Forums » Pantheon Lore

Dragon Accord observations

    • 284 posts
    December 12, 2016 1:31 PM PST

     While it is true that we do not know that much about the specifics of the Dragon Accord, I believe we can glean quite a few answers to its mysteries simply by looking at the actions of both refugee gods and dragons since its promulgation. 

    As a preliminary matter, I hypothesize that the lore surrounding the language used to create the Accord (Drak’Elrin, the tongue spoken only by the Dragon King), and specifically the preoccupation in the Keepings of Castigue with how the Accord is uncopyable and unsulliable (i.e. the runes cannot be burned, inundated, diluted, etc.) was written merely to imbue us lore readers with the understanding of the magical permanence of the Accord. In other words, because of the language and runes used to write the Accord, any magic it has is untarnishable by ordinary happenstance and requires some higher, possibly celestial influence to break. 

    Regarding the contents of the Accord itself, the most obvious effect is the "Celestial Boundary", which has at this point two aspects:

    1. Immortal beings presumably are bound from exerting supernatural force on the mortal world, and
    2. Immortal beings can circumvent this limitation by eschewing their immortality to become "High Mortals"

    A side effect of the Descension from immortality is that erstwhile gods are able to work miracles resulting from their declination.* We have several examples, most notably the sacrifices of Nythir** and Syronai of the Dark Myr (who,respectively, sacrificed themselves to create a pocket of Issulian ocean and to reshape the Myr to survive on Terminus) and Ginavi of the Ginto, who sacrificed herself to act as a ward within her people against the scourge of the Revenant. There are many mysteries to Descension, but I think that is better left as a series of other topics more appropriate to the scope of that discussion. For our purposes here we need only recognize it exists.

    I said "presumably" the in the first bullet point above because, while it is true that, for example, Ossiri the Betrayer was unable to join the Ravaging Lord without Descending, this proscription of immortal antecedence does not seem to equally affect the dragons who made the Accord in the first place.*** The most obvious example of this is the entire climax event of the Deicide War, wherein first Rhy’Kafiros, dragon regent of the continent of Reignfall and then the Dragon King himself engaged with the hosts assmbled at Ka’Druhorr. Rhy'Kafiros "... blew thick flames over the two armies without regard for division", and the King himself "crushed the Ravaging Lord in his mouth" after the Lord killed Rhy'Kafiros. Finally, the celestial Emissary prevented the King from exerting further bloodshed, stating:

    ‘Blood for blood, King. There is no breach.’

    While the climax of the Deicide War and its aftermath is almost certainly going to be the topic of thousands of pages of lore in the game (editor's note: there better be, Ermos be cursed), I would only proffer here that this tells us several things:

    1. Dragons of something less than Rok’Nhilthamos in stature are seemingly able to interact violently with High Mortals without ramification vis-a-vis the Accord****,
    2. The "blood for blood" language implies that the Ravaging Lord's slaying of Rhy'Kafiros had the ability to put the Accord in some kind of jeopardy, and
    3. Rok’Nhilthamos himself is honor-, but definitely not magically bound to uphold the Accord by (ostensibly) not violently exerting influence

    Aside from the obvious difference in stature between Rok'Nhilthamos and Rhy'Kafiros, there is no indication given why the rules would be different, but there is evidence that they may be different, so it behooves me to mention it as a possible aspect of the Accord.

    A final interesting aspect of the Accord is that rank and file dragons like Tel'Nharssis: 1) would be keenly interested in the precise wording of the Accord, and 2) that there is at least some reasoning for why allowing them to learn its specifics would be dangerous. I am not sure what to make of the encounter with Tel'Nharssis, except for the rather obvious conclusion that there is more still to the Accord than has been observed. 

    I believe that we should look at the effects of the Accord to understand its purpose. The most obvious two effects are: the hamstringing of immigrant pantheons on Terminus and the preservation of the status quo of Dragons as masters of the world (with some sort of Celestial power at some level of parity or dominance above them(?)). As a result, I'm curious as to the extent of its power and if anyone has lingering questions we could debate answers to I would love to talk about it. The Lore hooked me immediately and deeply and I'd love to delve further if anybody else would.

     

    * There are also several examples, most notably Kazas, Ossiri and Haethus-Kevgrejl and possibly the tri-patriate Dwarven god Lock/Ehn/Hammur who Descended but did not exert some type of miracle or mystical boon, as far as we know.

    ** To avoid pedantry I only wish to add that Nythir may not have Descended when he sacrificed himself, as his body was inherently made of the seawater of Issul so for argument's sake I'll only note here that it's possible this was some unrelated form of divine sacrifice. Debating the difference is kind of pointless, let's let the Nythirian Red zealots debate the specifics.

    *** This is really a subject for a different post, but I wanted to add that nowhere is it explicitly said (except perhaps in the Accord, which is as yet untranslated) that gods who have yet to Descdend are forbade from acting; that conclusion has only been reached based on observation, so it is merely probably true.

    **** I only add this because in the "blood for blood" comment there are two actors drawing blood, and ostensibly those two actors are the Ravaging Lord and the Dragon King, but not the dragon regent of Reignfall. I find this an interesting implication of the tenets of the Accord.


    This post was edited by Jimmayus at December 15, 2016 10:19 AM PST
    • VR Staff
    • 246 posts
    December 13, 2016 10:40 AM PST

    This is impressive. Well done. 

    • 284 posts
    December 13, 2016 11:38 AM PST

    Thank you for the compliment! I don't feel like I did the lore work on the Accord true justice in just a forum post, but I'm hoping to spark some conversation with other forum goers to fill in the blanks. To be honest, right now I'm working on making a chart of confirmed and suspected gods of each pantheon. It's pretty fun trying to hypothesize who you guys are going to make the bad guys and the good guys. Keep up the fascinating world building!

    • VR Staff
    • 246 posts
    December 13, 2016 3:38 PM PST

    You did it more than justice. Honored you took the time and interest to this degree. Great work. 

    • 284 posts
    December 13, 2016 9:54 PM PST

    So I finished sketching out the current pantheons and decided to do a similar post on what exactly a High Mortal is. Without getting too sycophantic, I just wanted to say that the more I ponder the premise of multiple, conflicting pantheons crushed together unwillingly and then subjected to powerlessness or mortality, the more I am impressed by its elegance. So many games have issues of having only so many villains, so they have to hamfist a new one in. With 12 starting pantheons full of pro- and antagonists you guys are basically set for life. I'm impressed. Anyway, back to pouring through all the lore pages.

    • VR Staff
    • 246 posts
    December 14, 2016 6:21 PM PST

    Thank you, Jimmayus. 

    It is my hope that we are thinking deeply enough at all times to sow seeds that may not sprout for a long time. There are some narratives that we've sketched or written out that will likely never make it into the game. Not because they're wasted, but because they are the lowest course of stone beneath the house of Pantheon. They're sunk into the earth, they're the beams holding up the roof. Or they're hidden behind a wall in a room that few will visit.

    Fortunately we've been given the time to build the world carefully and with consideration, like brick and mortar laid one upon another. Early on, we ran the risk of putting a god on every street corner and forcing them into the story because we just had so many of them. Pretty soon that would've come off as artificial and the many divine narratives would've cancelled each other out. We took seriously the task of not overburdening the world with its own namesake.

    Because of that I think we've found a marriage that allows us to birth wonder organically. We get to pick rather than pry good stories out of the ground. The hope is that we've left ourselves a lot of worthwhile avenues of story as the world progresses. But there's still a lot to pay attention to, for us, and I'm interested to see which ones resonate with people.

    • 284 posts
    December 14, 2016 6:57 PM PST

    Well good luck man. I'm glad to hear you wont be robbing the players of their agency. On the topic of the Dragon Accord, my personal favorites so far are the absence of D'shath post-landfall and the great rift within the Dark Myr. Both the mystery surrounding the Nine God's refusal to Descend in order to prevent the Skar from spreading like a plague and questions over how Myrish society can ever come together when Syronai is such a divisive figure in death do not require the actual presence of the eponymous gods. I don't know if I'd call that "resonating" with me, per se, but they are incredibly intriguing. 

    Oh, and a little off topic, but I love that two races of slaves are so different. The Archai and the Skar are excellent additions to the fantasy lineup.

    • VR Staff
    • 246 posts
    December 15, 2016 7:56 AM PST

    Thanks!

    Yeah I think using a broad definition of "resonate" includes the level of interest you have, for sure. But we shall see what deeper things emerge.

    Honored you see the Skar and Archai as worthy additions. We took a gamble reimagining some classic races, and also with adding two completely new ones. I think -- and hope -- the response we've seen so far suggests the broader community will accept into the fantasy tent. Not everyone, of course. But either way, glad they fit well into our world as that's what matters most.

    Yes, for the Archai and Skar the responses to their collective slavery is extremely different. It's all about the heart. One embraced the humilty of liberation, redemption and grace. One embraced the benefit of lawlessness, retribution and power. Both will reap what they've sown.

    • 120 posts
    December 15, 2016 10:08 AM PST

    I have little to add to what you've gathered here except for a loud round of applause. I'm a lore junkie and you bet I'll be using this as a resource in the future.

     

    Looking forward to getting more lore! *makes puppy dog eyes at Istuulamae*

    • 284 posts
    December 15, 2016 10:15 AM PST

    Well, I am 100% certain that there has to be some secret, more important clause to the Accord that hasn't manifested itself yet. The most interesting thing for me now are the mysteries behind the encounter with Tel'Nharsiss: is he just inherently untrustworthy, as Khazas warned, and thus not showing him the Accord was a precautionary measure? I don't think so, unless there is some sort of power he might gain through the reading of the text. What kind of power that is I don't know, but it probably isn't good.

    edit: also thank you for the compliment. My work involves writing and citations so this type of thing is a great escape.


    This post was edited by Jimmayus at December 15, 2016 10:16 AM PST
    • 120 posts
    December 16, 2016 5:29 AM PST

    My personal hypothesis is that the Dragon Accord was not written by the Dragons. It was written by whatever celestial it is that makes Terminus do what it does; that is, pluck entire races and Pantheons from their home worlds and universes and deposit them upon Terminus.

    If that is so, then I think the biggest point of the Dragon Accord is to control the Dragons, as we saw at the climax of the Deicide War when the Emissary prevented Rok'Nhilthamos from unleashing the sure devastation he clearly wished to unleash. Also, even the King of both Dragon sects was unable to actually manifest until the Accord was broken, clearly implying that the Dragons are bound as helpless by the Accord as the deities brought into its grasp, and as all the low mortals are.

     

    Perhaps a Dragon being able to read and decipher that ancient tongue would grant them the power to break the Accord? Sort of along the same vein as when a caster is able to control a demon by knowing his true name? Perhaps Tel'Nharsiss wished to see the document itself because in seeing it, he would then have the power to break it?

    • 284 posts
    December 16, 2016 5:37 AM PST

    I don't think I can agree with your hypothesis. The Emissary quite clearly says there has been no breach, and yet Rok'Nhilthamos was able to kill Ittero. Even if that weren't true, Rhy'Khafiros killed many combatants before being slain. I maintain my stance that the Accord only binds dragons aspirationally. 

    I think the rest of the post is reasonable speculation and probably true. I'm waiting till there is more lore that discusses Ermos (the 'eyeless eclipse' of the Ginto) before taking a position on who brought the races to Terminus and why, and what Tel'Nharsiss might have gained.

    • 120 posts
    December 16, 2016 5:54 AM PST

    The Emissary clearly states "Blood for Blood." The Ravaging Lord took blood from Rhy'Khafiros, whom was able to defend her spire, and only when the blood of that Reignborn was spilt was the Dragon King able to descend to spill the Ravaging Lord's blood.

    Though in a way, that only supports your idea that the Accord only binds dragons aspirationally, since Rhy'Khafiros was able to manifest due to the danger to her realm.

     

    • 284 posts
    December 16, 2016 5:59 AM PST

    I would be very hesitant to assume Rok'Nhilthamos' hands were tied until Rhy'Khafiros died. I think the problem with that assumption falls under 'correlation does not equal causation': we have no evidence in the history that he could not act until he did. It is certainly probably true that he acted because she died, but I think that's the only thing the evidence can confidently support. 

    • 120 posts
    December 17, 2016 6:42 AM PST

    I think there's more than just correlation. There's also several hundred years of evidence at that time pointing to the possibility that the Dragons cannot or will not appear in the mortal realm with any frequency, though that could just be due to the fact that we don't have a bigger picture of the lore yet.

    My interpretation is that the Emissary only prevented Rok'Nhilthamos from spilling blood that was not intended to be spilt: the blood of the mortals. Rhy'Khafiros on the other hand, was able to cast destruction pretty freely because the realm of her spire was in danger. So that didn't break the Accord, but the Dragon King doing more than taking vengeance for his fallen sister would have.

     

    Tying with my idea, the Emissary would then be one of these higher celestial beings which wrote the Dragon Accord in order to control the Dragons.

     

    Perhaps the dragons were becoming powerful enough to overthrow them? That's further speculation though, and not something I feel particularly confident about.

     

    At the end of the day though, we don't know. I just like having an idea to hold on to. Then later, when we actually are given a bit more lore, I can say "I KNEW THAT!" or I'll just be wrong. xD Either way, I enjoy having an idea.

    • 284 posts
    December 17, 2016 10:46 AM PST

    I think reasonable minds can differ here. Since I'm kind of playing out a persona as a historian of Terminus on this forum I'll just stay in character and suggest that one of us is probably right re: reasons for dragon's inaction since our positions are opposed, but I'll stick to my position because I believe the evidence we have points that way.

    • 11 posts
    February 20, 2017 10:03 PM PST

    Jimmayus said:

    Well, I am 100% certain that there has to be some secret, more important clause to the Accord that hasn't manifested itself yet. The most interesting thing for me now are the mysteries behind the encounter with Tel'Nharsiss: is he just inherently untrustworthy, as Khazas warned, and thus not showing him the Accord was a precautionary measure? I don't think so, unless there is some sort of power he might gain through the reading of the text. What kind of power that is I don't know, but it probably isn't good

     

    I'm considering the possiblity that Drak'Elrin, the tongue of the Dragon King, might be a form of magic in itself.   The words, when written or carved onto other material seemed to impart that material with powers, however these powers may just be a by-product of some other magic.  Perhaps the Dragon King cast a spell on the actually text - or concept of text - and that is what is protecting it from being destroyed.  If either of these are possiblities, then this could be reflected directly in the game - as abilities gained at the end of a long quest related to the Dragon King.  Or perhaps the language is a prerequisite to greater magics (i.e. certain spells must be cast in Drak'Elrin). 

    • 6 posts
    February 21, 2017 2:44 PM PST

    I got through about half the lore so far. It is very interesting indeed. 

     

    I just wanted to chime in early before I finished it to agree that I think the Dragon Accord was a forced agreement, maybe not contractually but at least in terms of obediance to a higher power. For example, I think having the mystery surrounding the level of participation of the Dragons in the world opens us up to potential of evil entities even more powerful than the Dragons themselves. I think currently the Dragons are sitting idle, understanding of the higher power that could be unleased on them. But that doesn't mean the Dragons will forever sit idle, I think this sets up nicely for us to not only be able to search out and use Dragons as resources for knowledge, but also fight the ones that have decided they don't care about the Accord anymore. Further it sets us up for encounters with the entities that were able to pacify the dragons down the road. 

     

    So I could see the early content of Pantheon revolving around Dragons, and later expanding to include the higher level entities above them! 

     

    I'll continue to read the lore and post back when I'm done. Reading the lore is all I have to keep me at bay right now lol so I should finish soon. 

     

     

     

    • 2886 posts
    March 1, 2017 7:11 AM PST

    And this is why he got hired lol. Well done. Always interesting to look back at community posts of people that got hired from the forums.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at March 1, 2017 7:11 AM PST
    • 226 posts
    March 1, 2017 6:54 PM PST

    Yes, I've been wondering about this since I reread the lore (and noticed some of the original lore was gone or missing).  To my understanding or reasoning, it's a combination of things.  Granted, part of this is from my general understanding of science, but here is my overall conclusion about the situation regarding Terminus, the Collisions, and the Dragon Accord:

    1) Some higher power wishes to preserve life - this may be against Entropy/the heat death of the universe or it may be against a Big Crunch/Big Bang scenario (where Terminus is the arc so that sentient life survives which can be seeded on other worlds after the next Big Bang) or whatever.  The point being, some higher power believes that it needs to bring all of these races to a single locale.  Of course, save/preserve is simply a thought on my part - it could also be assembling them so that it could gorge itself on their life force at some point in the future, to which Terminus would play less the role of arc and more the role of farm.  (It should also be noted that this higher power may easily be more powerful than the individual Pantheons, as it seems just as capable of dragging them across time and space as it does the mortal races.  It could be more powerful than the collective Pantheons.  Alternatively, it could BE the collective Pantheons as a sort of "United Nations" of Pantheons...though this seems somewhat less likely due to both the Emissary's form and the Pantheons themselves not being of one mind about anything - even the INDIVIDUAL Pantheons containing members that are at odds with one another.)

    2) For whatever reason this higher power chose Terminus, it had to deal with the native (and powerful) Dragons.  The Dragons would either be a threat to it or a major annoyance to deal with beligerently.  For this reason, the higher power chose to enter into an accord.  This accord resulted in the Dragons agreeing not to eat all the mortal refugees being transplanted to the world, and even to (largely) abandon their homes to the interlopers.  At least for a time (agian, note the farm possibility above...which could even apply to the Dragons - if said higher being wants to eat them in the future as well, it would be better to convince them to stick around peacably.)

    3) The agreement bars most direct Celestial influence, and only allows Celestial influence in progressively weakening ways (it seems the barrier has gained strength over time) and through devolution to the point of the High Mortal form being on par with lesser Dragons, but clearly inferrior to the Dragon King and possibly other greater Dragons.  (If one goes with the Entropy/Big Bang argument in (1), it stands to reason that the Celestial Barrier might also be a protective shield to protect Terminus and possibly its solar system from said Big Bang.  This could even be the primary effect where the warding of Celestials is, in fact, simply a side effect.)

    4) The agreement also bars Dragonic destruction of the moral races - though with limits.  The blood for blood provision (indeed, the only provision we have strong evidence to believe is part of the Accord...though we don't exactly have proof that it IS, mind you*) seems to indicate that morals (or High Morals - again, it's unclear given the context we have) are subject to being destroyed by Dragonkind if they attack/kill Dragons or their perceived interests.  It should also be noted there were two occasions of the Snow Dragon intervening with morals that are known - one with Narian, who he seemed like he was willing to kill, and one with an attempt he made to contact the Gnomes, which failed since they didn't respond.

    .

    *It's possible this provision is from some other, unknown agreement, or was simply an expression of something else rather than an explicit wording of the Dragon Accord itself.

    I would also like to submit (and I did this in the class/race discussion in one of my posts about Gnomes) that we aren't even entirely sure that racing being brought to Terminus is an exact science.

    The Dark Myr are an example of a race brought to Terminus that would have surely died there.  It's like if you were trying to save a freshwater fish species, you wouldn't fill a fishbowl in your house with lava and acid and throw them in it, right?  And as I touched on in the class/race discussion with the Gnomes, there's an interesting bit in their lore which describes their flight from their home and arrival in Terminus.  In simple terms:

    1) The Gnomes that made it to Terminus refused the alure of the magic/power (which, consequently, eventually killed their star).
    2) They were placed on what amounts to a prison space-ship (which their captors planned to have in a decaying orbit so they'd eventually burn up in the star).
    3) The star became unstable because of the arcane hungry faction of Gnomes, and among other things, it punched a hole in the Dyson Sphere surrounding it.
    4) The Gnomes on the ship flew out through that hole, escaping the inevitable destruction of their star (probably**).
    5) The Gnomes somehow decide they can survive (even though they're already "safe"**), but they have to become energy beings.

    Point 5 leads to some VERY interesting questions:

    How did the Gnomes know they needed to do this?  Did the higher power tell them?  Yet no other race that ended up on Terminus needed to.  There's also no evidence that any other race got any forewarning - which the Gnomes would have had to have gotten to know they would need to abandon their bodies.  That is, did the higher power tell them it was going to transport them to Terminus but they needed to give up their physical bodies first?  In which case why would it do this for the Gnomes and no other races, and why have the Gnomes not made mention or record of this, which would seem to be an event of historic importance?

    Or did the Gnomes actually travel to Terminus ON THEIR OWN?  Perhaps using some magic based hyperdrive, they actually jumped their ship to Terminus themselves: Meaning the Celestial Barrier doesn't stop "conventional" methods of transport.  But while this more neatly explains how they knew they had to give up their corporeal bodies (no need for a higher power to tell them it was moving them, them reaching this conclusion on their own based on their grasp of their technology [maybe hyperspace jumps would destroy a body due to g-forces and other such, but not an energy "soul"], etc.), it brings up a slew more: How did they get the coordinates to Terminus?  Was it a "blind jump"?  Does this mean they could also LEAVE Terminus in their ship and go somewhere else? 

    **It should be noted that stars in normal science/physics/astronomy expand when they die due to some interesting balance issues between outward pressure due to fusion and inward pressure due to gravity, and how that tug of war leans first to one side and then the other when they get near death.  But instabilities can lead to different results, and then you also have the issue of the mass/size of the star which, for very large stars, leads to very large explosions and black hole formation, if not abject destruction of the star ENTIRELY into a massive stellar nebula with no core left at the original location in truely catastropic cases.  In this sense, it's possble had the Gnomes stayed in that solar system's area, they might still have been consumed by whatever their star would eventually have come to do.

    Indeed, the case of the Gnomes is very curious on several levels, and somewhat alters the dynamic of what the purpose of Terminus is or how races potentially get there.  For that matter, what if the Gnomes are an "extra" or "unexpected" race, or maybe they were eventually planned to arrive, but got their "early" since they came on their own?  It does seem clear that, with the exception of the Ginto, the other major races all arrived in groups of 3.  Is there significance to this, and how would the Gnomes fit in?

    ...of course, it could also have been a simple matter of coincidence: The Gnomes were preparing their hyperspace jump to ANYWHERE to escape the death throes of their star, gave up their bodies, and had completed the preparations for their jump...and just then, the higher power reached out to them and brought them to Terminus along its original timetable, with the events just HAPPENING to line up in such a way that it was after the Gnomes gave up their bodies, but that they were a planned addition to Terminus all along.

    .

    In any case, there are a lot of holes that need filling, and I freely admit that my viewpoint is based strongly on science fiction and my knowledge of real world science (a portion of my profession and education/degrees), but it seems reasonable while allowing for several possible interpretations/outcomes.

    I also freely note that I may be reading too much into the Gnomes and their part in all this, but it seems that they are a particular oddity to the story, in more ways than one, and their history's specific deviations from that of the other races seems to imply a potentially more complex picture (though again I'll also point to the Dark Myr being fish out of water, as it were).

    But yes, this is just my own theorizing, take form it what you will.

    • 284 posts
    March 1, 2017 7:06 PM PST

    So that was really interesting, and I'm glad that you're willing to speculate to such a degree. I'll only point out that the reason the Gnomes are ethereal is described quite clearly on their lore page, and throws a dent in your theory.

     

    • 226 posts
    March 1, 2017 7:33 PM PST

    In terms of the energy that was swirling/shifting about Skyhold from the lashing it got from Elos?  I suppose that makes sense, too (though is substantially less interesting.  :p)

    Oh, a few more points:

    -On the Dragon Accord being compulsory - This seems to be one possibility.  It's unclear if the higher power (again, using this as a general term as it COULD simply be the "UN of Patheons" or some such) threatened the Dragons (is vastly more powerful than them), treated diplomatically with the Dragons (is somewhat more powerful/somewhat equal to them), or, again, wants to keep them around as breeding/food stock.  In any case, it is apparent that it's on par with them, considering an "Emissary" (usually a term for a diplomat or leader who ISN'T the top/most powerful leader, like a diplomat to the UN is an emissary vice the Prime Minister of the UK or the President of the US) was able to grapple with the Dragon King to hold his mouth shut at least momentarily.  Whether this was by force or it was just the Dragon King being reminded at which point he simply restrained himself isn't entirely clear.

    -On the Collisions - It seems, historically, that Collisions occur every 300 years or so, with some variance.  The last collision was 250ish years ago, meaning that the next Collision could be imminent...or could be 150 years away.  Again, there seems to be a +/- variance going on.  Though it seems to go without saying at this point that there will be a trio of them when it occurs, though they may not all arrive at the same time.  The variation of the races ariving also seems to be getting smaller (with a dozen or so years for the first trio vs three sequential ears for the most recent), though this is based on a limited data set of only three data points, so it could be nothing.  It should also be noted the Ginto were a somewhat unique case, and further, it's unclear that the 9 races are even the only ones that should be properly looked at as "Collision races" transported from other worlds.  There are various other people groups that seem to have different forms of civilization that could also have just as easily been "Collision races", which would throw all this into the air.  The lore hints at there being others (other than the 6, anyway), as well as that the other races/people groups either arrived as part of past Collisions OR were extant on Terminus to begin with.  And it will be interesting to see more of their lore to see which is the more likely or if there's a deeper mystery going on that stretches farther back into the past...

    .

    EDIT: Oh, which is somewhat interesting in and of itself.

    Why do they come in 3s?
    Why do the trios NOT all arrive at once?  (Though it's possible some do and simply aren't "discovered" right away, the lore makes a point to note the Dwarves/Elves arrived at different times.)

    It kind of makes me think of that first episode of Star Trek: Voyager with that Caretaker thing and that one race of people on the desert planet that he started massively building up their stockpiles of food and supplies...because he was nearing his death.  Could it be that the Collisions will happen with increasing frequency and urgency going forward...?


    This post was edited by Renathras at March 1, 2017 7:36 PM PST
    • 284 posts
    March 1, 2017 7:41 PM PST

    I'll let that 'less interesting' comment slide young padawan. Does it go without saying that collisions happen in threes? Seems to me like published lore directly contradicts that.

     

    Anyway, my favorite mental image of the night is Gnomes on a Battlestar Galactica-esque mission, very amusing. Keep bringing the wild theories, it encourages me while I'm writing the dev glossary!

    • 226 posts
    March 1, 2017 9:24 PM PST

    "Less interesting" as in "Doesn't foster as many possible interesting questions" or "Is a bit more mundane".  That is, it's reasonable and fits a lore/rules or laws of the universe sense, but it doesn't present a lot of questining or mystery - they did it because they had to because they would otherwise have died from a poisonous magic miasma that had inundated the ship, meaning the reasoning is largely/entirely explained, so there's nothing really left to conjecture about as there is in my initial point of view (which leads to questions as far ranging as involving the Gnome's technology and potential capabilties to the higher power's potential interaction with races to the nature of the Celestial Barrier itself).

    So I don't mean it in a way of disparaging the lore so much as it doesn't present as many questions/mystery/direct opportunity.  That's all.  :)

    As for the 3s: Again, it doesn't.  That's why I pointed out the Ginto as well as noting the other peoples on Terminus and whether they were previous waves or not.  It IS clear that the last three known collisions seem to have invloved 3s.  Could one of those actually have been a 4 or a 5?  Maybe, and we just haven't met the other races that arrived in those waves.  And it's entirely possible that it's just seeing something that isn't there.

    For example, on planet Earth, there seem to be events that occur over time over and over, and people try to fit them towards patterns so they can speculate on some grand periodicities.  Like the major Extinction Events on Earth, which people have tried to tie to anything from "every so often we pass in front of a pulsar's jet's path" to "this must coincide with the Earth's magnetic core flips" to "the Sun maybe has a secret brown dwarf companion star and with this periodicity, it preturbs the Oort Cloud sending extinction causing meteors crashing to Earth".  There are also similar arguments for global warming/global cooling (ice age) periods, and periods of "punctuated equilibrium" where biodiversity/evolution seemed to happen more rapidly in certain eras (again, did we drift through a gamma radiation jet from some solar body causing more mutations and thus more evolution?)

    It's Human nature to try to see patterns, it's the way our rationality and brains work.

    Sometimes, there's nothing to it at all, of course.  It's simply coincidence or those "periodicities" aren't just things with a +/- margin; they are completely unrelated entirely.  Our attempt to promote those margins is, in fact, illusiory - blinding us to the fact that there is simply no relation.

    Other times...well, we call those other times "science".  ;)

    Science: When it just happens that we see patterns...that actually DO exist.  That actually DO have some base cause.

    .

    In any case, I treat fictional universes like I treat the "real" one I call home: I try to see if any patterns seem to exist or hold, and extrapolate what those might or might not mean.

    ...of course, in simple terms, the note that we're "due" for another Collision, in practical terms, means VR can add some more races in over the first decade of the game going live and still mesh with existing lore.  ;)

    .

    EDIT: And yeah, I'm increastingly interested in the Gnomes.  As much as I have a "no alt" policy as well as a "I will never again play a class that cannot heal"...I may have to make a minor exception for the case of Gnomes.
    MAY.
    We'll see how I feel once Alpha/Beta/Live hits.  I suppose a Gnome Enchanter might be okay...


    This post was edited by Renathras at March 1, 2017 9:26 PM PST
    • 613 posts
    April 12, 2018 12:44 PM PDT

     As we still don’t have but pieces of the whole there are interesting notations in other parts of the Lore that point to a different kind of agreement.  Here is what I mean…  from the Keepings of Castigue;

     “The truth is as I see it.” Tel’Nharssis’ eye flashed on me and held my gaze. “And so shall it be in the eyes of every last Rhy'Vulrene upon Nhystyrrok. Every Watcher, Ender, Protector, Devourer and even the Reignborn themselves shall cover the sky and ground like the all-consuming breath of the Dragon King. When word goes forth that an inquisitive, ignorant human has his wretched fingers clutched around even a copy of Rok’Nhilthamos’ signet-tongue, the empire of his people will be turned to ash and bone to retrieve it.”

     Granted the Dragons have immense power but there is an underlying tone with the above exchange.   The Accord keeps the dragons and their ilk at bay tenuously.  In some other writing it is put forward that they pulled back and left lands to in their minds lessor races.  The larger question is what could make the dragons do that?  The Celestial has been mentioned and I think it holds a great deal over the Accord and the Dragon King.   The Celestial may not be an all encompassing force but an actual race of beings as Jimmayas eloquently noted. 

     As a peace accord one would think that all parties involved would have agreed to meet at the bargaining table to stop hostilities on an even footing.  The animosity displayed by Tel’Nharssis is not only telling but a good indicator of who was the victor and whom got the better end of the agreement.  If the dragon races are still irritated to the point of making a statement as shown above.  There is a larger issue to consider and that the Accord was an armistice agreement and not a decree from the King handed down as a gracious document.  He was forced to sign it and it may be safe to assume one of the Kings contingencies was to write it in the higher language of the Reignborn.  This would keep the masses from understanding what had happened or the true underlying reason for the accord. 

     

    Just thoughts and musings here…..   Awesome conversation though….  Please keep this going….I love this…

     

    Ox 


    This post was edited by Oxillion at April 12, 2018 12:45 PM PDT