they are usually so ineffective that most people ignore them and forget they even exist. Especially in faster combat styles, there's not enough time in a battle for it to really make a difference. I could conceive in slower, more strategic combat, if the numbers are balanced, it might make a difference. I think the problem still remains though that it you often do not know if a particular mob even uses mana or stamina. And if they do use it, you don't know how they use it or how much of it they have. Furthermore, even if it is making a difference, it can sometimes be hard for the player to actually FEEL like they are making a difference. And regardless of how useful the ability actually is, if the player can't tell that it's useful because the game isn't giving them enough feedback, then they're going to stop using it.
I think it could potentially add a lot of depth of tactics. But it would require a lot more balancing, and a way to make it easier for the effects to be tangible to the player.
Amsai said:So we know encounter control will be an important aspect of Pantheon. This expands from normal major and minor forms of crowd control and could include things like a Druid's ability to control the weather in favor of the encounter.
One thing I have seen before in a few games is the ability to hamper/harm an enemies resource (stamina, mana, etc.). Is this something any of you have seen before too? Would it be something you would like to see?
Even though I have seen it before it is almost always very lackluster in its ability to make a difference and in a few cases doesnt seem to make a difference at all. On the other hand as cool as it sounds, if it was effective, would it run the risk of trivializing content? I really like the idea, but that could be a serious problem if you could effectively "dry up" all a Raid Bosses mana/stamina. In which case you just fall back to something more "design safe" like stuns or silencing to be somewhat effective without making the encounter faceroll easy.
Thoughts?
In EQ1 most raid bosses had proc effects which didnt use mana but some did but drying outt heir mana was basically impossible, but they had it that way for a reason to prevent them from using it, but in fight like in NToV there were guardians and certain drakes you could do this too to prevent them from Complete Healing other target or themselves and gating away and summoning the tank with them, which could either kill your tank or wipe your raid depending on if he picked anything else up along the way. So basically it could be useful, but for most cases it was barely used, so it really all depends on how you look at it i guess.
I like the idea of mana draining, personally. It would only trivialize content if said content was poorly made.
For instance, let's say there was a mob with a DT mechanic that starts at 75% HP, it could be another role/layer of gameplay to give to some specific classes to increase their desirability in raids to circumvent that. An encounter like this would only be trivialized if that was the only mechanic to worry about.
Also as Riahuf22 stated, healing-type NPCs could be mana drained to prevent them from healing other nearby mobs on allied factions.
Mind Wrack for Necros in EQ is a good example, and maybe you could even give Rogues a poison with a mana drain proc or something. You'd be sacrificing some DPS for utility. EQ2 had mana drain poisons but unfortunately it didn't really serve that much of a purpose because EQ2's game design didn't really make mana a significant mechanic for NPCs.
@Bazgrim
Yes this is exactly what I would be afraid of. Its a cool concept but worthless if it is either underwhelming or not something you can "read".
The reason I like the concept though is because I think player resource management is important and fun, so it seems it should be the same for the enemy.
@Riahuff22
Nice! Im not very knowledgable with EQ stuff, so that was an excellent example of how it could be used. Thanks!
Just a shame it wasnt a concept that was useful often.
FFXI had some form of it but it wasnt very useful in most circumstances. Most boss mobs had 2 hour abilities (ultimates on 2 hr cd). They would usually use them at some trigger point (could be 50% health, could be when all adds die,etc). You could block some abilities (including 2 hours) by reducing the mobs TP (stamina) gained from damage using the passive ability (or gear stat equivalent) of Subtle Blow. It couldnt be used in all cases, but in some it was very effective at keeping a devastating 2hr from going off. An interesting idea, but useless in most cases, and better alternatives when it could be used.
EQ bards had a couple of songs that would drain mana, but the amount was fairly insignificant, compared to using a different song to boost your group's DPS. Or instead of draining mana, you'd be better chain mezzing to interrupt for instance...so yeah, they were pretty pointless.
I'd love to see mana drain being a significant attack, both by and against player characters.
@Liav
Mind Wrack and Rogue mana poisons sound fun!
@Corpserunner
Well you know me man, any chance to make Bard shine! ~.^
I hear what everyone is saying and I am seeing spells/abilities from different classes etc. But what remains consistent is the fact that these type of spells/abilities are rarely needed and/or lackluster in delivery.
Wish someone had a some more awesome and reliable examples. But it is what it is I suppose.
The problem with things like mana drains is they can't be efficient without it being forced as a required thing on a particular mob. I can't think of any instance in which focusing on draining mana would be more effective than a counterspell, silence, or any other means of just interrupting casting while focusing on DPS/whatever else. I mean, they could make mobs that deal more damage the more mana they have or explode upon death for their remaining mana or something if they really wanted to force some rare circumstances in which you'd need the ability.
I imagine that if resource management were important to mobs then it would hamstring difficulty or otherwise be exploited by players. There are only so many status' that tend to be necessary in a game as well. Slows, stuns, DoTs, Stat debuffs. Everything else tends to be more of the same just with a new name.
Fluffy said:Afraid
Reduces accuracy,perception ,increases speedAsleep
Prevents the affected character from acting until he or she is attacked, force-fed the complex potion Awaken, or had had the spell Awaken cast on them.Cursed
Causes any attacks or spells cast by the character to automatically fail 50% of the timeDiseased
Characters suffering from this, suffer a pretty bad blow to their stats,
Left untreated, it also gets progressively worse.Poisoned
A light version of diseased,you can camp,resting or sleeping only for limited time as it will degenerate healthDrunk
Drunkards are pretty worthless in battle, seeing as their accuracy and INT takes a pretty significant nosedive while intoxicatedEradicated
It's like being dead, but worse. Because not only are you dead, but your body has also been destroyed way past the point of an open-casket funeral. Players can no longer drag your corpseInsane
Caused mainly by a select few enemies and sleep depravation
Might,Endurance, and Speed are all boosted at the expense of pretty much all of your Intellect and Personality, which
you probably wouldn't expect an insane person to have.Friendly fire enabledParalyzed
is a condition which will completely stun your character,making him or her entirely unable to actStoned
Entirely prevents the affected character from acting.drops all aggro on you
Can't take damage and after a few minutes you'll be overgrown with climbers
Might even gain a new minor pet bird that nested on your headUnconscious
Happens to your characters whenever their HP falls below 0.
They cannot act, and are incapacitated, but there's still hope.
Using any curative means you have at your disposal, you can raise their HP above 0 to cure this
condition.However, if their HP falls to a negative number equal to their Endurance stat, they dieWeak
Characters which are in a weakened state have no stamina regeneration and gradually increased stamina costs, and their attacks do half damage.
Causes are numerous, and include enemy attacks and sleep deprivation.
I like the list. I am certain many of these will be in the game already. It would be great if all of them made the game.
Another idea:
Shaken - ('stuns' little cousin) - Occurs after being stunned or if you make a save vs being stunned. Typically lasts 1-3 seconds but can be longer. Interupts casting. Causes target to move slowly. Target can not attack or cast spells. Target can defend normally and move slowly. Screen is blurry through the duration of the shaken period. Can be triggered by deafening blasts, blasts of air, or any time a target is hit by non-physical energy. Physical energy typically stuns the target, who will later become shaken after being stunned.