Raiding keeps getting referred to as a niche group of people or a minority in this thread and I am just not convinced that is the case. I believe the majority does/would(if done well) enjoy raiding; it's just to what degree. I think it is the lengths people are willing to go for raids that cause the issues debated here, not the raids themselves. And that's where it gets hazy. There are people saying ignore the minority, they are just noise. Forgive me, but that is just a tad insulting. Every opinion here is valid and angrily shouting "ignore the other viewpoints devs, the only ones that matter are mine and those that support my views" doesn't advance the cause, so to speak. In a political scene that would be a major element of fascism. The discussion between those who want certain things here and those with counterpoints has led to some very good ideas, many of which I, representing a raider, could seriously get behind. I like the Hyper/ghost thing. I think there is a good middle ground there that supports the exclusivity of the great stuff while allowing effectively everyone to experience it. Liav, I can agree with much of what you say, or at the very least that your experience of it is valid, but the hourly respawns makes top tier gear essentially something everyone gets. I just can't see that as a good thing. Nothing is special or rare anymore if everyone has it.
As to the progeny system, I gotta say that, as a newbie backer here, it is the one part of the game I am definatelynot excited about. I just don't see leveling and releveling over and over again as fun or compelling gameplay. I don't want to play Pantheon a hundred times on one character. And it really just comes down to who plays the most, which is intrinsically true of any MMOs, but before there was always a cap. You could only get so much great gear. If you can make your character incrementally more powerful with each generation of progeny I truly hope there is some ceiling to reach or cap, or those with the most time will be gods. Some refer to it as remort here, but my experience in MUDs with a remort system offered a different and much more advanced set of classes on remort. Which would be awesome in an MMO like this, but I didn't get the impression that is what it was.
Iksar said:Well as you know I'd rather see raids not be an exclusivity club at all, the difficulty of the encounter should be the filter between the haves and have nots. People are quick to jump on the "then everyone will be running around in raid gear" or "loot pinata" bandwagons, yet even in something like WoW the hardest raids are completed by just about 5% of the population or one particular tier in FFXIV history that was so tightly tuned that only 1% ever finished when it was relevant. Be "better" than other players by being more skilled, not by being in the right place at the right time.
I'm sorry but I feel that being in the right place at the right time is a very important element to the game. Should being in the right place at the right time only be a non-factor when it comes to raiding? Should ghosts be applied to every group mob in addition to raid mobs? Since being in the right place at the right time shouldn't be a factor, should we all have an opportunity to kill every single name that spawns and just remove competition for resources completely? Surely group content will be challenging enough to where player "skill" should be the only factor and not world awareness, right? If group mobs are going to be contested, so too should the raid mobs. Exclusivity is important. Resources should be limited, and being in the right place at the right time should absolutely matter.
In EQ, being in the right place at the right time is 99% of the game. You don't have to throw out the entire concept to skew things towards balance.
Group content is always more accessible than raid content. Once again, and I've pointed this out multiple times, there is a hierarchy to content and raiding sits near the top in traditional style MMOs.
At the end of the day, spending your play sessions twiddling your thumbs waiting for something to spawn is awful.
I enjoyed raiding in EQ. I never got into the end game in WoW (the quest hubs bored me out of my skull before I finished the free 20 levels.) And in most other modern games, "raiding" doesn't really occur. You do varying difficulties of 4 man dugeons. Then, maybe there might be a 12 or 20 man instanced mob to fight or some such. Compared to either EQ1 or 2 or DAoC or a number of other early games and, I assume, WoW; raiding doesn't exist as I know it any more. SWTOR had some Raids, though they called them operations. Still, felt like a 4-main dugeon but expanded. Stories were good though. Anyhow, I'm sure I've missed some game that does them. I haven't played every game ever. But what I did play was EQ1 until a few years ago. I think the last expansion that I played through all raids was Rain of Fear. Maybe it was Call of the Forsaken. Not sure. I lost interest when SOE started changing their direction and completely jumped ship when Day Break showed up and cancelled customer service via in game yellow text messages.
But I always enjoyed the working out HOW to defeat a particular event or mob. From the old open world mobs to the instanced raids of later day. But I'm also no longer a teenager. I have a wife and kids and a fulltime job. I can't do 3-5hours a night every night just to get the latest gear item or skill upgrade. But I want to come as close to that experience as I can without the extreme time commitments.
I'd like to see a balance of contested and uncontested raids. I agree world awareness should be important. But I'd also like to be to log in and schedule end game content with my guild and actually have something to do. Maybe all the contested targets are down but there are some spawnables or instanced or whatever that one can always target and the rewards may not be as good but we aren't left with nothing to do either.
oneADseven said:I'm sorry but I feel that being in the right place at the right time is a very important element to the game. Should being in the right place at the right time only be a non-factor when it comes to raiding? Should ghosts be applied to every group mob in addition to raid mobs? Since being in the right place at the right time shouldn't be a factor, should we all have an opportunity to kill every single name that spawns and just remove competition for resources completely? Surely group content will be challenging enough to where player "skill" should be the only factor and not world awareness, right? If group mobs are going to be contested, so too should the raid mobs. Exclusivity is important. Resources should be limited, and being in the right place at the right time should absolutely matter.
Two very different circumstances there. Named mobs tend to respawn anywhere from 30 minutes to a few hours where as open world raid mobs tend to respawn every 3 days to (more often) a week.
Iksar said:oneADseven said:I'm sorry but I feel that being in the right place at the right time is a very important element to the game. Should being in the right place at the right time only be a non-factor when it comes to raiding? Should ghosts be applied to every group mob in addition to raid mobs? Since being in the right place at the right time shouldn't be a factor, should we all have an opportunity to kill every single name that spawns and just remove competition for resources completely? Surely group content will be challenging enough to where player "skill" should be the only factor and not world awareness, right? If group mobs are going to be contested, so too should the raid mobs. Exclusivity is important. Resources should be limited, and being in the right place at the right time should absolutely matter.
Two very different circumstances there. Named mobs tend to respawn anywhere from 30 minutes to a few hours where as open world raid mobs tend to respawn every 3 days to (more often) a week.
In EQ it was very much the same thing. I remember guilds monopolizing camps on a regular basis, swapping out guildmates as someone had to leave, and effectively locking down the encounter for days or even weeks at a time. Frenzied Ghoul comes to mind from original release, and that kind of thing continued for several expansions when I left the game.
Feyshtey said:In EQ it was very much the same thing. I remember guilds monopolizing camps on a regular basis, swapping out guildmates as someone had to leave, and effectively locking down the encounter for days or even weeks at a time. Frenzied Ghoul comes to mind from original release, and that kind of thing continued for several expansions when I left the game.
I noticed that happen much more in P1999 than I ever remember on my server for EQ, never had too much issue getting into frenzy etc. Anyway the key difference again is that (in the past) named mobs typically drop tradeable items, so even if you couldn't for whatever reason get into the camp with the item you want it would always filter to the market eventually. At the very least you could camp somewhere else and sell the drops to pay for the other item.
The most important thing will be how commited to the proposed vision they are and to what extent it goes: "We also want to make sure there will be plenty of great items and choices for adventuring all over the world – for example, we want to avoid there being just a single sought-after item for a specific class at a specific level. Similarly powerful and valued items will be available elsewhere in the world." For the higher group content it's possible they could have lockout timers to limit guild domination.
I broadly agree with just about everyone in today's discussion :)
Regarding exclusivity - I think some things do need to have some exclusivity. That said, I think spawns need to be unpredictable enough that a single guild or timezone can't lock down a spawn, and so other guilds/timezones have a chance at whatever it is. But, having *some* contested content, group or raid, is far healthier in the long run than having everything be accessible to everyone all the time as long as they meet number/level requirements.
That said - there does need to be stuff that's available on-demand. DragonFist said it really well. I and my guildmates have jobs, families, lives outside of this game. To get us all online at the same time, we *have* to schedule in advance. We can't just simply be logged on waiting for something to show up. So, whether that raid content is triggered, or instanced, or ghosted, or whatever... there needs to be stuff that we can count on being able to go and do in a pre-planned kind of way.
There's a balance between the two types of content. Most recent games (that have halfway decent raiding) try to tackle this through a combination of instanced raid content and "world boss" type content. Not saying that's the way Pantheon should go, but the point is that there's raid stuff that rewards being in the right place at the right time, and then there's raid stuff that doesn't require that, and both things exist side by side. You could argue that the people who can do the right place/right time content get an advantage over others because they *also* have the on-demand stuff available to them at any time.
I also want to come back to the idea that raids should be accessible only to the elite few, the "hardcore", the people who can afford to jump online at a moment's notice. Honestly, why is this still even a point of discussion? 20 years ago when we were all high school and college students it was feasible, but these days? Restricting all raid content to just that set of people is a really fast way to insure that PRF dies after its first year from a lack of players. I don't have enough invested to live off dividends yet (though I'm working on that). I mean, I suppose I could quit my job, tell my girlfriend I'm leaving her for the *chance* to do some raids in an online game, and go live in my Mom's basement...wait, I pay the mortgage on that house. That won't work.
No game, no matter how awesome or compelling, can *ever* expect players to ignore the demands of real life. Nor should it.
What I (and I think many others) want from raid content is really pretty straightforward:
I totally get that some people want that extra thrill of racing others to the content - and I think PRF will offer plenty of that. But if that's the whole of the raiding game, then I'd have to ask VR how they plan on keeping the majority of players around and paying after the initial rush to level cap. Because it's simply too restrictive to give the game longevity.
Anyway, my 2gp. I know folks will disagree. The nice thing about this thread is that I see everyone's opinions being represented - and I think it's important that it stays that way. The right solution is always somewhere in the middle.
Iksar said:Feyshtey said:In EQ it was very much the same thing. I remember guilds monopolizing camps on a regular basis, swapping out guildmates as someone had to leave, and effectively locking down the encounter for days or even weeks at a time. Frenzied Ghoul comes to mind from original release, and that kind of thing continued for several expansions when I left the game.
I noticed that happen much more in P1999 than I ever remember on my server for EQ, never had too much issue getting into frenzy etc. Anyway the key difference again is that (in the past) named mobs typically drop tradeable items, so even if you couldn't for whatever reason get into the camp with the item you want it would always filter to the market eventually. At the very least you could camp somewhere else and sell the drops to pay for the other item.
The most important thing will be how commited to the proposed vision they are and to what extent it goes: "We also want to make sure there will be plenty of great items and choices for adventuring all over the world – for example, we want to avoid there being just a single sought-after item for a specific class at a specific level. Similarly powerful and valued items will be available elsewhere in the world." For the higher group content it's possible they could have lockout timers to limit guild domination.
With regards to group content I'm actually looking forward to the return of camp checks (and yes, probably trains to the zoneline). I think the real trick here is twofold - first, if we're going to have static spawns in dungeons (like Frenzy), the dungeons need to be big enough, with spawns spread far enough apart, that all available targets in them can't be monopolized just by one or two groups. Second, while I am totally down with hunting specific mobs for drops and things like that - there need to be multiple options, or we'll find that some things just end up permacamped, half the time by people who are farming the item to sell.
One way to fix that problem is by randomizing drops from named mobs so that instead of the same mob always dropping the item everyone wants, *any* named mob of that caliber can drop that item. This means that camps become more about the fights and the area, and less about the loot, because you have the same chance of loot from any comparable camp you might do. Not saying that's the best solution, but it is something to think about.
for example, we want to avoid there being just a single sought-after item for a specific class at a specific level. Similarly powerful and valued items will be available elsewhere in the world.
This means there is no problem to find a solution for when it comes to raid content. There will already be multiple options and mindful distribution of items.
And Pantheon will not be Disney World. There will be exclusive content you can miss if you are not in "the right place at the right time". There will be exclusive encounters and rewards. And the game world will feel like it exists with or without you in it.
This notion that every player should be entitled to all content is ridiculous, and the only way to make that really happen, is to make the game a single player RPG. Nobody wants that. A modern MMORPG should grow and develop over time. It should not just be a theme park you can show up for and expect VIP treatment and access to the complete archives. "You'll never believe what just happened" should be the greatest message you could ever log in to.
Unless you are an anti-gamer, then I guess it makes sense to want to prevent anyone from achieving something you cannot.
There's a significant difference between "exclusive encounters" and getting text messages in the early morning to collect pixels. Maybe someone says it's entitlement to expect to be able to replay the same content to the extent we have in the past, I say it's entitlement to get exclusive items by logging into the game at a specific time. This is one of the reasons I've been against GM events awarding anything beyond fluff/cosmetics.
The notion that content will not be repeatable or that it is undesirable to repeat it is laughable considering there is 20 years of precedent in this genre for repetition of content to be a thing. I'm not sure where the idea comes from that Pantheon is this revolutionary game that is diverging from the beaten path, and the many issues we've faced over the year will be resolved without need for consideration.
I don't intrinsically trust the developers of this game to get everything right. I don't believe they're going to get it wrong, either. I just want Pantheon to be a game I want to play.
You can hand wave all you want, but raid mechanics, loot distribution, etc. are pretty important facets of gameplay that should probably be addressed before everything is broken and we're posting on the forums post-release about how burnt out we are having to be at the edge of our seats to kill things.
DragonFist said:I'd like to see a balance of contested and uncontested raids. I agree world awareness should be important. But I'd also like to be to log in and schedule end game content with my guild and actually have something to do. Maybe all the contested targets are down but there are some spawnables or instanced or whatever that one can always target and the rewards may not be as good but we aren't left with nothing to do either.
I don't think it's a good idea to have "best" items come from contested raid mobs. From all I know, Pantheon is supposed to be a cooperative PvE game - not PvP, e-sport etc. So cooperative gameplay should be the main focus, not having to fight against other guilds. Let me be clear: I think it's great to have contested raid mobs, which the power guilds can pursue...but as a bonus, not to get the best items in the game. So, the guilds that play more or are just ready a bit quicker will have advantages (as they should), but that does not block other guilds (who have the ability, but not the time) from gearing up just as well.
Iksar said:Feyshtey said:In EQ it was very much the same thing. I remember guilds monopolizing camps on a regular basis, swapping out guildmates as someone had to leave, and effectively locking down the encounter for days or even weeks at a time. Frenzied Ghoul comes to mind from original release, and that kind of thing continued for several expansions when I left the game.
I noticed that happen much more in P1999 than I ever remember on my server for EQ, never had too much issue getting into frenzy etc. Anyway the key difference again is that (in the past) named mobs typically drop tradeable items, so even if you couldn't for whatever reason get into the camp with the item you want it would always filter to the market eventually. At the very least you could camp somewhere else and sell the drops to pay for the other item.
The most important thing will be how commited to the proposed vision they are and to what extent it goes: "We also want to make sure there will be plenty of great items and choices for adventuring all over the world – for example, we want to avoid there being just a single sought-after item for a specific class at a specific level. Similarly powerful and valued items will be available elsewhere in the world." For the higher group content it's possible they could have lockout timers to limit guild domination.
There is one issue I see in terms of relating EQ1, or any 15+ year old game, to current MMoRPG play.
In EQ1, we were ALL basically new, the "super" guilds and such hadn't really come yet. And this is where the issue is, while things like the Frenzied Ghoul camp wasn't monopolized in the early years of EQ1, the overall concept, play style and player mentality has changed. As well as the overall population of a single server. When I started EQ, 400 people on a server on a given night was busy. (Back when they showed the population :) ) P99 is a different animal, we all know the zones, the mobs, the items. There is no exploring or adventuring, just camping and killing.
As much as I would love to see an EQ1 community and game style be re-created, it will never be exactly. The mentality of the players has changed, many are only looking to get to the highest level as fast as possible, many guilds have no other interest other than getting to endgame raiding, and sadly, there are some guilds that have no qualms about monopolizing content for their own personal purposes. All things that had not yet come of age in the first few years of EQ1. Add that many of us that were in EQ1 in the early years are not the ones with all the free time in the world to play anymore either.
None of this is the fault of anyone but time and change itself.
I'm not sure there is any game mechanic that can solve those issues without inherently affecting the gameplay of everyone else as well. We can only hope that there is enough fun and interesting content to keep the entire player base occupied and entertained. That the items that everyone desires are obtainable in multiple ways, or that near equivelant items are available as well within the world. This still doesn't mean everyone shoulod be able to easily obtain such items, but that it would be more difficult for a single guild or group of people to lock down a mob or an item from all others.
arcsbane said:Every opinion here is valid and angrily shouting "ignore the other viewpoints devs, the only ones that matter are mine and those that support my views" doesn't advance the cause, so to speak
Tell me about it!
Let's wait until we can check out the raiding-part in Pantheon. Maybe u like the hyper/ghost thing. I'll do, because I loved Vanguard and it worked very well!
The cool thing about Pantheon is that there could be dozens of "best" items for every class due to the nature of situational gear. Whether you choose to spend your time crafting, questing, dungeon crawling, raiding or something else ... you should be able to acquire a variety of really nice pieces even if you don't delve into any particular sphere of advancement. Beyond that, most gear will be tradeable. This means you could spend your time working on crafting and then utilize your profits to buy a piece that can only be acquired from raiding. There will be exceptions with certain gear being no-trade or bind-on-equip, and that's fine.
Time has always been the primary advancement mechanism for character progression in any MMO or MUD. If you can't put in as much time as the next guy, you should be realistic with your expectations and understand that they will probably be more powerful. At the same time, though, world awareness should be very important. The game can be designed in such a way that "windows of opportunity" exist and it's up to the player to identify them and capitalize. This means that an efficient session of 2-3 hours can yield greater results than an inefficient session of 4-5 hours. These windows of opportunity can help the world feel alive ... but players need to be cognizant that in order for these to work, there has to be a limited supply.
We already know that we won't see instances in Pantheon except very rare occasions. It will be an open world that continues to exist through all hours of the day, regardless of how much time you or anybody else spends in it. We don't want a single player game where anybody/everybody can achieve the same exact thing. We don't want the ground-hog day cycle to reign supreme. There should be twists and surprises where being in the right place at the right time is fruitful. Naturally, players with more time will be in a better position to take advantage of these opportunities, but it is what it is. Rather than worrying about what another player accomplishes with their session, focus on your own character and circumstances. Don't expect a living breathing world to adapt or conform to what would be ideal for you.
I understand that many players don't have the time they once did. What about the new generation who does have that time? Should they miss out on the experiences that we cherished so very much because the genre has evolved to punish people who have more time? I understand the point behind utilizing ghosts on raid mobs ... they will definitely serve a purpose. But competition needs to exist ... there will be winners, and there will be losers ... if you find yourself on the losing side, tough luck. Prepare for your next run and see what you can do to get a better result. If it's something out of your control, don't dwell on it. Respect that the game and world is much bigger than yourself, and understand that with every opportunity you might miss, someone else still gets to enjoy it. Their satisfaction is also very important and if the world is designed to be a doorknob where everybody gets a turn ... walking through that threshold no longer feels special.
We need exclusivity and rarity. We need to return to the days where you see someone with something special, and feel jealous. It should inspire you to do whatever is necessary to earn that piece ... and if it just isn't possible, then focus on acquiring something else that is special. Life isn't fair. You get out of it, what you put into it. I am not a fan of artificial mechanics that impose "handicaps" on players who play the game more seriously. I understand that certain mechanics or features need to be put into place to keep things "fair" to some degree ... but again, let's embrace the idea that everybody will have different experiences. Sometimes you come out ahead, sometimes you are left grasping for more. Continue plugging away and you can achieve your goals ... but if they are delusional, don't expect the game to pick up the slack on your behalf.
oneADseven said:The cool thing about Pantheon is that there could be dozens of "best" items for every class due to the nature of situational gear. Whether you choose to spend your time crafting, questing, dungeon crawling, raiding or something else ... you should be able to acquire a variety of really nice pieces even if you don't delve into any particular sphere of advancement. Beyond that, most gear will be tradeable. This means you could spend your time working on crafting and then utilize your profits to buy a piece that can only be acquired from raiding. There will be exceptions with certain gear being no-trade or bind-on-equip, and that's fine.
Time has always been the primary advancement mechanism for character progression in any MMO or MUD. If you can't put in as much time as the next guy, you should be realistic with your expectations and understand that they will probably be more powerful. At the same time, though, world awareness should be very important. The game can be designed in such a way that "windows of opportunity" exist and it's up to the player to identify them and capitalize. This means that an efficient session of 2-3 hours can yield greater results than an inefficient session of 4-5 hours. These windows of opportunity can help the world feel alive ... but players need to be cognizant that in order for these to work, there has to be a limited supply.
We already know that we won't see instances in Pantheon except very rare occasions. It will be an open world that continues to exist through all hours of the day, regardless of how much time you or anybody else spends in it. We don't want a single player game where anybody/everybody can achieve the same exact thing. We don't want the ground-hog day cycle to reign supreme. There should be twists and surprises where being in the right place at the right time is fruitful. Naturally, players with more time will be in a better position to take advantage of these opportunities, but it is what it is. Rather than worrying about what another player accomplishes with their session, focus on your own character and circumstances. Don't expect a living breathing world to adapt or conform to what would be ideal for you.
I understand that many players don't have the time they once did. What about the new generation who does have that time? Should they miss out on the experiences that we cherished so very much because the genre has evolved to punish people who have more time? I understand the point behind utilizing ghosts on raid mobs ... they will definitely serve a purpose. But competition needs to exist ... there will be winners, and there will be losers ... if you find yourself on the losing side, tough luck. Prepare for your next run and see what you can do to get a better result. If it's something out of your control, don't dwell on it. Respect that the game and world is much bigger than yourself, and understand that with every opportunity you might miss, someone else still gets to enjoy it. Their satisfaction is also very important and if the world is designed to be a doorknob where everybody gets a turn ... walking through that threshold no longer feels special.
We need exclusivity and rarity. We need to return to the days where you see someone with something special, and feel jealous. It should inspire you to do whatever is necessary to earn that piece ... and if it just isn't possible, then focus on acquiring something else that is special. Life isn't fair. You get out of it, what you put into it. I am not a fan of artificial mechanics that impose "handicaps" on players who play the game more seriously. I understand that certain mechanics or features need to be put into place to keep things "fair" to some degree ... but again, let's embrace the idea that everybody will have different experiences. Sometimes you come out ahead, sometimes you are left grasping for more. Continue plugging away and you can achieve your goals ... but if they are delusional, don't expect the game to pick up the slack on your behalf.
I agree with every single point in this post. The exclusivity of mobs and gear is very important. People need to see someone wearing something that not only proves that they overcame a major engagement, but also something that is very rare and may only be a few on the server at that moment. This was the Cloak of Flames back in the day, a full set of Beguiler gear, and that Calamity's End that Rumblecrush dropped. These were items to dream for and making them available at all times to everyone removes all of that. It sort of ties into the AH thread for me. The items are characters in and of themselves. To this day, I remember the stats on so many items and many not even high end or anything. I remember the stats on the Stein of Mogguk, the GBS, all the crafted jewelry, et al. Because I saw them on other people and their stats in EC /auc. These are things that I still remember and I haven't played in nearly fifteen years.
And I'm not even certain it's about fairness so much as how quickly you are able to consume the content. It isn't really unfair that one guild gets it first and yours several months later. It's just not something you are entitled to do right now.
I think that this thread is a font of very clever ideas, but it is a contentious subject. We are going to have to find some middle ground. Every aspect of this game isn't going to make everyone happy. I think it is very telling that the devs, especially Brad, haven't posted once in this one even though it is easily one of the most viewed and mosted posted on this forum. Either they want to keep distance from the contention, or they truly are taking in all the ideas and trying to see which fit into their mold.
So, since I haven't contributed to the ideas, here's mine. Gnog's good idea of time-limited zones made me think that maybe its location shouldn't be static. Instead of a zone that opens periodically, why not make the way to the dragon/demon/demigod/whatever a portal that appears in random locations on a continent or set of zones. Maybe flood the surrounding area with raid-level mobs. It isn't an instance, the zone the dragon resides in; access is simply limited to when the portal appears. And when the portal closes it could boot everyone out technimagically or something. But you couldn't park an alt to track the spawn of a portal, you couldn't monopolize it if it isn't predictable. It still allows for the race and for the exclusivity of the mob. It doesn't solve the batphone issue, but I don't think anything ever will; there will always be events guilds want to mobilize for at terrible hours. And things still need to happen in those terrible hours for the sake of the Europeans or Australians.
Edit-credited the wrong person with the time-limited zones thing.
arcsbane said:oneADseven said:We need exclusivity and rarity. We need to return to the days where you see someone with something special, and feel jealous. It should inspire you to do whatever is necessary to earn that piece ... and if it just isn't possible, then focus on acquiring something else that is special. Life isn't fair. You get out of it, what you put into it. I am not a fan of artificial mechanics that impose "handicaps" on players who play the game more seriously. I understand that certain mechanics or features need to be put into place to keep things "fair" to some degree ... but again, let's embrace the idea that everybody will have different experiences. Sometimes you come out ahead, sometimes you are left grasping for more. Continue plugging away and you can achieve your goals ... but if they are delusional, don't expect the game to pick up the slack on your behalf.
I agree with every single point in this post. The exclusivity of mobs and gear is very important. People need to see someone wearing something that not only proves that they overcame a major engagement, but also something that is very rare and may only be a few on the server at that moment. This was the Cloak of Flames back in the day, a full set of Beguiler gear, and that Calamity's End that Rumblecrush dropped. These were items to dream for and making them available at all times to everyone removes all of that. It sort of ties into the AH thread for me. The items are characters in and of themselves. To this day, I remember the stats on so many items and many not even high end or anything. I remember the stats on the Stein of Mogguk, the GBS, all the crafted jewelry, et al. Because I saw them on other people and their stats in EC /auc. These are things that I still remember and I haven't played in nearly fifteen years.
I know I'm relatively new to this discussion but I agree with you both in principle. I think the vast majority of people do. I think the trap lies in taking anything to an extreme and that's really where most of the arguments have been happening. Should there be exclusivity and rarity and competition? Yes! But it should be tempered by variety and choices. There should always be something meaningful and fun that players/guilds can go do with their time in the game, even if they're not lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time on that day. That doesn't mean that there can't be drops and items that we all lust after and raid targets that we all race to be the ones to take down. It just means that the final strategy needs to be in the middle ground somewhere between ultra-exclusive, and available to everyone.
oneADseven said:What about the new generation who does have that time? Should they miss out on the experiences that we cherished so very much because the genre has evolved to punish people who have more time? I understand the point behind utilizing ghosts on raid mobs ... they will definitely serve a purpose. But competition needs to exist ... there will be winners, and there will be losers ... if you find yourself on the losing side, tough luck. Prepare for your next run and see what you can do to get a better result. If it's something out of your control, don't dwell on it. Respect that the game and world is much bigger than yourself, and understand that with every opportunity you might miss, someone else still gets to enjoy it. Their satisfaction is also very important and if the world is designed to be a doorknob where everybody gets a turn ... walking through that threshold no longer feels special.
We need exclusivity and rarity. We need to return to the days where you see someone with something special, and feel jealous. It should inspire you to do whatever is necessary to earn that piece ... and if it just isn't possible, then focus on acquiring something else that is special. Life isn't fair. You get out of it, what you put into it. I am not a fan of artificial mechanics that impose "handicaps" on players who play the game more seriously. I understand that certain mechanics or features need to be put into place to keep things "fair" to some degree ... but again, let's embrace the idea that everybody will have different experiences. Sometimes you come out ahead, sometimes you are left grasping for more. Continue plugging away and you can achieve your goals ... but if they are delusional, don't expect the game to pick up the slack on your behalf.
I'm not sure I want a new generation that has the values of "Guilds at the top of the food chain will make it their #1 priority to farm these encounters and kill them the instant they spawn to prevent other guilds from having an opportunity to learn them. It's cut-throat. We don't wake up at 4 AM so that we can kill pixels for fun. We do it because we want to make sure nobody else ever has an opportunity to experience the precious real time practice of fighting the mob." or otherwise get off on denying other people access to content. I'd rather we move past the unappealing culture of dominant raiding guilds denying others content.
If the raids are truly difficult then it doesn't matter how many people can turn the doorknob as only a slim percentage will make it through the door. Those raid items will still be very rare and those that accomplish victory over the brutal challenge will feel special.
Here is the general consensus of the P1999 community (those unfamiliar with EQ might not get some of it):
*Git Guud, Work Harder, Earn It, Croot & Contest
The current raid scene is 16 hour windows, staring at someone screen sharing a face tracker, standing at the zoneline with 40 other people, hoping to win a race up to a dragon/giant to get FTE (first to engage) to get a chance to kill said dragon/giant. The big two guilds work their asses off for that content. That's their choice, but not every guild runs 100 deep on a raid, or even 60 deep at 4am EST, in order to get that dragon dead 3 minutes from spawn. We can't field 20+ racers for 12 hours every single week, hell most weeks we can't field 5. This isn't because we're bad at P99 raiding, it's because it's not fun for us. I won't speak for the other casual raiding guilds, but in BDA we want to experience content, but we want to actually play the game. Watching a screenshare instead of actually bind sighting because the bard needs to have selos going as soon as the dragon pops to win the race is very very gross, but it's what is absolutely necessary if a guild wants to earn those Velious pixels. In fact, it's what is also required to earn Kunark pixels in the Peak. For a Phara Dar the other week BDA sunk in over 120 man hours of tracking, being prepped and ready to run up for FTE across 14+ hours. That is the most hours we ever sunk into a single raid target, and it was a turning point for our guild. We aren't going to do that anymore. It wasn't fun. It made people angry. It sucked the life out of people. This isn't even a variance issue. Variance is a good thing to keep people honest, otherwise we'd have 500 people waiting at the zoneline waiting for a dragon to spawn. Variance also allows for spawns to fall into the Euro hours, which is great for Euro players, it's only fair that their primetime gets a chance for a dragon spawn. The guilds that put in more effort should get more loot, they deserve it, but they shouldn't hold a monopoly over the content and that's essentially what it is. Assuming BDA won the lottery and somehow got FTE on Vulak after a repop, we would then have 1 hour to somehow learn how to kite every single dragon in north (because Vulak summons) while trying the fight for the very first time. I sat through Kunark for 5 years hoping to someday see Velious. Now the Velious is here I've been lucky enough to see Veeshan's Peak, fighting tooth and nail for every kill. How long should I wait to see Velious top end content? That's not meant to be a snarky question, think about it.
*I see a lot of bitching, how do you fix it?
Implement a rotation, or class system, or lockouts, or something. Even a pile of earthquakes doesn't solve the problems in Temple of Veeshan. More dragons doesn't mean other guilds aside from Awakened/Aftermath will get a chance to kill them.
Add instancing. I know that's NOT CLASSIC, but there's a reason that the progression servers have it, and every current MMO has it. There needs to be a path of progression for any guild that wants it, and that path shouldn't be pulling 100 members at a raid, plopping down 20 racers for up to 16 hours, and hoping to get FTE at a time when your guild can field the numbers for a kill.
I know this is a lot to read, and I know that my tone is probably poor, but I'm a passionate supporter of this project. I've been here since January 2011. I've been with BDA since April 2011. I moved into an officer role in 2012, and became a guild leader in 2013. I've been through the 96+ hour windows, blocked at the top by 8 different uber guild incarnations, 3 different head GMs, no raid rules, new raid rules, rotations, no rotations, and 5 years of Kunark. I've loved this game since I was 14 years old, and the friends I've made on P99 in BDA are people that I will keep in touch with for the rest of my life. I'm truly grateful that Nilbog and Rogean provide this amazing nostalgic experience for thousands of people for free. I'm even grateful for Sirken and his staff that try to police this unruly bunch of man-children. I'm just one person that would like to experience the entirety of this expansion, much like the other 80% of the raiders on this server, and I'd like to see a realistic path of progression to do so.
There will be raid content all the way up to max level and loads of group content. And they are specifically avoiding the single item "everyone lusts after" model of loot distribution. So I say extreme is the new middle ground. Go nuts. There will always be multiple options so no matter how exclusive some specific item might be there should always be some kind of alternative. There is also progression over time to think about. This won't be a 30 days to max level tutorial, and then the real game starts type of experience. Raiders will be raiding in their 20's or sooner and all the way up.
Even exclusives will be replaced as new content comes out, and if something is too "sought after" they can just fix it, or replace it with the next tier.
There is no middle ground here to even worry about when you think about it. Is there? Knowing what we know about the development focus it should be obvious. They can just make a tier of raid content for competitive raiding that no one outside of the top few guilds on the server can access if they want.
I would go as far as making competitive raid zones a Server vs Server open PvP event where maybe the top 3 guilds from each server have a MOBA style tripple lane full of raid encounters to push down. And they can work together to overpower one lane and take a major target in their base, or just push lanes until they meet in the middle each taking a few raid targets along the way, and then triggering an event that makes both major bosses enrage and attack each other.
You can make it so the entire server is involved in providing bonuses or NPC support during the raid, and if one side gets the main boss, it unlocks secondary raid event for everyone on that server. But if neither side takes a main boss, the zone is destroyed by the battle of descended gods, and you have to come back next month and try again.
Then hyper exclusive competitive raiding can exist as an avenue for creating access to new content for everyone else on the server. And you can even involve the rest of the server in the competitive raids by offering a server-wide event for supporting your team in this competitive raid tournament.
I feel like that wouldn't suck.
Iksar said:oneADseven said:What about the new generation who does have that time? Should they miss out on the experiences that we cherished so very much because the genre has evolved to punish people who have more time? I understand the point behind utilizing ghosts on raid mobs ... they will definitely serve a purpose. But competition needs to exist ... there will be winners, and there will be losers ... if you find yourself on the losing side, tough luck. Prepare for your next run and see what you can do to get a better result. If it's something out of your control, don't dwell on it. Respect that the game and world is much bigger than yourself, and understand that with every opportunity you might miss, someone else still gets to enjoy it. Their satisfaction is also very important and if the world is designed to be a doorknob where everybody gets a turn ... walking through that threshold no longer feels special.
We need exclusivity and rarity. We need to return to the days where you see someone with something special, and feel jealous. It should inspire you to do whatever is necessary to earn that piece ... and if it just isn't possible, then focus on acquiring something else that is special. Life isn't fair. You get out of it, what you put into it. I am not a fan of artificial mechanics that impose "handicaps" on players who play the game more seriously. I understand that certain mechanics or features need to be put into place to keep things "fair" to some degree ... but again, let's embrace the idea that everybody will have different experiences. Sometimes you come out ahead, sometimes you are left grasping for more. Continue plugging away and you can achieve your goals ... but if they are delusional, don't expect the game to pick up the slack on your behalf.
I'm not sure I want a new generation that has the values of "Guilds at the top of the food chain will make it their #1 priority to farm these encounters and kill them the instant they spawn to prevent other guilds from having an opportunity to learn them. It's cut-throat. We don't wake up at 4 AM so that we can kill pixels for fun. We do it because we want to make sure nobody else ever has an opportunity to experience the precious real time practice of fighting the mob." or otherwise get off on denying other people access to content. I'd rather we move past the unappealing culture of dominant raiding guilds denying others content.
If the raids are truly difficult then it doesn't matter how many people can turn the doorknob as only a slim percentage will make it through the door. Those raid items will still be very rare and those that accomplish victory over the brutal challenge will feel special.
Here is the general consensus of the P1999 community (those unfamiliar with EQ might not get some of it):
*Git Guud, Work Harder, Earn It, Croot & Contest
The current raid scene is 16 hour windows, staring at someone screen sharing a face tracker, standing at the zoneline with 40 other people, hoping to win a race up to a dragon/giant to get FTE (first to engage) to get a chance to kill said dragon/giant. The big two guilds work their asses off for that content. That's their choice, but not every guild runs 100 deep on a raid, or even 60 deep at 4am EST, in order to get that dragon dead 3 minutes from spawn. We can't field 20+ racers for 12 hours every single week, hell most weeks we can't field 5. This isn't because we're bad at P99 raiding, it's because it's not fun for us. I won't speak for the other casual raiding guilds, but in BDA we want to experience content, but we want to actually play the game. Watching a screenshare instead of actually bind sighting because the bard needs to have selos going as soon as the dragon pops to win the race is very very gross, but it's what is absolutely necessary if a guild wants to earn those Velious pixels. In fact, it's what is also required to earn Kunark pixels in the Peak. For a Phara Dar the other week BDA sunk in over 120 man hours of tracking, being prepped and ready to run up for FTE across 14+ hours. That is the most hours we ever sunk into a single raid target, and it was a turning point for our guild. We aren't going to do that anymore. It wasn't fun. It made people angry. It sucked the life out of people. This isn't even a variance issue. Variance is a good thing to keep people honest, otherwise we'd have 500 people waiting at the zoneline waiting for a dragon to spawn. Variance also allows for spawns to fall into the Euro hours, which is great for Euro players, it's only fair that their primetime gets a chance for a dragon spawn. The guilds that put in more effort should get more loot, they deserve it, but they shouldn't hold a monopoly over the content and that's essentially what it is. Assuming BDA won the lottery and somehow got FTE on Vulak after a repop, we would then have 1 hour to somehow learn how to kite every single dragon in north (because Vulak summons) while trying the fight for the very first time. I sat through Kunark for 5 years hoping to someday see Velious. Now the Velious is here I've been lucky enough to see Veeshan's Peak, fighting tooth and nail for every kill. How long should I wait to see Velious top end content? That's not meant to be a snarky question, think about it.
*I see a lot of bitching, how do you fix it?
Implement a rotation, or class system, or lockouts, or something. Even a pile of earthquakes doesn't solve the problems in Temple of Veeshan. More dragons doesn't mean other guilds aside from Awakened/Aftermath will get a chance to kill them.
Add instancing. I know that's NOT CLASSIC, but there's a reason that the progression servers have it, and every current MMO has it. There needs to be a path of progression for any guild that wants it, and that path shouldn't be pulling 100 members at a raid, plopping down 20 racers for up to 16 hours, and hoping to get FTE at a time when your guild can field the numbers for a kill.
I know this is a lot to read, and I know that my tone is probably poor, but I'm a passionate supporter of this project. I've been here since January 2011. I've been with BDA since April 2011. I moved into an officer role in 2012, and became a guild leader in 2013. I've been through the 96+ hour windows, blocked at the top by 8 different uber guild incarnations, 3 different head GMs, no raid rules, new raid rules, rotations, no rotations, and 5 years of Kunark. I've loved this game since I was 14 years old, and the friends I've made on P99 in BDA are people that I will keep in touch with for the rest of my life. I'm truly grateful that Nilbog and Rogean provide this amazing nostalgic experience for thousands of people for free. I'm even grateful for Sirken and his staff that try to police this unruly bunch of man-children. I'm just one person that would like to experience the entirety of this expansion, much like the other 80% of the raiders on this server, and I'd like to see a realistic path of progression to do so.
I haven't played p1999 in ages, but if I recall correctly, it stops at Velious, right? And a quick google shows it released in '09. So it has had pretty much the same content for 8 years unless there is more of which I am unaware; like I said I don't play the emulator. It sounds like the problem there is that there are a lot of competitive people with no other content to turn to. I think the expansions VR hints at (every 9 months or something like that iirc?) would solve this issue. New raids to move on to while opening the rest up to the ones lagging behind. oneADseven's Hyper/ghost combo idea would solve a lot of the other issues more than likely.
ZennExile said:There will be raid content all the way up to max level and loads of group content. And they are specifically avoiding the single item "everyone lusts after" model of loot distribution. So I say extreme is the new middle ground. Go nuts. There will always be multiple options so no matter how exclusive some specific item might be there should always be some kind of alternative. There is also progression over time to think about. This won't be a 30 days to max level tutorial, and then the real game starts type of experience. Raiders will be raiding in their 20's or sooner and all the way up.
Going to be completely honest here...I just don't care about a level 20 raid. Most games simply call them Public Events and they just never feel very special. I admit, I am one of those "endgamers" that looks forward to the things I achieve after I have maxed out my level. It's the place where the majority eventually end up and compete with each other the most. If I miss out on a level 20 raid, so what? Unless they have some really rockin' item upgrade/upleveling system the weapons and armor I would get from those don't really matter in the end, they just make life a bit easier for a while. It's the top-level stuff that is semi-permanent on your character and the top-level stuff for which I would compete. I don't think I enjoy a game world less because of this view. I just really enjoy the end with a fully-realized character that I can begin to truly min/max. This is why I am skeptical of the progeny system, because I don't think it has a place in a game like this. If the game truly is just level to max, smack the progenizerator and do it again over and over, then why have raids to begin with? With that sort of system, the leveling game is the end unto itself with no destination to look forward to.
Yeah, ideally your "fully realized" character should be availible to you as soon as the tutorial ends. But there is that middle ground thing... I would do nothing to make new characters easier though. Doing all the same things over again kills me. I would make each new character harder than the last. And give special abilities to random trash mobs that only work on handicaped new characters. And if you tried to put overpowered gear on your character, I would make it lower your power instead.
I would take a cleaver to every hand that even thought about getting held.
Iksar said:oneADseven said:What about the new generation who does have that time? Should they miss out on the experiences that we cherished so very much because the genre has evolved to punish people who have more time? I understand the point behind utilizing ghosts on raid mobs ... they will definitely serve a purpose. But competition needs to exist ... there will be winners, and there will be losers ... if you find yourself on the losing side, tough luck. Prepare for your next run and see what you can do to get a better result. If it's something out of your control, don't dwell on it. Respect that the game and world is much bigger than yourself, and understand that with every opportunity you might miss, someone else still gets to enjoy it. Their satisfaction is also very important and if the world is designed to be a doorknob where everybody gets a turn ... walking through that threshold no longer feels special.
We need exclusivity and rarity. We need to return to the days where you see someone with something special, and feel jealous. It should inspire you to do whatever is necessary to earn that piece ... and if it just isn't possible, then focus on acquiring something else that is special. Life isn't fair. You get out of it, what you put into it. I am not a fan of artificial mechanics that impose "handicaps" on players who play the game more seriously. I understand that certain mechanics or features need to be put into place to keep things "fair" to some degree ... but again, let's embrace the idea that everybody will have different experiences. Sometimes you come out ahead, sometimes you are left grasping for more. Continue plugging away and you can achieve your goals ... but if they are delusional, don't expect the game to pick up the slack on your behalf.
I'm not sure I want a new generation that has the values of "Guilds at the top of the food chain will make it their #1 priority to farm these encounters and kill them the instant they spawn to prevent other guilds from having an opportunity to learn them. It's cut-throat. We don't wake up at 4 AM so that we can kill pixels for fun. We do it because we want to make sure nobody else ever has an opportunity to experience the precious real time practice of fighting the mob." or otherwise get off on denying other people access to content. I'd rather we move past the unappealing culture of dominant raiding guilds denying others content.
If the raids are truly difficult then it doesn't matter how many people can turn the doorknob as only a slim percentage will make it through the door. Those raid items will still be very rare and those that accomplish victory over the brutal challenge will feel special.
Here is the general consensus of the P1999 community (those unfamiliar with EQ might not get some of it):
SNIP
We already know that there will be contested mobs in the game. I'm not reading anything from P99 because I truly do not care. Whatever problems they are dealing with in that 20 year old game ... it has no relevance here. You're talking about a progression server that is mostly populated with die-hard enthusiasts, and for a game where the strategies have been mastered and remastered 100x over for more than a decade. Of course it's a cesspool for toxicity when everybody wants the same things that have been established as "best" for what feels like an eternity.
I appreciate your perspective on this topic, but I can never support the idea of "everybody gets a turn." To me, that's basically the same thing as creating a game full of instances. It destroys the value of loot because drop rates can't be controlled in a way that still promotes the thrill of the hunt. This is something that needs to be managed on the back-end, and the easiest way to do it is to control the spawn rate of rare mobs. I look at raiding the same way I do dungeon crawling or group-adventuring. I want to explore the world and hunt for RARE monsters that have a high chance of dropping something good. That sounds a million times better than killing the same thing over and over again which has a low chance of something great to drop. If you create a game where "everybody gets a turn" -- the only way to control the influx of loot is to make the really good stuff incredibly rare. I absolutely despise instances because they are the very definition of everybody gets a turn. The thrill of the hunt should mean something (fun, excitement, challenge, awareness) ... definitely way more than the thrill of rolling your dice (Oh wow, even though 50 other people killed this thing today, I am the only one lucky enough to get the drop!)
You rejected the idea of the hyper/ghost concept because "the difficulty of the encounter should be the filter between the haves and have nots." You say you don't want to deal with a new generation of: "Guilds at the top of the food chain will make it their #1 priority to farm these encounters and kill them the instant they spawn to prevent other guilds from having an opportunity to learn them. It's cut-throat. We don't wake up at 4 AM so that we can kill pixels for fun. We do it because we want to make sure nobody else ever has an opportunity to experience the precious real time practice of fighting the mob."
Well ... that's what the hyper/ghost concept is meant to solve. Guilds wouldn't be able to prevent you from practicing the mob. That entire aspect of progression blocking would be removed from the equation. You would be able to learn the mechanics of a fight versus the ghost versions. If you can beat the ghost version, your chance to beat the hyper version goes up incredibly. You learn the ropes and boost the confidence of your team that you can definitely beat the encounter. You also accumulate loot, narrowing the gap compared to when everything is purely contested. That's a good compromise ... if you don't think so, I'm sorry for wasting your time.
oneADseven said:You rejected the idea of the hyper/ghost concept because "the difficulty of the encounter should be the filter between the haves and have nots." You say you don't want to deal with a new generation of: "Guilds at the top of the food chain will make it their #1 priority to farm these encounters and kill them the instant they spawn to prevent other guilds from having an opportunity to learn them. It's cut-throat. We don't wake up at 4 AM so that we can kill pixels for fun. We do it because we want to make sure nobody else ever has an opportunity to experience the precious real time practice of fighting the mob."
Well ... that's what the hyper/ghost concept is meant to solve. Guilds wouldn't be able to prevent you from practicing the mob. That entire aspect of progression blocking would be removed from the equation. You would be able to learn the mechanics of a fight versus the ghost versions. If you can beat the ghost version, your chance to beat the hyper version goes up incredibly. You learn the ropes and boost the confidence of your team that you can definitely beat the encounter. You also accumulate loot, narrowing the gap compared to when everything is purely contested. That's a good compromise ... if you don't think so, I'm sorry for wasting your time.
A shame because those points are very valid, old game or not if you think the same tactics won't be employed & improved upon in a modern open world game of contested raiding then I'd bet against you.
It's not. Offering a watered down version with watered down rewards is a slap to players who want to reach pinnacle progression success. It also likely further boosts raid gear beyond group gear because now you have to sqeeze in a middle ground between the two that is appealing enough. The ghost concept would only work fine if the ghosts were the same encounter with the same loot, the only difference being you perhaps get half the loot of a "live" kill and/or all the drops are "No Trade."