I could se it being more efficient on raids if only a few people like raid leaders and class leaders have it. Otherwise I prefer texting. If you are busy, there is no time for texting but you can observe if someone is playing attention and if playing attention a fast text usually is important like "Adds to the left" or my favorite, the hurried "Fraoin to Xone!"
Amris said:Sadly, things like this never say "optional". A 'feature' like this becomes mandatory per the player base.
I really can't think of a single instance in which this is mandatory outside of pro gaming and perhaps a number of raid groups, but that is regardless of in-game voice chat since they almost exclusively use third party software. Even in comptetitive FPS/MOBA games, if you aren't in a set group you aren't expected to use voice. It is often encouraged but never expected and nothing bad happens to you if you don't. More people don't like talking on mics than those that do, be it anxiety or otherwise. If you don't like talking to strangers on the internet with voice chat then you are still in the majority in the current day and age. Heck, how often does the average person call a friend for a minute vs spending 10 minutes typing out long texts?
Too much doom and gloom all or nothing going on here. Turning off voice chat might make 1% of all groups you encounter not accept you, but you are better off in that event. Raids? You will likely need it. Or at least get good at pretending it's on and just know what you are expected to do.
Iksar said:Amris said:Sadly, things like this never say "optional". A 'feature' like this becomes mandatory per the player base.
I really can't think of a single instance in which this is mandatory outside of pro gaming and perhaps a number of raid groups, but that is regardless of in-game voice chat since they almost exclusively use third party software. Even in comptetitive FPS/MOBA games, if you aren't in a set group you aren't expected to use voice. It is often encouraged but never expected and nothing bad happens to you if you don't. More people don't like talking on mics than those that do, be it anxiety or otherwise. If you don't like talking to strangers on the internet with voice chat then you are still in the majority in the current day and age. Heck, how often does the average person call a friend for a minute vs spending 10 minutes typing out long texts?
Too much doom and gloom all or nothing going on here. Turning off voice chat might make 1% of all groups you encounter not accept you, but you are better off in that event. Raids? You will likely need it. Or at least get good at pretending it's on and just know what you are expected to do.
I only play RPGs, and I find that groups get quite upset about the lack of VOIP use. They isolate people who won't use it, even if they allow them to stay grouped. If you DO turn on whatever VOIP is being used, it's a majority unrelated garbage and one person dictating everything.
It's actually one of the things that has made me lose interest in MMOs. :( I rarely play them anymore, and not for lack of time. Now I spend most of my time on Subnautica or Empyrion (single player) because of the saturation of voice chats and how it utterly removes me from the setting to hear Metallica or Lada Gaga blaring away on someone else's stereo while I'm trying to be lost in a game world.
Crazy. I can't recall a time in 30 years of gaming that I was ever required to or even had people get upset with me for not using/turning on VOIP for grouping. Raiding sure, that's been a requirement pretty much from WoW onward. But regular grouping? Never. I'm sorry you've had such a tough time with that.
Iksar said:Crazy. I can't recall a time in 30 years of gaming that I was ever required to or even had people get upset with me for not using/turning on VOIP for grouping. Raiding sure, that's been a requirement pretty much from WoW onward. But regular grouping? Never. I'm sorry you've had such a tough time with that.
I'm quite boggled myself.
Iksar said:Crazy. I can't recall a time in 30 years of gaming that I was ever required to or even had people get upset with me for not using/turning on VOIP for grouping. Raiding sure, that's been a requirement pretty much from WoW onward. But regular grouping? Never. I'm sorry you've had such a tough time with that.
Thank you. I think maybe it just stands out for me so much because I don't really like it. I do it for raiding, but at one point, I ended up with 6 different VOIP programs on my computer and one day I just realized how much I detested it. Not to mention the small spiral notebook I bought to keep track of passwords! Then someone actually started using FB Messenger, and people were calling into my phone at all hours of day and night. That was my breaking point, lol. Who the heck even got the stupid idea to use Messenger anyway? I will never ever understand that one. It's not only an awful app to begin with, but it was the worst of everything for this particular application. He liked it because he just used bluetooth and made the rest of us miserable. :p That was what, April of this year, I'm thinking? It took me less than a month to throw the towel at the whole entire thing.
It always comes back to "how will you know what's going on if you don't hear us?"
Oh, I dunno, maybe I could just know the fights and pay attention to what's going on around me? What a novel idea!
philo said:Yes voice chat reduces the sense of immersion in my opinion.
That ^ being said, if immersion is a major concern you should be playing a VR game. The level of immersion in a standard mmorpg is already so low that it seems like a silly concern.
I feel a similar way about people who have issues with PVP in a game that is primarily PVE. You are playing the wrong game. If PVP is a major concern go play a game that is more focused on providing what you are looking for.
If immersion is a major concern go play a game that is better at providing what you are looking for.
If you just don't want to have to listen to other people talk all the time that I understand...I'm not blaming it on immersion.
just curious who are you to say what immersion is or isn't for each individual..we aren't clones. I LIKE my immersion, I've been playing online games since 1995, I've paid my money for this game..to see it go forward, the tenets in this game are EXACTLY what I like what I am familiar with. I also happen to like the challenge that a McQuaid game provides. I've also pvped in many games over the years, too many to count. I should be playing a VR game..no this isn't the wrong game for me. If I choose not to participate in some of the things that others do..such as voice chat. I won't. I come from the time when there was no voice chat at all. Not any kind of adjustment for me..I type almost as quickly as I speak. I will pick and choose what I like to do...I'm not a herd follower. :) So immersion is my thing...and I'm not going anywhere. Don't like what I do...do what YOU like to do. To each their own...everyone has their own playstyle. There's no judgement here..or wrong way to do things.
CanadinaXegony said:
just curious who are you to say what immersion is or isn't for each individual..we aren't clones. I LIKE my immersion, I've been playing online games since 1995, I've paid my money for this game..to see it go forward, the tenets in this game are EXACTLY what I like what I am familiar with. I also happen to like the challenge that a McQuaid game provides. I've also pvped in many games over the years, too many to count. I should be playing a VR game..no this isn't the wrong game for me. If I choose not to participate in some of the things that others do..such as voice chat. I won't. I come from the time when there was no voice chat at all. Not any kind of adjustment for me..I type almost as quickly as I speak. I will pick and choose what I like to do...I'm not a herd follower. :) So immersion is my thing...and I'm not going anywhere. Don't like what I do...do what YOU like to do. To each their own...everyone has their own playstyle. There's no judgement here..or wrong way to do things.
If immersion is that important to you there are other options that will offer a more immersive gameplay. That is all.
Hasn't most of this community played online games since prior to the internet? Bulletin boards were pretty popular. That was pre '95...but I'm not sure how that is relevant?
If you are good with playing a game that might not be as immersive as something else, great. We all love mmorpgs. Stick to it.
Some people seem to be saying that immersion is their priority. If immersion is the priority there are some virtual reality titles that are currently offering a higher level of immersion than what can be attained with a mouse and keyboard and monitor. While that technology still has a ways to go imho, it is like comparing apples to oranges as far as immersing oneself in a game.
If immersion is important to you, all I can do is recommend that you try out some of the virtual reality options if you haven't. You can still play Pantheon too. You should still play Pantheon but I think you might enjoy some of what virtual reality offers.
Edit: I caught myself typing VR for virtual reality and then realized that it might lead to some confusion around here because it stands for Virtual Realms :)
Virtual Reality would be lovely. I look forward to when I can afford it.
In the meantime, however, I'd like for games to do their best not to ruin what immersion I can gain from their game.
Saying we should just go play vr games is like saying that we should just eat cake. I mean, if we can't have complete and total perfect immersion, we should just say, "Well, screw it entirely, then"? If I can't have a Ferrari, I shouldn't expect that the car I DO buy have a front driver seat?
Immersion to the degree possible through suspension of disbelief is a necessary component of MMOs to keep them engrossing. Having giants in the Commons was a way to create immersion... you were NOT looking at your TV while you were playing in the Commonlands. You could way too easily turn back to a splattered character. By keeping your mind in the game WORLD, not on your UI or on your TV because of the predictability of the zone, you were "immersed" in the game.
Things that detract you from the world itself break what immersion IS possible. Just as the more problems you have with your vehicle, the less enjoyment is taken from driving that, too... until at some point, you trade it in because it's more trouble that it's worth. We do not want watching the UI to be of more value from a gameplay experience than watching the world itself is. That is how it has become in, say, WoW.
Immersion is about suspension of disbelief and necessity of focus on the game WORLD. The UI should SUPPORT the game world, not BECOME the game world. Checking people's health should be about situational awareness, not about UI moddability. Being in groups should allow players to interact with the characters AS the characters/ in character, not become dependent upon a system in which they must listen to other people's TVs, music, etc. etc. while they try to enjoy the WORLD they are attempting to immerse in.
And vr does nothing to offset this. Playing a vr game online with other people is going to run into the same exact issue... people wanting everyone in VOIP so they can expedite communication and not be bothered with that "in character stuff".
EDITED for clarity
I understand Pantheon is geared towards the seasoned gamer. However, I have to say that I agree with the idea of no voice-chat as well.. I am a technology teacher for middle and high school and am highly depressed at the student's ability to both type AND spell. I believe forcing someone to type out that "25% health! please heal quick!" message as fast as they can in the middle of a stressful environment is a learning experience. I cannot tell you how much vocabulary I have learned from reading what others are talking about as well as TRYING to sound smart myself in games. Allowing people to use souly verbal communication will not allow the user's creativity and knowledge to grow since they will not use language that are unfamiliar with.
Amris said:Iksar said:Crazy. I can't recall a time in 30 years of gaming that I was ever required to or even had people get upset with me for not using/turning on VOIP for grouping. Raiding sure, that's been a requirement pretty much from WoW onward. But regular grouping? Never. I'm sorry you've had such a tough time with that.
Thank you. I think maybe it just stands out for me so much because I don't really like it. I do it for raiding, but at one point, I ended up with 6 different VOIP programs on my computer and one day I just realized how much I detested it. Not to mention the small spiral notebook I bought to keep track of passwords! Then someone actually started using FB Messenger, and people were calling into my phone at all hours of day and night. That was my breaking point, lol. Who the heck even got the stupid idea to use Messenger anyway? I will never ever understand that one. It's not only an awful app to begin with, but it was the worst of everything for this particular application. He liked it because he just used bluetooth and made the rest of us miserable. :p That was what, April of this year, I'm thinking? It took me less than a month to throw the towel at the whole entire thing.
It always comes back to "how will you know what's going on if you don't hear us?"
Oh, I dunno, maybe I could just know the fights and pay attention to what's going on around me? What a novel idea!
Think of all the new blood, MMOers who have play MMOs for 10 years + fighting solo from dot to dot on a map. When they do get a team. Its more a FFA combat. Games like GW2 where there is just one tatic, zerg. How long will you need to type to get them understand camp pulling tatics, CC, off Tanking and sadlly their class roll. Now do that every night for 3-4 teams. Ya, VC pls.
Nanfoodle said:Think of all the new blood, MMOers who have play MMOs for 10 years + fighting solo from dot to dot on a map. When they do get a team. Its more a FFA combat. Games like GW2 where there is just one tatic, zerg. How long will you need to type to get them understand camp pulling tatics, CC, off Tanking and sadlly their class roll. Now do that every night for 3-4 teams. Ya, VC pls.
Respectfully, I don't want to group with those people and explain to 3-4 teams every night... that's something that Pantheon has on their list... Pantheon is about making friends and sticking to the groups and friends you know, not having 3-4 teams every night.
Exactly what you are describing is why I no longer want to play MMOs at all. What you are describing is exactly why I say that voice chat becomes mandatory. AND it's why I push for making the game for NO VOIP and making it for LESS UI function. Because VOIP and "efficient" (read information intensive) UI use becomes mandatory. It doesn't stay optional for long.
I'm completely disinterested in playing the game the way you just described. Having to explain tactics to everyone I group with all the time? Whether in VOIP or not, I don't want to. I want to group with people who understand that they are getting into a world where tactics are king. If I need to explain these things to someone, then it should be a new person to the group who is happy to learn. In which case, I can call them, we don't need everyone in VOIP yelling instructions and arguing and blaring their music... which the type of people you're talking about tend towards.
The game is being made to cater to a specific taste. These "new" gamers who like what you're talking about won't be attracted to it for long, OR they will wise up and become an new type of gamer. Many of the gamers you're talking about don't like it, they too are searching for something. They'll either find it here and change to fit it, or they'll keep looking.
Sorry luddites, but it's 2017, VC is a thing whether you like it or not. If a group requires and demands you to get in voice then consider this a pro tip: that group probably sucks. In all the time I've played online games, 90% of the time I have never even been asked to get in VC in a PUG. The overwhelming amount of the time I get in VC it is for purely social reasons. And that's what this game is supposed to be about, no?
And the idea that typing is somehow more immersive than talking is laughable. What, are you guys going about your lives with a laptop strapped to your chest? Never mind, don't answer that. It's probably a typewriter.
Amris said:Nanfoodle said:Think of all the new blood, MMOers who have play MMOs for 10 years + fighting solo from dot to dot on a map. When they do get a team. Its more a FFA combat. Games like GW2 where there is just one tatic, zerg. How long will you need to type to get them understand camp pulling tatics, CC, off Tanking and sadlly their class roll. Now do that every night for 3-4 teams. Ya, VC pls.Respectfully, I don't want to group with those people and explain to 3-4 teams every night... that's something that Pantheon has on their list... Pantheon is about making friends and sticking to the groups and friends you know, not having 3-4 teams every night.
Exactly what you are describing is why I no longer want to play MMOs at all. What you are describing is exactly why I say that voice chat becomes mandatory. AND it's why I push for making the game for NO VOIP and making it for LESS UI function. Because VOIP and "efficient" (read information intensive) UI use becomes mandatory. It doesn't stay optional for long.
I'm completely disinterested in playing the game the way you just described. Having to explain tactics to everyone I group with all the time? Whether in VOIP or not, I don't want to. I want to group with people who understand that they are getting into a world where tactics are king. If I need to explain these things to someone, then it should be a new person to the group who is happy to learn. In which case, I can call them, we don't need everyone in VOIP yelling instructions and arguing and blaring their music... which the type of people you're talking about tend towards.
The game is being made to cater to a specific taste. These "new" gamers who like what you're talking about won't be attracted to it for long, OR they will wise up and become an new type of gamer. Many of the gamers you're talking about don't like it, they too are searching for something. They'll either find it here and change to fit it, or they'll keep looking.
In EQ1 over the course of many hours, we rotated different people in. RL keeps people coming and going. Key classes you are often forced to pick up someone you don’t know. I get that’s not what you want to do but I have trained many a gamer the ticks and tips of teaming in a trinity game. It takes way longer in type to do so and IMO, helping new gamers learn the game is just part of being a good community. People remember that and often become a reason why they stick around and it leans to what you said, playing with friends. Many a gamer I have mentored has become someone added to my friends list. This is easier done with VC.
itvar said:And the idea that typing is somehow more immersive than talking is laughable. What, are you guys going about your lives with a laptop strapped to your chest? Never mind, don't answer that. It's probably a typewriter.
When was the last time you heard a 5 year old girl talking trash with the voice of a 15 year old self-proclaimed 'hood' boy? That'd break your immersion in planet Earth in a heartbeat. And how about if that 5 year old girl were swearing up a storm in her male voice about something you have no interest in at all. Or maybe she's talking about something perverse and foul. For most of us, hearing the f-word come out of a child's mouth is pretty jarring, and it's the same thing to have to listen to totally non-Norrathian things when we're trying to focus on the game. (Or non-Terminus in this case)
Typing allows you to voice it as you feel comfortable, as well as allowing you to more easily put someone on your ignore list if they can't stick to the issues at hand. You aren't forced to listen to the external things going on in their environment, either... when you are trying to be part of another world, it's reasonable not to want to listen to someone's music (particularly if it's music you dislike to top things off).
Getting OUT of Earth is one bonus to playing one of these games. NOT having to be forced to hear music you dislike playing in the background of your game is a bonus to it.
Like I said, I do KNOW that VOIP is the future and we're not going to be able to stop it. I can still dislike it if I do, though.
Personally i dont think VR should waste time putting a voice chat system into the game, if people want to use voice chat there are several options in third party software out there already (ventrillo, mumble, etc.). That way they dont waste valuable time putting something in the game that isnt needed or wanted by everyone. I dont think voice chat itself has any impact on immersion, the only time i ever used it was is raiding situations and it was helpful, but no more so than typing, so in my opinion it all comes down to preference.
Nanoushka said: Typing isn't immersive in itself. Voice chat on the other hand can be really intrusive, I find it jarring having to listen and talk non stop. Gaming is my quiet time, like reading or watching a movie. I'd rather not spend that time with a headset on my head, having my experience disrupted. I get the feeling some people really don't understand this. It's not about comfort zones and just having to get used to, or pigheadedly sticking to 'dem good old times'. I like to get lost in the experience and voice chat very effectively prevents me from doing that. It can be useful, it can be handy, it's great during raiding or for a fun night with friends but it has its time and place and that means that I hope it'll remain an option instead of becoming a requirement.
For me its a tool. Im not a fan of VC as well. I just got two friends of mine to MMO for the first time. We have been playing SWToR together leveling up new chars. We didnt use VC till we ran our first dungeon. Thats when we had to go over their rolls, pulling, CC and all that other stuff. Few dungeons later we stopped using VC. Having an ingame VC option means you can help train the newbe within a few min instead of over hours. I would rather have the tool for when we need it, over kicking someone before letting them know what the team needs of them. Or waiting for them to install TS, find my server etc. Thats time I would rather a in game VC and go. When things are running smooth. I too would turn off VC.
I have never played a game in any genre where people expected you to join a voice channel while in a PUG. It seems people are worried that if there is built in voice chat they will be forced to be in it 100% of the time. This fear is simply without merit.
Personally, I will use voice chat when playing with friends or when raiding, but not in PUGs.
Amris said:itvar said:And the idea that typing is somehow more immersive than talking is laughable. What, are you guys going about your lives with a laptop strapped to your chest? Never mind, don't answer that. It's probably a typewriter.When was the last time you heard a 5 year old girl talking trash with the voice of a 15 year old self-proclaimed 'hood' boy? That'd break your immersion in planet Earth in a heartbeat. And how about if that 5 year old girl were swearing up a storm in her male voice about something you have no interest in at all. Or maybe she's talking about something perverse and foul. For most of us, hearing the f-word come out of a child's mouth is pretty jarring, and it's the same thing to have to listen to totally non-Norrathian things when we're trying to focus on the game. (Or non-Terminus in this case)
Wow, straw-man much? That has literally never happened to me. And if it ever did, there is this marvellous invention called mute.
I'm sorry, but talking about "non norrathian" things is exactly what this game is trying to achieve. It's called socialization. If you want hardcore roleplay where everyone is forced to be in character whenever in game, I'm sure there will be guilds and communities dedicated to that. But using immersion as an excuse to leave out a popular socialization feature (hint: immersion is always a terrible argument against anything due to its inherent subjectiveness) is a huge case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Edit: also I am struggling to understand quite how typing stuff out makes it any less possible to be a complete ass. It is just as easy to be profane and offensive in text, in fact if anything it's easier due to the depersonalization of just being a name on a screen as opposed to talking directly to that person.
This thread is pretty much the entire reason I stay away from RP servers.
I enjoy socializing with my groups and having a fun time.
You just can't enjoy a good time/game on a RP server without someone else telling you how you should talk/act.
I play to have fun beating challenges and learning to play better, not to increase your immersion.
I play games for about 30 - 40 hours a week and invest a lot of money into my setups. If I am not having fun, that's a big waste.
Beefcake said:This thread is pretty much the entire reason I stay away from RP servers.
I enjoy socializing with my groups and having a fun time.
You just can't enjoy a good time/game on a RP server without someone else telling you how you should talk/act.
I play to have fun beating challenges and learning to play better, not to increase your immersion.
I play games for about 30 - 40 hours a week and invest a lot of money into my setups. If I am not having fun, that's a big waste.
See, we understand each other perfectly! I could say the same exact thing about people demanding that everyone be in VOIP for a group. ;)
Although, I must say, quite honestly, that I wonder why you are posting on a thread about immersion when you care about the gameplay, not the immersion factor.
snrub said:I have never played a game in any genre where people expected you to join a voice channel while in a PUG. It seems people are worried that if there is built in voice chat they will be forced to be in it 100% of the time. This fear is simply without merit.
Personally, I will use voice chat when playing with friends or when raiding, but not in PUGs.
In DDO, if you were in a group with someone, they could talk to you on voice. And that game was probably way more group-centric than Pantheon will be. While it was possible to mute individual people or disable it altogether, it was generally expected that you at least be able to hear what was said by others in the group. "Have ears." Using your own mic was typically encouraged, but not usually required. It was never really an issue though. Rarely did anyone refuse to be able to hear other players. And if so, it was because they had all their sound turned off. It wasn't just so that they could hear the pretty music. People didn't complain about it breaking immersion. And rarely were groups formed where you would be declined if you didn't use your mic. I know this is a different game, but I think this whole discussion is kinda silly tbh.
Pyye said:One thing that has stood out like a slap in the face over the last few years, is when I play games I really like and get into, as soon as I allow myself to advance to the point of higher content with guilds and voicechat, I lose immediate interest.
I have a very difficult time enjoying a game to its fullest potential when the reality of human behavior overpowers my mind's ability to fantasize. I am really thinking that when I play Pantheon, I might start a guild called "Immersion" and not allow voicechat and encourage emotes etc... Sure it may limit abilities in raids or coordinated group play, but I KNOW I will personally get a lot more out of the game with my mind free to create.
I hope, truly hope, that I am not alone on this belief...
I would join that guild. :P
I understand the need for voice chat in some situations, but what I don't like is joining a group and being told VC or leave. I'll leave thanks, because anytime a PUG has insisted on VC, I find you have a bunch of grown adults that talk and act like 14 year olds, and think they are hilarious. Sometimes they say things that are slightly humorous, but it's liek a snowball effect. One says something semi-funny, the next adds to it and so on, then you have 30+ minutes of utter stupidity.
So I tend to stay away from VC unless it's a group of old friends. The chat stays pretty quiet and calm and mostly related to game, or the occasional "whats going on in your life" during downtime conversations.
Some of the most fun i've had in MMO's were in EQ or Archeage to date. So I have really thought about why this is and have identified why.
EQ- This was not a game where you could race through and level to the top in a weeks time. So often times, your friends would log in and you would put your ideas together on who needs what, then develop a plan for the night / day to progress toward that plan. An example could be: Cleric needed a drop in Castle Unrest for their epic weapon, Druid needed some faction boost with Brownies in G Fay plus a possible rare drop, and let's say I needed a drop in L Guk to advance on my sash quest. So we would meet at Freeport docks and head out for the evening, being silly and fun with txt'ing or emotes. Everything was done without the reality of each other's voices. The game was difficult, taking on multiple mobs where not an option without a well-balanced group. Wandering mobs were the norm and it kept you looking around and on your toes.
This is just one of hundres / thousands of possibilities because there was so much to work on in this game. And most of it you had to rely on others because one class could not do it all (another downfall with modern MMOs). I miss the days of so many goals that took a good amount of time to accomplish.
Archeage- This is a game that required group planning when managing your personal farms and resources in order to reach a higher guild goal. Although not the same as EQ, this game had some amazing features with gliders / gliding ability, and literally the best water graphics in any game i've played. You could build different ships and eventually set sail to the unknown, with potential danger around every bend from opposing player factions. It made the sense of danger and loss very real, which greatly added to the immersion factor. Game was ruined by a modified, "pay to win" cash shop :(