Thinking about this as a big picture it seems as though the player is coming in at a point in time when the Lore is relatively "young" from the perspective of all of the races coexisting with each other. My question is, is this done intentionally to set up long term scenarios and growth in the game? Will there be world changing conflicts over time for future content, especially considering the last two races to join the world of Terminus are the Skar and Gnomes, who have the implications of literally destroying their own races? There seems to have only been 1 significant conflict, the Deicide War, and the two "worst" races weren't even here at the time. If the long term plan is for the players to participate in conflicts of historic significance throughout the life of the game as part of the "Grand Vision" for the next generation of MMOs that would be awesome. It would be like the Cataclysm and Pandaria expansions from WoW coming together and having a love child
I just find it odd from a historical perspective that the Gnomes and Skar have been added to the world and then the game starts. The Skar specifically would almost certainly cause wide spread problems for the other races of Terminus, Ogres and Dark Myr in particular which would lead to some sort of seafarring advancement and then causing problems for at a minimum the Elves and Humans. I actually envision them being similar in more than a few ways to the Mongols of the 12th-13th Century. Then throw in the Gnomes and their desire for knowledge and research in the arcane they also would seem very likely to be involved from a technological standpoint of either creating or trying to stop a type of mass destruction, caused either internally by their race or externally by another race. There are just so many ways in particular that those two "young" races of Terminus cause problems for everyone else, and from a development standpoint it would be amazing and a technological feat to participate in repeated world creation and destruction. Even going so far as possibly removing a race after launch because of "events" and any player made characters up to that point are the only surviving remnants.
I'm also curious about this. We've discussed the basic premise of Pantheon's universe on these forums from just about every angle and I think it's fair to say that, while some love it and some don't, most recognize it as untraditional. I've heard piece-part explanations from Istuulamae and, more recently, Jimmayus; howevever I don't think I've ever seen anybody explain the foundational rationale for why these decisions were made in the first place. Personally, I've long suspected it was, as you suggest, a practical business decision intended to ease the introduction of future content and that the internal inconsistencies were left as a retconning exercise for the lore team. That's all pure speculation on my part though. Maybe the universe is the way it is because of some totally rad secret storyline that we'd rather discover as we play. I'm not saying anything's bad or wrong, I'd just love to hear a little bit about the history behind some of the early decision-making.
Well, the Halflings, Skar, and Gnomes have been on Terminus for a few hundred years when we get in there, but I get what you are saying, Wemblack, and I do think it's part of the plan. They've set it up so new races have come to Terminus every 200-400 years or so, I guess, which means that at the time we get in there, a new collision is already due. That sets up expansion (or even raid content) perfectly.
I am hoping personally for the more extreme version of my suggestion. I hope that Skar and/or Gnomes cause so many problems they end up getting exterminated and that whole story line is the expansion 3-4 years from now assuming a certain level of financial success. That would be beyond unique in the genre. Unique quest lines for members of the race essentially "betraying" their kin. A legit server wide raid attempting to destroy a starting city? It would have to be a server wide event with how large some of these areas look. It's too different to be an accident, and there are some races that have arrived that have not been documented, such as the race the Ogres continuously go to war with. I would very much like to find out more about that, it's piqued my curiousity so much that I've contemplated playing an ogre to possily find out or play into that.
Shucklighter, I think you might be on to that. Maybe the next race that comes ends up being something that unifies everyone else and is a true threat to the world itself. That would be the most predictable course of action i think, and honestly is a nice fall back for content generation down the line.
I think it just seems young from our perspectives. We don't know much about the time of the dragons which preceded us, for all we know there may have been a whole series of ages where other sentient races fought it out on the planet until finally the dragons conquered and began their water/land war with one another. Hopefully we'll slowly discover a lot more about the past civilizations.
I remember a video Brad was in where he mentioned he wanted options for the story to grow, and give players the ability to influence that growth - to be a part of it. I think it was an interview from Boogie, but not sure.
Edit: Found link to interview Boogie2988 & Brad about Pantheon on his youtube channel. Keep in mind it's 2 years old. 30 minute mark is roughly where he talks about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZhAdmaqyT4
Couple of things to inform this interesting conversation:
1. When I took over lore and content creation, the concept of multiple worlds arriving in some form on the planet Terminus was already so ingrained in the public-facing story we decided not to alter it. I saw it as a challenge and great opportunity to create memorable story that made sense of these dramatic events, and thankfully it has become a hallmark of the world in front of and behind the curtain.
As to the true genesis of the concept I can't say with 100% certainty, because it wasn't my own. However it has never been spoken of internally as anything other than a really unique way of bringing flavor to the traditional fantasy landscape that "everyone has been here forever". Does it match up well with plans to expand in the future? Undeniably. But there are a slew of native things to pull from in the world as well, so much so that a new era of collisions isn't the first thing that comes to my mind when we discuss expansions or new content. But Shai, others, I understand your fiscal-centric read on the situation. I tend to take that approach myself when assessing anything someone is trying to make money on, no matter how pure of heart they claim to be.
2. The planet called Terminus is very old. Its stories are very deep. There is a meaning and reason behind most every single event, large or small. The bringing of new races to Terminus makes sense to certain actors in the world, albeit it being just as dramatic to most people there as they would be to us on Earth. You may not like the reason why they happened and I'm not going to tell you what should make sense to you as a person, but there are many inciting events that lead to the moment where the game starts, including when races arrive. Jimmayus can attest to this now: we have barely scratched the surface with the public facing lore of the world. That's my greatest joy in this postion: piling layer upon layer upon layer. Connecting one bit of story tissue to the next and to the next. Letting it grow and live and respond.
But a lot of that is meaningfully protected so that you all can encounter it in game. You have to discover it on your own. Because at some point this will cease to be "my/our world" and become yours in full. We're going to build in as much for you to encounter as possible for years to come that doesn't hinge on us bringing anyone new to the world.
3. The most puzzling thing about this conversation however is the read that Gnomes are destructive. I guess that stems from the violence in their past, but it is vital to note that it was the Prophain who survived and came to Terminus, not the Archanos, at least not in name. And the Prophain are the complete opposite of the Skar and the Archanos, at least in appetite and motivation. Even the Archanos were seeking primarily to grow in power and not just to destroy. The Prophain are heavily guarded against that motivation of course, because they've experienced the effect it has. That isn't to say Gnomes can't be destructive because they certainly can, but it is a warned sensitivity they carry as deeply as any other peaceful race. Hence why they arrived on Terminus and did nothing for 50 years. They've been here for over 300 years and haven't declared war on anyone, truth be told.
Hope that all helps and informs your theorycrafting. Thank you all so much for the interest and discussion. Been great to read.
Istuulamae said:Couple of things to inform this interesting conversation:
1. When I took over lore and content creation, the concept of multiple worlds arriving in some form on the planet Terminus was already so ingrained in the public-facing story we decided not to alter it. I saw it as a challenge and great opportunity to create memorable story that made sense of these dramatic events, and thankfully it has become a hallmark of the world in front of and behind the curtain.
As to the true genesis of the concept I can't say with 100% certainty, because it wasn't my own. However it has never been spoken of internally as anything other than a really unique way of bringing flavor to the traditional fantasy landscape that "everyone has been here forever". Does it match up well with plans to expand in the future? Undeniably. But there are a slew of native things to pull from in the world as well, so much so that a new era of collisions isn't the first thing that comes to my mind when we discuss expansions or new content. But Shai, others, I understand your fiscal-centric read on the situation. I tend to take that approach myself when assessing anything someone is trying to make money on, no matter how pure of heart they claim to be.
2. The planet called Terminus is very old. Its stories are very deep. There is a meaning and reason behind most every single event, large or small. The bringing of new races to Terminus makes sense to certain actors in the world, albeit it being just as dramatic to most people there as they would be to us on Earth. You may not like the reason why they happened and I'm not going to tell you what should make sense to you as a person, but there are many inciting events that lead to the moment where the game starts, including when races arrive. Jimmayus can attest to this now: we have barely scratched the surface with the public facing lore of the world. That's my greatest joy in this postion: piling layer upon layer upon layer. Connecting one bit of story tissue to the next and to the next. Letting it grow and live and respond.
But a lot of that is meaningfully protected so that you all can encounter it in game. You have to discover it on your own. Because at some point this will cease to be "my/our world" and become yours in full. We're going to build in as much for you to encounter as possible for years to come that doesn't hinge on us bringing anyone new to the world.
3. The most puzzling thing about this conversation however is the read that Gnomes are destructive. I guess that stems from the violence in their past, but it is vital to note that it was the Prophain who survived and came to Terminus, not the Archanos, at least not in name. And the Prophain are the complete opposite of the Skar and the Archanos, at least in appetite and motivation. Even the Archanos were seeking primarily to grow in power and not just to destroy. The Prophain are heavily guarded against that motivation of course, because they've experienced the effect it has. That isn't to say Gnomes can't be destructive because they certainly can, but it is a warned sensitivity they carry as deeply as any other peaceful race. Hence why they arrived on Terminus and did nothing for 50 years. They've been here for over 300 years and haven't declared war on anyone, truth be told.
Hope that all helps and informs your theorycrafting. Thank you all so much for the interest and discussion. Been great to read.
So, I'm guessing we'll have some people that we haven't yet met who -have- been on Terminus forever? Or for much longer than our playable races at least?
Shucklighter said:Istuulamae said:Couple of things to inform this interesting conversation:
1. When I took over lore and content creation, the concept of multiple worlds arriving in some form on the planet Terminus was already so ingrained in the public-facing story we decided not to alter it. I saw it as a challenge and great opportunity to create memorable story that made sense of these dramatic events, and thankfully it has become a hallmark of the world in front of and behind the curtain.
As to the true genesis of the concept I can't say with 100% certainty, because it wasn't my own. However it has never been spoken of internally as anything other than a really unique way of bringing flavor to the traditional fantasy landscape that "everyone has been here forever". Does it match up well with plans to expand in the future? Undeniably. But there are a slew of native things to pull from in the world as well, so much so that a new era of collisions isn't the first thing that comes to my mind when we discuss expansions or new content. But Shai, others, I understand your fiscal-centric read on the situation. I tend to take that approach myself when assessing anything someone is trying to make money on, no matter how pure of heart they claim to be.
2. The planet called Terminus is very old. Its stories are very deep. There is a meaning and reason behind most every single event, large or small. The bringing of new races to Terminus makes sense to certain actors in the world, albeit it being just as dramatic to most people there as they would be to us on Earth. You may not like the reason why they happened and I'm not going to tell you what should make sense to you as a person, but there are many inciting events that lead to the moment where the game starts, including when races arrive. Jimmayus can attest to this now: we have barely scratched the surface with the public facing lore of the world. That's my greatest joy in this postion: piling layer upon layer upon layer. Connecting one bit of story tissue to the next and to the next. Letting it grow and live and respond.
But a lot of that is meaningfully protected so that you all can encounter it in game. You have to discover it on your own. Because at some point this will cease to be "my/our world" and become yours in full. We're going to build in as much for you to encounter as possible for years to come that doesn't hinge on us bringing anyone new to the world.
3. The most puzzling thing about this conversation however is the read that Gnomes are destructive. I guess that stems from the violence in their past, but it is vital to note that it was the Prophain who survived and came to Terminus, not the Archanos, at least not in name. And the Prophain are the complete opposite of the Skar and the Archanos, at least in appetite and motivation. Even the Archanos were seeking primarily to grow in power and not just to destroy. The Prophain are heavily guarded against that motivation of course, because they've experienced the effect it has. That isn't to say Gnomes can't be destructive because they certainly can, but it is a warned sensitivity they carry as deeply as any other peaceful race. Hence why they arrived on Terminus and did nothing for 50 years. They've been here for over 300 years and haven't declared war on anyone, truth be told.
Hope that all helps and informs your theorycrafting. Thank you all so much for the interest and discussion. Been great to read.
So, I'm guessing we'll have some people that we haven't yet met who -have- been on Terminus forever? Or for much longer than our playable races at least?
Absolutely. Dragonkind, for instance. But there are many others.
Istuulamae is correct, I share the perspective that the game is wildly deeper than you guys know with a rabbit hole that leads to...the other side of the planet. Even when you learn it you're never gonna stop peppering us with questions concerning the deeper mysteries, I'm looking forward to it; it'll remind me of the countless hours I've already pestered Istuulamae on the why of things.
Obviously not every lore choice is because of lore considerations; being a game, certain meta considerations (like a quasi global society that can support a large class of murder hobos who fight monsters) are reflected in lore design. But those considerations are part of the challenge of making a good story, and having read the true history of Terminus I can tell you that mystery abounds.
I like this type of lore discussion though. In fact, I love seeing new posts in the lore forum here, and even though I'm not a big fan fiction person the dreams people have of the idea of Pantheon are inspiring. Thank you guys for carrying the torch, for being the vanguard.
Incidetnally, my favorite lore relationship (public one anyway, bwahaha) dichotomy is still the Skar and the Archai. There's something about their wildly different reactions to adversity that is intriguing.
