To provide some context to this point and give some backstory I want to discuss the inspiration of the idea itself. Recenetly a new genre of book has become popular in this last couple of years known as Lit-rpg Novels. These novels play out the story of people playing various MMO's in their respect worlds and how they impact them personally while acting as a vessel to tell a story.
It was in one of these stories that I first read of the concept of in game contracts between players that are upheld by their version of GM's. These contracts could be for exchange of property and services to secure the transcation legally within the game world. Imagine you are leading a raid group, but realize that this week several key members would not be able to attend. What if you could sign a mercenary agreement with a group of players to fill these roles? The raid group could pay a certain amount of currency and the mercenaries would commit the proper classes for the time period required. These contracts could be written to cover all bases for both the client and mercenaries with the contracted amount being put into escrow within the system to payout once both parties feel satisfied.
Another benefit of the system would be in crafting where groups of harvestors can sign an agreement with crafters to provide a certain amount of goods over a period of time at a locked in price. These agreements can only be completed in person and would be a good way to secure trades without having an auction house system. Auction house systems while convient have always made the process impersonal and easily abused by currency farmers. Contracts along with live trading would only help make for a much more vibrate economy adding to the flavor of the game and making it far more socially driven.
Solo players would also greatly benefit not being held back by being part of smaller groups or not having a top tier guild. If a player is trying to complete their epic weapon quest, but don't want to leave their small guild of friends they could exchange their in game currency for support from individual or groups of mercenaries to complete a task. In addition if you are doing 8 hours of dungeon grinds with friends, but need a healer you could instead hire one committing them to a term of service so that groups don't have to bring in players who leave after a single wipe only to spend another hour bringing in another player.
These are just a couple examples of how the system can be used and while I see there can be a few difficulties implementing the idea I feel the positives greatly out weight the possible negatives that would need to be addressed. What do you guys think about the idea of written contracts in a game that are enforced by GM's and what impacts do you think both positive/negative it would have on the game?
It is a neat idea, but as Kurgon999 indicated, it would pretty much have to be driven (enforced) by a mechanism of the system backend.
You could create a database of these “contracts”, that might put a restriction on entering into another contract or contracts (if you were allowed to have X active contracts) until either the last one was cleared or you manually dropped it. Any manual dropping of the contract could in turn cause a Rep hit of -1 (or more if there was a function to determine how important the contract was). Not sure if there is anything currently in the game design that this could be attached to for the Rep hit or if something would need to be created.
I could see using a Contract Rep system, where you could gain (or lose) Rep, depending on the amount of successful contracts completed or not completed. The higher tier Rep could allow you access to more contracts or special discounts (assuming you put up some money for each contract as collateral). Eve has a contract system that uses collateral.
I am sure there are a ton of things you could do with a contract system, if a backend were put in place to handle it.
Barnum
It's not a terrible idea, but I think the negatives actually outweigh the positives. The many potential flaws of this sort of system were pointed out in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4358/mercenary-mechanic-complex-trade-mechanics
I'm begining to believe that Bazgrim is an advanced AI construct designed to catalogue data....
So you hire a Cleric since your normal raiding cleric isn't able to play. The cleric you "hire" is in a small guild and has never been to a raid.
So you sign a contract saying if this cleric fills in, if the Cleric gets 1 item that is an upgrade in trade for his services, or the guild agrees to "pay" him for his time.
Ok. This cleric that has never raided comes along and he's Terrible because he's never raided before. He "stands in fire", dies in the first 30 seconds of every single fight, gets overwhelmed as to who to heal first and half the raid dies, over and over... Do you still have to "pay" him?
I hope the NEVER EVER put "mercenaries" like they have in EQ1 right now. NPC Mercs are Terrible if you want people to group.
I don't get it. Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. If the contracted person just doesn't show up, what do you do? send loan sharks after his mother?
.... wouldn't it just be easier to /shout Raid LFG Cleric and just explain loot rules, or "raid Looking for cleric" will pay you 200 plat for your time, but you get No loot...
you know, be social n stuff...the entire idea behind the game... I don't need a "contract" to heal a raid. ... Don't get it i guess
Once a contract is established and agreed to it's social value, it seems to me to then open the opportunity to monetize certain aspects of the game, and that- is RMT. Paying for friends.
The idea is expressed a little in this: as the saying goes parenthood is the only profession given to amateurs- and taking in the latin it makes sense for an amateur does it for love, (amat) whereas a professional does it for money. Parents still love when the money is not there. Likewise the game n the whole idea behind the game. A rope from a tree haning over a lake for 100 years- then someone says "no liability" and the rope goes away- save that attitude for the space race- oh yeah like they did in the movie "contact" sometimes- you just gotta lead with the heart and not build the safety chair.
Can a man make a contract with God! , the discussion in the old Movie "the Paper chase" (yes, there's one out there) If the player sucks, lets drive the knife home and call it breach of contract or non-performance. For how would a level 50 reply to the accusation of having pulled a train and killed the necro when they were 20 in a random group- is there no exoneration? like chickens in a coop that will peck ot the death another chicken if it shows the slightest drop of blood from an accidental wound. You show up in unrest, someone pulled a train, they zoned out when you zoned in, you turn around and leave- and the necro calls you out for making them lose exp. Better to just forget? one char per server and no server transfers- this is where this comes from.
Privacy laws in france. the british politician that was called out for saying things online or on facebook when they were 12 and how they hated their teachers or something.
I would take it a step further and say the thought should not be there- hoping for Karma or whatever to smite heavily and in a way where only with mine eyes shall I behold and see the reward of the wicked.
*edited- took out the Steely Dan verse from "barry town"*
zubi said:My guess is that Bazgrim has photographic memory.
This makes a lot of sense actually. Do you Bazgrim?
The level at which you can link related posts like this so consistently is impressive. Or are you just a forum-search wizard? Or maybe both ! :D
EDIT: Lol, after posting and re-reading this, I immediately imagined Bazgrim linking me a thread in some off topic forum in which this has already been asked and discussed.
Naim said:So you hire a Cleric since your normal raiding cleric isn't able to play. The cleric you "hire" is in a small guild and has never been to a raid.
So you sign a contract saying if this cleric fills in, if the Cleric gets 1 item that is an upgrade in trade for his services, or the guild agrees to "pay" him for his time.
Ok. This cleric that has never raided comes along and he's Terrible because he's never raided before. He "stands in fire", dies in the first 30 seconds of every single fight, gets overwhelmed as to who to heal first and half the raid dies, over and over... Do you still have to "pay" him?
I hope the NEVER EVER put "mercenaries" like they have in EQ1 right now. NPC Mercs are Terrible if you want people to group.
I don't get it. Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. If the contracted person just doesn't show up, what do you do? send loan sharks after his mother?
.... wouldn't it just be easier to /shout Raid LFG Cleric and just explain loot rules, or "raid Looking for cleric" will pay you 200 plat for your time, but you get No loot...
you know, be social n stuff...the entire idea behind the game... I don't need a "contract" to heal a raid. ... Don't get it i guess
Merc organization and individuals will develop a reputation within the server that will attest to their compotence. How many times does bringing in a raid member from general chat really work ? What if they get a single boss and leave starting the cycle all over again. The contract protects both parties and allows each to determine the guidelines. Just as in real life contracts are put in place to protect both parties the same applies in a game world. I simply don't see how having binding agreements between players in a world could be a bad thing. Not everything needs a contract, but if a simple tool were put in place than players could dynamically use it to serve a purpose when they arise.
Bazgrim said:It's not a terrible idea, but I think the negatives actually outweigh the positives. The many potential flaws of this sort of system were pointed out in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4358/mercenary-mechanic-complex-trade-mechanics
Two people walk into an empty open world dungeon where they both need specific but different rare mobs that are confirmed up. Indivdually they can't reach either boss alone and they can't kill them alone. They decide to agree to help eachother, but after the first boss is killed one of the party members says his house is burning down and he must go then leaves obviously screwing over his group member. Imagine if a simple contract could be written detailing that if one player left before both bosses were killed that their loot would be forfeit and transfered immediately to the player who stayed. You submit a ticket and the GM simply reviews the contract/log to reissue the item to the player who had stayed.
Now this may create more work for the GM which is debatable because a ticket may have been created in either instance, but this provides the GM a simple point of reference to help them make a decision. On the other hand it is a preventative measure to help avoid conflict all together and enforce a more positive social enviorment.
Kurgon999 said: I frankly think it is a waste of resources. I could see making it a "community enforcement" thing. Making it known that a given player isn't worth their word or whatever. But I don't think that the GMs need to micromanage disputes between players.
The GM enforcement would only be used in specific circumstances and for the most part its simply put in place to be a preventative measure to deter certain behaviors. The contracts themselves would have a few simple templates and a free form version. Agreement buttons would effectively sign the contract and make it binding. In the grand scheme of things this may be a very useful social tool that cool attach to a players account and hold players socially accountable with lasting repercussions. Maybe its just a waste of time, but i think it could solve issues and be a community building tool.
Lokispawn said:zubi said:My guess is that Bazgrim has photographic memory.
This makes a lot of sense actually. Do you Bazgrim?
The level at which you can link related posts like this so consistently is impressive. Or are you just a forum-search wizard? Or maybe both ! :D
EDIT: Lol, after posting and re-reading this, I immediately imagined Bazgrim linking me a thread in some off topic forum in which this has already been asked and discussed.
Lol not exactly. But thanks! I just read the forums a lot and I like to keep my brain active, so over time I'll read things that remind me of another thread I've read, and I can usually remember just a keyword or two from the title of that thread so I can retrieve it pretty easily. Plus I work as an investigator for a security company during the day, so I guess my mind is just used to gathering and juggling lots of information haha. But I'm still human just like everyone else :)
In response to your edit, the closest I can get is a link to a thread in which Iksar suggested that VR rename the forum search function to "Ask Bazgrim" lol: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5478/hard-core-and-casual-server/view/page/1
Feyshtey said:I'm begining to believe that Bazgrim is an advanced AI construct designed to catalogue data....
I take this as the highest compliment :P
Speaking from my own experience as a GM for another company, I can state that we would not enforce a services contract. Goods on the other hand are pretty easy to enforce and we would often suggest to players to "say". What it would entail would basically state that the party on the first part agreed to give Item A (whatever it is) to the party ont he second part for Whatever it is they were agreeing too and to have both parties simply whisper/text each other the same agreement. This was because we tracked every keystroke the players made. Whether in general chat or private or anywhere in-between. While we only enforce Code of Conduct in public channels (Gen chat, Trade Chat, etc.), we still tracked and recorded everything. EVERYTHING. We had like two cases when folks insisted one or the other ripped them off and by whipping out text logs and item files we could dcetermine EXACTLY who the guilty party was etc. and make things right on the fly. TWO. It became pretty apparent and fast that the old bait-and-switch scam wouldn't work and that anything you tried to scam would get caught.
As for services? That would just be too intensive. We would have to spend a LONG time carefully going over all the data files to ensure that nothing was being under/over reported etc. TONS of data files. and DB entries. That is just too expensive a use of resources. Still - I suppose if someone were willing to pay for the investigation etc. it might be an option. But it wouldn't be cheap (to the player).
Bazgrim said:It's not a terrible idea, but I think the negatives actually outweigh the positives. The many potential flaws of this sort of system were pointed out in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4358/mercenary-mechanic-complex-trade-mechanics
The answer to this would be an in game mechanic that was able to keep track of contracts and verify if they've been rightfully honored, and then upon that execute the transaction. No small feat for a small game development company.
Essentially you would need to build a tool within the Pantheon GUI that showed tables of variables, be these variables quests, items, xp accumulated within a group of players, events, actions etc, that allowed 2 players to agree on said things that needed to take place. So, for instance, I pop open the tool and click player X's name, want items: 10 bat wings, price gold 4 gold, and perhaps a time frame and if both parties hit execute, what would happen is, 4 gold would be deducted from my account, and if the player sent 4 bat wings to me by the time frame, he would get the 4 gold else the 4 gold is refunded back to me. It's essentially an in game escrow. The most difficult thing about this is building all the possible contract arrangements that could take place. But if one were to be built it would be revolutionary for the MMO genre.
I think this would work as a commodities trade system, but not as a merc contract service. You could hire them and use them for 8 hours and then just say they didnt comply to the terms. Where as with commodities you literally have to hand in the required items to get paid.
The only way i see this working is with having a timer triggered when you join the group. A simple contract to join a group for an amount of time. So the contract is 1 gold per hour with a max of 8 hours or something like this. Once you hit those timer marks you get that portion of cash. This could be a way for the mentor system to work also. Mentor me for 4 hours at 2 gold per hour at level 25 and a timer starts when you join the group at the required level/class.
I can still see this system being abused tho. /kick player after 50 min's. So you would get paid 50/60 ratio of cash for that amount of time spent in group.
I would totally help out for free. Some people would never help out for free. The best course of action is to ask for help, if literally you get no help then start offering payment on the side. You don't need a server side contract for that. I was just offering suggestions based on what-if's.
DJay said:To provide some context to this point and give some backstory I want to discuss the inspiration of the idea itself. Recenetly a new genre of book has become popular in this last couple of years known as Lit-rpg Novels. These novels play out the story of people playing various MMO's in their respect worlds and how they impact them personally while acting as a vessel to tell a story.
It was in one of these stories that I first read of the concept of in game contracts between players that are upheld by their version of GM's. These contracts could be for exchange of property and services to secure the transcation legally within the game world. Imagine you are leading a raid group, but realize that this week several key members would not be able to attend. What if you could sign a mercenary agreement with a group of players to fill these roles? The raid group could pay a certain amount of currency and the mercenaries would commit the proper classes for the time period required. These contracts could be written to cover all bases for both the client and mercenaries with the contracted amount being put into escrow within the system to payout once both parties feel satisfied.
Another benefit of the system would be in crafting where groups of harvestors can sign an agreement with crafters to provide a certain amount of goods over a period of time at a locked in price. These agreements can only be completed in person and would be a good way to secure trades without having an auction house system. Auction house systems while convient have always made the process impersonal and easily abused by currency farmers. Contracts along with live trading would only help make for a much more vibrate economy adding to the flavor of the game and making it far more socially driven.
Solo players would also greatly benefit not being held back by being part of smaller groups or not having a top tier guild. If a player is trying to complete their epic weapon quest, but don't want to leave their small guild of friends they could exchange their in game currency for support from individual or groups of mercenaries to complete a task. In addition if you are doing 8 hours of dungeon grinds with friends, but need a healer you could instead hire one committing them to a term of service so that groups don't have to bring in players who leave after a single wipe only to spend another hour bringing in another player.
These are just a couple examples of how the system can be used and while I see there can be a few difficulties implementing the idea I feel the positives greatly out weight the possible negatives that would need to be addressed. What do you guys think about the idea of written contracts in a game that are enforced by GM's and what impacts do you think both positive/negative it would have on the game?
This doesn't solve anything and, imo, makes the game less social.
Despite being someone that likes solo play more than the great majority of us and is supporting Pantheon despite the focus on group play not because of it - I agree with Keno Monster. Given the focus of this game, having mercenaries would undercut it badly.
Worse than undercutting the social aspects - it would undercut the goal of making content hard and leveling slow. Have a problem but have lots of in-game coin - just hire mercenaries and blow through it.
I suppose the last sentance could have been shortened to "what Bazgrim said".