Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Gaming Keyboards and Gaming Mice: Evil?

    • 510 posts
    April 24, 2017 4:01 PM PDT

    In game we won't have macros but what do you think about gaming mice and Keyboards? Should VR ban them? Or is that taking it to far? Will Kilsin be here within 4 posts to tell me their stance on this topic? Lol I searched it and only macro thread was behind a wall that I can't read. What's your thoughts? 

    • 345 posts
    April 24, 2017 4:07 PM PDT
    My thoughts on banning gaming keyboards and mice.

    "lol good luck"
    • 1165 posts
    April 24, 2017 4:27 PM PDT

    Yeah.  I think they'll just go with a policy against unattended gameplay.  Also, Naga thumb buttons own for these games.

    • 495 posts
    April 24, 2017 4:29 PM PDT

    Just put a global cooldown on everything, easy.

    • 643 posts
    April 24, 2017 4:52 PM PDT

    jpedrote said:

    Just put a global cooldown on everything, easy.

    oh hell no! GCDs are stupid, annoying and ruin the game totally for me. No thanks

     

    • 4457 posts
    April 24, 2017 5:48 PM PDT

    NEXTLEVL said: My thoughts on banning gaming keyboards and mice. "lol good luck"

    Yeah it's literally impossible to enforce a ban on certain peripherals. They are doing the best they can, which is not directly enabling that behavior. But choice of mouse and keyboard is entirely up to the player, as it should be. Hardware is not inherently evil. I will be playing Pantheon with a gaming mouse and keyboard. Not because of the macros (never really got into them) but because I like the way they feel. 

    Shucklighter said:

    Yeah.  I think they'll just go with a policy against unattended gameplay.  Also, Naga thumb buttons own for these games.

    Also this.

    • 147 posts
    April 24, 2017 6:15 PM PDT

    Sevens said:

    jpedrote said:

    Just put a global cooldown on everything, easy.

    oh hell no! GCDs are stupid, annoying and ruin the game totally for me. No thanks

     

    For the love of all that is holy, no global cooldowns...Honestly, very few spells and abilities should be on a short enough CD that a GCD would matter anyway.

    Like I get that it might help prevent you from casting ONE right after enough, but what I mean by my above statement is like this:

     

    In WoW a shaman of elemental spec can cast Frost Shock, it is an instant cast spell and slows the enemy for 6 seconds.

    He can then instantly cast a Fire Shock spell to put a DoT on the enemy.

    With the global cooldown, he can't just cast them one after the other instantly.

     

    But games like EQ and all the older style MMORPG's, it honestly...Doesn't matter.

    A wizard can cast Lighting on a 6-second cast timer. 

    The wizard might have one or two instant cast spells but they are so few and far between that it doesn't really matter if GCD is there or not.

     

    Tanks might use it for taunt, but spamming taunt isn't hurting anyone.


    This post was edited by Burnsmh at April 24, 2017 6:18 PM PDT
    • Moderator
    • 8950 posts
    April 24, 2017 10:27 PM PDT

    It is impossible to ban gaming peripherals, people will use macros on keyboards and mice to automate things but if it shows up as an unmanageable repeated action (in other words, the accuracy, timing and length of doing that process is inhuman) it may be caught by our detection system and deemed cheating and dealt with, so it is to be used as your own risk as it is very unlikely that a ban will be overturned if you try and say I used a G15 keyboard to harvest or crafter etc.

    We don't support automated anything ;)

    • 1639 posts
    April 25, 2017 5:32 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    It is impossible to ban gaming peripherals, people will use macros on keyboards and mice to automate things but if it shows up as an unmanageable repeated action (in other words, the accuracy, timing and length of doing that process is inhuman) it may be caught by our detection system and deemed cheating and dealt with, so it is to be used as your own risk as it is very unlikely that a ban will be overturned if you try and say I used a G15 keyboard to harvest or crafter etc.

    We don't support automated anything ;)

    Very nice, I am glad becuase i know people you use this and 2 box AoW on lockjaw along with a illegal program to man their 48 box army, but yet for some reason DBG doesn't ban him smh, by 2 box i mean him and another player adding up to like 78 characters


    This post was edited by Riahuf22 at April 25, 2017 5:33 AM PDT
    • 4457 posts
    April 25, 2017 6:04 AM PDT

    Burnsmh said:

    Sevens said:

    jpedrote said:

    Just put a global cooldown on everything, easy.

    oh hell no! GCDs are stupid, annoying and ruin the game totally for me. No thanks

     

    For the love of all that is holy, no global cooldowns...Honestly, very few spells and abilities should be on a short enough CD that a GCD would matter anyway.

    Like I get that it might help prevent you from casting ONE right after enough, but what I mean by my above statement is like this:

     

    In WoW a shaman of elemental spec can cast Frost Shock, it is an instant cast spell and slows the enemy for 6 seconds.

    He can then instantly cast a Fire Shock spell to put a DoT on the enemy.

    With the global cooldown, he can't just cast them one after the other instantly.

     

    But games like EQ and all the older style MMORPG's, it honestly...Doesn't matter.

    A wizard can cast Lighting on a 6-second cast timer. 

    The wizard might have one or two instant cast spells but they are so few and far between that it doesn't really matter if GCD is there or not.

     

    Tanks might use it for taunt, but spamming taunt isn't hurting anyone.

    Pretty much. Global cooldowns don't actually the solve the problem. One could still theoretically make a macro to automatically activate an ability as soon as the global cooldown is up. Yes, it would be a fairly slow macro - not the super fast APM of StarCraft or any game like that - but it still automates gameplay and one could even probably step away from the keyboard for a while. But meanwhile, global cooldowns severely restrict the amount of strategy and skill that is available to those of us that play the game legitimately. Having a variety of abilities available to you at all times makes the game immensely more interesting. Since basic attacks are already automatic, during the several seconds in between cooldowns, there'd be basically nothing for you to do. In other words, roughly 80-90% of every fight would be pretty boring.

    • 72 posts
    April 25, 2017 6:15 AM PDT

    Nanfoodle said:

    In game we won't have macros but what do you think about gaming mice and Keyboards? Should VR ban them? Or is that taking it to far? Will Kilsin be here within 4 posts to tell me their stance on this topic? Lol I searched it and only macro thread was behind a wall that I can't read. What's your thoughts? 

     

    I don't get it, is there something to use besides a gaming keyboard and mouse?...

    • 510 posts
    April 25, 2017 6:37 AM PDT

    Zahlhedren said:

    Nanfoodle said:

    In game we won't have macros but what do you think about gaming mice and Keyboards? Should VR ban them? Or is that taking it to far? Will Kilsin be here within 4 posts to tell me their stance on this topic? Lol I searched it and only macro thread was behind a wall that I can't read. What's your thoughts? 

     

    I don't get it, is there something to use besides a gaming keyboard and mouse?...

    If you read my OP you will get I am talking about the macro software that comes with gaming keyboards and mice. Looks like you can use them just not the macro functions built in =-)

    • 475 posts
    April 25, 2017 7:20 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    It is impossible to ban gaming peripherals, people will use macros on keyboards and mice to automate things but if it shows up as an unmanageable repeated action (in other words, the accuracy, timing and length of doing that process is inhuman) it may be caught by our detection system and deemed cheating and dealt with, so it is to be used as your own risk as it is very unlikely that a ban will be overturned if you try and say I used a G15 keyboard to harvest or crafter etc.

    We don't support automated anything ;)

    This is the best solution and thanks for sharing Kilsin. I use a Razer Orb Weaver as a left hand controller and a Razer mouse (forget the model). The macro functions I do not use, except to replicate pressing two keys at once with a signle button press (like mapping Shift+1 to a single key), but I do love to assign custom key setups per game. Its an increadibly important feature that banning these gaming keyboards and mice would destroy. Unattended gameplay is one thing and should be monitored, but don't punish those who play by the rules and just like to use the advanced setup features for personal custimization. 

    • 495 posts
    April 25, 2017 7:26 AM PDT

    @Burnsmh @Bazgrim

    I don't know what type global cooldown you guys are talking about, but the GCD's I know last between 0.5 to 1 second at most, and the timer starts when you beggin casting a spell or use an ability not at the end of it. So lets say a spell with 1 seconds cast time (or greater) would not be affected by the GCD, but an instant cast spell would.

    There were global cooldowns in all EQ spell gems, way bigger than the ones I'm talking about, and they only triggered when you finished casting a spells or stopped casting/moved. 

    If there are no global cooldowns then you can use all abilities/skills at the exact same time, in EQ this works out well for melee because there were so few to actually use during melee combat, all melees had kick and taunt, and then one other class specific attack, (rogue - backstab, monk - dragon punch and tanks - bash / slam). But lets use the Pantheon rogue that we've seen on the stream as an example, they have multiple abilities (check page 8 of the google doc for the rogue abilites) even at low level (10-13?), so lets imagine there's no global cooldown on all of these combat actions, the rogue could use Veiled strike, Leaking Wound, Kick, Backstab, Embed, Toxic Wound, all at the same time, it makes no sense making something like this possible, and this is only a low level rogue, immagine a high level one doing something similar with all the abilites he might have at this disposal.

    • 160 posts
    April 25, 2017 9:17 AM PDT

    I use a G-13 logitech keypad, fully macroable / programmable (gasp!). Same with my Razer Naga. Have used both for like 5+ years now. If I were forced to go back to standard setups due to a game disallowing these, I simply wouldn't play it.. Not that I've ever seen any game ever do that. Why? No, I don't macro out sequences that would otherwise be impossible for a human to pull off manually, I just like the setup, feel, and familiarity with the devices. If I can't hit 1 through 10 with just my thumb, I don't bother. And most keyboards are too cramped for my fat, arthritic fingers to maneuver around normally compared to the gamepad, not to mention the awkward placement of keys I often use anyway. The gamepad let's me program which key correlates to which keyboard control. Shift, Ctrl, and Alt no longer are a fumbling fail with my bum left pinky, they are all in comfortable, nicely spaced, muscle-memory spots on my pad.

    Any macro'ing "ban" is mostly achieveable through UI programming, as opposed to limiting choice in hardware.

    • 510 posts
    April 25, 2017 9:35 AM PDT

    Lokispawn said:

    I use a G-13 logitech keypad, fully macroable / programmable (gasp!). Same with my Razer Naga. Have used both for like 5+ years now. If I were forced to go back to standard setups due to a game disallowing these, I simply wouldn't play it.. Not that I've ever seen any game ever do that. Why? No, I don't macro out sequences that would otherwise be impossible for a human to pull off manually, I just like the setup, feel, and familiarity with the devices. If I can't hit 1 through 10 with just my thumb, I don't bother. And most keyboards are too cramped for my fat, arthritic fingers to maneuver around normally compared to the gamepad, not to mention the awkward placement of keys I often use anyway. The gamepad let's me program which key correlates to which keyboard control. Shift, Ctrl, and Alt no longer are a fumbling fail with my bum left pinky, they are all in comfortable, nicely spaced, muscle-memory spots on my pad.

    Any macro'ing "ban" is mostly achieveable through UI programming, as opposed to limiting choice in hardware.

    From what Kilsin posted, pressing 1-+ on your thumb pad will not get you a ban but macros could if they catch you =-) 

    • 136 posts
    April 25, 2017 9:39 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    It is impossible to ban gaming peripherals, people will use macros on keyboards and mice to automate things but if it shows up as an unmanageable repeated action (in other words, the accuracy, timing and length of doing that process is inhuman) it may be caught by our detection system and deemed cheating and dealt with, so it is to be used as your own risk as it is very unlikely that a ban will be overturned if you try and say I used a G15 keyboard to harvest or crafter etc.

    We don't support automated anything ;)

    Have simple in-game macro so I don't have to use my G910 8-).   Being able to click once in EQ and perform a forage/autoinventory/sit was my favorite while medding.  click stand, click forage, click open bags, click drop in inventory, click close bags, click sit ..... yuck!

     

     

    <<< My opinions are not humble, they are just my opinions. >>>

    • 43 posts
    April 25, 2017 10:02 AM PDT

    msk12 said:

    Kilsin said:

    It is impossible to ban gaming peripherals, people will use macros on keyboards and mice to automate things but if it shows up as an unmanageable repeated action (in other words, the accuracy, timing and length of doing that process is inhuman) it may be caught by our detection system and deemed cheating and dealt with, so it is to be used as your own risk as it is very unlikely that a ban will be overturned if you try and say I used a G15 keyboard to harvest or crafter etc.

    We don't support automated anything ;)

    Have simple in-game macro so I don't have to use my G910 8-).   Being able to click once in EQ and perform a forage/autoinventory/sit was my favorite while medding.  click stand, click forage, click open bags, click drop in inventory, click close bags, click sit ..... yuck!

     

     

    <<< My opinions are not humble, they are just my opinions. >>>

     

    Perfect example of a macro to get around crappy UI programming.  If the forage command simply put the item in your first open inventory/bag slot versus on your cursor you wouldn't even have needed a macro.  I'm all for banning macros if  the purpose is to prevent unattended execution/botting.  But the UI should be friendly enough that macros like this aren't needed in the first place.

    • 4457 posts
    April 25, 2017 10:08 AM PDT

    jpedrote said:

    @Burnsmh @Bazgrim

    I don't know what type global cooldown you guys are talking about, but the GCD's I know last between 0.5 to 1 second at most, and the timer starts when you beggin casting a spell or use an ability not at the end of it. So lets say a spell with 1 seconds cast time (or greater) would not be affected by the GCD, but an instant cast spell would.

    There were global cooldowns in all EQ spell gems, way bigger than the ones I'm talking about, and they only triggered when you finished casting a spells or stopped casting/moved. 

    If there are no global cooldowns then you can use all abilities/skills at the exact same time, in EQ this works out well for melee because there were so few to actually use during melee combat, all melees had kick and taunt, and then one other class specific attack, (rogue - backstab, monk - dragon punch and tanks - bash / slam). But lets use the Pantheon rogue that we've seen on the stream as an example, they have multiple abilities (check page 8 of the google doc for the rogue abilites) even at low level (10-13?), so lets imagine there's no global cooldown on all of these combat actions, the rogue could use Veiled strike, Leaking Wound, Kick, Backstab, Embed, Toxic Wound, all at the same time, it makes no sense making something like this possible, and this is only a low level rogue, immagine a high level one doing something similar with all the abilites he might have at this disposal.

    In regards to macros though, I still don't think that prevents them. I don't really considering macros to be casting multiple abilities at the same time. While that may be part of it, a macro is just any sequence of repetitive commands designed to automate gameplay. Any gaming keyboard/mouse I've ever used allows you to program a delay into a sequence of commands to compensate for any type of cooldown. So as long as the GCD is predictable, for example, I could just say:

    -Cast Ability 1

    -Wait 1.5 seconds

    -Cast Ability 1

    -Wait 1.5 seconds

    -Cast Ability 1

    etc. etc. thus automating gameplay. Fortunately, that sort of thing would be easily detected by the client.

    Nanfoodle said:

    Lokispawn said:

    I use a G-13 logitech keypad, fully macroable / programmable (gasp!). Same with my Razer Naga. Have used both for like 5+ years now. If I were forced to go back to standard setups due to a game disallowing these, I simply wouldn't play it.. Not that I've ever seen any game ever do that. Why? No, I don't macro out sequences that would otherwise be impossible for a human to pull off manually, I just like the setup, feel, and familiarity with the devices. If I can't hit 1 through 10 with just my thumb, I don't bother. And most keyboards are too cramped for my fat, arthritic fingers to maneuver around normally compared to the gamepad, not to mention the awkward placement of keys I often use anyway. The gamepad let's me program which key correlates to which keyboard control. Shift, Ctrl, and Alt no longer are a fumbling fail with my bum left pinky, they are all in comfortable, nicely spaced, muscle-memory spots on my pad.

    Any macro'ing "ban" is mostly achieveable through UI programming, as opposed to limiting choice in hardware.

    From what Kilsin posted, pressing 1-+ on your thumb pad will not get you a ban but macros could if they catch you =-) 

    Exactly. Re-assigning keybinds and stuff like that is totally different. If you have "1" assigned to your mouse thumbpad, it's interpreted by the client in the exact same way as if it were coming from your keyboard. That's just personal preference and it doesn't affect anyone else. The issue is basically when the client notices, for example, that it's been receiving a certain chain of commands with an exact, predictable delay in between each command, down to the millisecond.

    msk12 said:

    Kilsin said:

    It is impossible to ban gaming peripherals, people will use macros on keyboards and mice to automate things but if it shows up as an unmanageable repeated action (in other words, the accuracy, timing and length of doing that process is inhuman) it may be caught by our detection system and deemed cheating and dealt with, so it is to be used as your own risk as it is very unlikely that a ban will be overturned if you try and say I used a G15 keyboard to harvest or crafter etc.

    We don't support automated anything ;)

    Have simple in-game macro so I don't have to use my G910 8-).   Being able to click once in EQ and perform a forage/autoinventory/sit was my favorite while medding.  click stand, click forage, click open bags, click drop in inventory, click close bags, click sit ..... yuck!

    You could probably assign each of these to a hotkey on your keyboard and if they're right next to each other, you could easily cycle through them quickly. But I'm pretty sure you'd still have to be the one actually pressing the keys each time.

    From the FAQ: (10.5) "There will be plenty of / (slash) commands that players can assign to hot keys. Likewise, the GUI will be customizable. However, players will not be able to create hotkeys that automate playing their character nor chain a long list of commands together."

     


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at April 25, 2017 10:14 AM PDT
    • 495 posts
    April 25, 2017 10:43 AM PDT

    @Bazgrim

    Oh sorry for the miscommunication, to me macros are using various abilities at the same time with one click, and everything having a short GCD would prevent that. Creating a chain sequence of actions (spells/abilites) and automating gameplay to me is a completely different thing and falls under scripting and botting.

    Scripting and botting shouldn't be allowed. Don't know how this can be prevent, but I know it can be detected so a harsh punishment should be enough to discourage this type of activities.

    • 213 posts
    April 25, 2017 5:27 PM PDT

    Zahlhedren said:

    Nanfoodle said:

    In game we won't have macros but what do you think about gaming mice and Keyboards? Should VR ban them? Or is that taking it to far? Will Kilsin be here within 4 posts to tell me their stance on this topic? Lol I searched it and only macro thread was behind a wall that I can't read. What's your thoughts? 

     

    I don't get it, is there something to use besides a gaming keyboard and mouse?...

    Yeah that had me scratching my head too. 

    • 1639 posts
    April 25, 2017 5:44 PM PDT

    I know its a it off subject but lets say i ony make one macro as a warrior and i have it be:

    /activate Fortitude discpline lasts 18 seconds

    /pause 180

    /activate Defense discipline

    how this be considered cheating i know its a bit of a shortcut but i mainly only use it in EQ so i know when my fortitude runs out my defense automatically kicks in so i don't get crush by raid targets.  if so i could easily adjust to pushing 2 buttons no biggie but am just wondering in advance

    • 1735 posts
    April 25, 2017 5:47 PM PDT

    My gaming keyboard lights up. I have seen those mouses they seem way too complicated.

    • 1915 posts
    April 25, 2017 5:50 PM PDT

    My thumb cannot do more than three or four buttons on the side. 12 is way too much.

    • 1535 posts
    April 25, 2017 6:15 PM PDT

    I've got a proper mechanical keyboard because I do a lot of typing but I do have a gaming mouse. I doubt I'd use it for anything special though. Just seems like too much hard work. I've never really played around with macros in any game I've played before.