I'm brand new here but yes I am well aware of how group centered this game is intended to be. This post is not a challenge to the basic concept but intended to raise points related to just how far it will be taken. The FAQ (I think that is where I read it) acknowledged that there would be features put in to allow and encourage solo play as well as group play. Necessary since there will be times for almost all of us when playing in a group isn't feasible. Expectation of interruptions, desire to play when one hasn't enough time to do group content, simply feeling anti-social a particular afternoon or evening.
I well remember - yes it was many years ago - when EQ2 beefed up its outdoor mobs a bit and its dungeon mobs dramatically and said this is intended to be a group game and the difficulty now reflects it - live with it! Lasted a few months and was reversed - obviously the player-base wasn't willing to live with it and survival of the game took precedence over game philosophy.
Pantheon has the same grouping philosophy but also the same desire to keep enough players to maintain a healthy and money-making game. Niche to be certain they have said they aren't after true casuals (thank all Gods) but not limited to the hardest of the hard core. Too many of us have jobs and families for that.
So what features allow us to play solo when we need to without compromising the core philosophy? These will need to provide for real progress, as in some gear upgrades and experience beyond the totally trivial. But they will also need to be less rewarding than group play so as to incentivize people to group. Nor should they allow rapid leveling; a core philosophy is go slow and explore the content.
Possibilities that come to mind are solo zones at some, or all, levels where a character can survive and make some progress solo (at least many classes if not all). Instances intended for relatively quick solo visits - this would allow for far less content than full zones but *someplace* where one can go and kill or harvest when alone. Skirmishes of the type LOTRO has come to mind - these have both group and solo versions with difficulty varying accordingly. Or EQ2 instances where one can either group or go solo but without the excessive rewards that allowed these to be used as a speed leveling device to bypass all other content. Or even true group content optimized for quick 15 minute visits (for real but modest rewards) when one lacks more time.
I didn't check every post since the creation of the forums but didn't notice any that entirely covered this point. Apologies if I missed some. It is important to me since I'm one of the people that doesn't expect to be able to group every day but would like to be able to come on and make some progress even when I cannot.
I love new people. Welcome.
I think some of this fear of groups comes from crap games in the past.
Pick up a few people, kill stuff then walk away or instant teleport away.
There will be solo mobs, there will be solo content.
Will the good gear be hard to get to, yes.
Will the faster xp be in groups yes.
Can you get to max level soloing yes.
Can you log on and explore solo yes
EQ in the past was like forming up in the first Lord of the Rings and it went form there. Bonds were formed, people talked, people were people.
You have to spend some time working at things.
Its is so hard to explain in words the emotion that comes from a EQ style game.
OP I don't think you'll have much to worry about, certainly not a "kiss of death". While I never played EQ1, I played many years of FFXI which was in many ways an EQ clone. In that game, while it's true that levelling was primarily a group activity, there were many many forms of content that could be done solo or with a smaller than full group, even some types of exp'ing. Since this game is in that similar vein, and since word of God is that there will be sophisiticated lfg tools in place, I think the fear is unwarranted.
They never said there would be forced grouping. They've been pretty consistent in stating that, while the main focus of their content development would be around grouping, they encourage people to find ways to play the way they want - that specifically includes soloing.
If they follow a similar line to the original everquest, soloing can and will be a thing. I soloed a ton in EQ, but it was because I didn't have any friends online and I didn't feel like going through the hassle of finding or making a group. Since I was in the mood to relax and play the game, and my focus was not to be in a top exp group, I could always find something to fight. There were plenty of options for solo camps, but it just wasn't ideal for efficient exp. You could find some static spawns, 2 or three mobs, break the camp and then kill them one at a time over and over again as they repopped. However, if you're looking for something more akin to the more modern day solo mmorpgs (oxymoron?), then you may be setting yourself up for disappointment. I most definitely plan on logging in alone and soloing at times, I'm actually looking forward to it.
Pantheon embraces the idea that one of the core reasons early games like EQ1 (and many pen and paper games, not to mention MUDs) were successful was that they were significantly challenging. So challenging that grouping was your first option, with soloing a poor second. This reliance on others created a truly social game (unlike many of today's 'massively solo-players online') which fostered the most vibrant MMO community ever seen - both then and since.
Pantheon seeks to contructs it's core tenets around these ideals, though in some areas weaving a new piece of innovation into the mix. This is simply stated in the Tenets and FAQ for all to see before they ever set foot in the world of Terminus, let alone shell out a dime!
Games like EQ2 or WoW who now seek to redress their lack of challenging content, reinvigorate their jaded communities or get their player base to truly interact socially face an uphill struggle that you alluded to in your comments on EQ2. Once your player base is firmly entrenched into an 'on demand' world with limited challenge, you cannot then change the goalposts on them and expect them to buy into your new ideas! They will resist change - and the inertia of several tens of thousands os players is not an easy thing to overcome.
Pantheons player-base will come to it because of the challenging content: challenge that requires almost all to group in order to survive and prosper! Indeed, there will also be those who deem this challenge insusficent and so play on a PvP server! Further yet, there will be mad soloers taking on seemingly insurmountable challenges and succeeding by innovating and using their skills and abilities in new and magnificent ways! As an example: Before seeing Quad-kiting with your own eyes, nobody could ever have imagined such a thing was even possible!
Terminus will be an open world, full of challenges and ever present danger.
Feel free to journey there ... grouped or alone ...
Feel free to explore, hunt, craft or just hang out ...
But if you want your hand held ... ask a player, not the uncaring world!
All the above is the private opinion of Evoras and his 'cat-in-the-backpack' (patent pending)
Your mileage may vary significantly...
Based on almost every game that's done poorly in the last 15 years, it seems much more apparent that "forced soloing" is the kiss of death. Forced grouping games actually fair much better looking across the history of the genre.
Not that I like the term "forced grouping", because it's never actually forced. Even in EQ you could solo on any class to some degree.
I soloed quite a bit at times in EQ1 on a Ranger, Wizard, Shadow Knight and Necromancer. Really in that game and I am assuming Pantheon, it is a little choosing the class that has more ability to solo, over others(may take a little research), and more just finding a way. I know "just find a way" may not always be the answer people want, but thats really how it all started. People found a way to snare kite, fear kite, quad kite, root rot, pet dot, etc, etc. One of the number one things that made that happen and is also something the VR keeps stating, is that they do not plan to place limitations on players being able to do these things again or to find new ways to play the game that was not initially intended, emergent game play.
I play MMOs strictly for the grouping. If I wanted to solo, there are hundreds of games out there with better graphics, play styles, and fun. But, I am here to group.
Those that have raided a lot surely know that the scripts/strats are not the challenge. The challenge is getting 6-24 people on the same page, each performing their task timely, and effectively. Scripts/Strats are just the devs way of making the team think about working together in new ways.
Once you know the strats, the real challenge is simply getting a team to work together.
That is what MMOs are about. That is what I hope Pantheon is about.
Ill be happy as long as i can solo if im careful. if the mobs are so op that i cant kill them without a group, ill be disappointed. im all for challenging solo AND group content.
like previously stated, there are times where i just want to be in game, but not be committed to anything serious. just run around and kill some stuff. chat. sell. hang out. other times i may grind for 8hrs in an xp group. as long as we have options, Pantheon will be a success
To use comparable language, you're asking if it is the kiss of death, and most here view it as the breath of life in a MMORPG setting. It is certainly not what the market has been used to in the last 10 years, but many feel it is a key aspect of what it has been missing.
An impressive number of replies in a very short period this forum is lively!
If I thought soloing would be impossible I never would have signed up (and paid) but I did want to post in support of what I expected to happen anyway. Forced grouping is an attention-getting phrase but I've never played a MMO that took it literally (though the Healer class in DAOC came close since it was a struggle to solo a green mob and a gray might kill you).
I think its fairest to say that the consensus here is that there should be a focus on grouping but soloing should be able to accomplish something. Not separate but equal - separate and inferior - but viable nonetheless.
dorotea said:Pantheon has the same grouping philosophy but also the same desire to keep enough players to maintain a healthy and money-making game. Niche to be certain they have said they aren't after true casuals (thank all Gods) but not limited to the hardest of the hard core. Too many of us have jobs and families for that.
I'm sorry. I tried really hard to get my boyfriend pregnant but his ovaries must just not be working. It might be due to the fact that I neglected him while getting my PH.d and spending my spare time on a game. Emotional ovary trauma! Now I have no family and I can only rely on games to make me happy and fill that void.
dorotea said:Forced grouping is an attention-getting phrase but I've never played a MMO that took it literally (though the Healer class in DAOC came close since it was a struggle to solo a green mob and a gray might kill you).
Actually this is the true point . Soloing was and will always be possible . A game where it is impossible doesn't exist and wouldn't probably have much appeal to customers .
However in Pantheon it will be a significantly inferior option if the player's priority is to XP fast and to get upper end equipment .
And the most important and defining part will be in the class choice - some classes will perform well in solo, some will be average and some will be poor bordering on torture .
So if you put priority on the class choice, then the soloing ability will be a result of the class choice .
Some will choose their class to max the soloability (necro in EQ) and some will choose the class because they like it and will live with the resulting soloability whatever it may be .
You know what's Death? It's forced soloing. What's been shuved on our throats for the past 13 years. It's about time someone's trying to address this horrible game design decision and make a game that encourages, not force, grouping by implementing class-role mechanics and a combat system where resources matter and your mistakes can lead to a disaster so your cooperation matters. **** will happen and you'll be on your toes because veryone should pay attention and focus, adrenaline rises and your heart races because that death penalty stings... however, when you overcome this mistake/challenge everyone's going to high-five each other and scream F*** YEAH!!!!
If you make content designed for soloing, none of that can happen.
In other words, FORCED Soloing (I mean almost every other MMO that was released since World of Warcraft) is a BORING concept makes me wonder if anyone in the design team OR the players actually know what the **** they're doing? It's an MMO, right? I've been confused the last decade and I've always felt alone when it comes to this. But then I realized very few people actually tried something different so they have no clue what I'm talking about. It's hard to grasp a concept you've never seen or tried before. We, in the other hand, did.. and tried both... and can tell which one we prefer.
Ashvaild said:Ill be happy as long as i can solo if im careful. if the mobs are so op that i cant kill them without a group, ill be disappointed. im all for challenging solo AND group content.
like previously stated, there are times where i just want to be in game, but not be committed to anything serious. just run around and kill some stuff. chat. sell. hang out. other times i may grind for 8hrs in an xp group. as long as we have options, Pantheon will be a success
This. I find I could solo even as a paladin in EQ1, as long as I was careful. I don't mind that to get the BEST progress and gear, I need a group, but I could still make meaningful progress solo, even as one of the worst soloing classes in EQ. That is fine with me.
antonius said:Ashvaild said:Ill be happy as long as i can solo if im careful. if the mobs are so op that i cant kill them without a group, ill be disappointed. im all for challenging solo AND group content.
like previously stated, there are times where i just want to be in game, but not be committed to anything serious. just run around and kill some stuff. chat. sell. hang out. other times i may grind for 8hrs in an xp group. as long as we have options, Pantheon will be a success
This. I find I could solo even as a paladin in EQ1, as long as I was careful. I don't mind that to get the BEST progress and gear, I need a group, but I could still make meaningful progress solo, even as one of the worst soloing classes in EQ. That is fine with me.
I think for certain classes soloing should be doable and I love that about EQ1. But it should never be as effeceint as grouping or as rewarding, it should be an interesting and challenging option for everyone to take. I'm against artificially scripting anything to force a game deisgn concept. I want monsters to be hard like in EQ, I'm sick of NPCs dying within 2-3 seconds (solo). I remember soloing with my SK in EQ, it took minutes to kill one NPC. Oh boy did I kill Bosec and his friends solo in HHK so many times...
I recall reading a post by one of the devs that stated that there will be solo content in the game, but only a limited amount. Same for raid content. They broke down to a goal of 20/60/20 solo/group/raid. Even if that is the case I have no doubt that there are players that will be able, through skillful play of their class and use of emergent mechanics, to solo some group content as well.
I'm also sure that you will be able to solo in game, it's not specifically designed to except in certain cases I think, but VR has stated that they will not discourage it. As for group centered being the kiss of death? I sort of doubt it, as too many of us who are following Pantheon have fond memories of the stupid things we did with friends, the things we were able to accomplish, and the fun we had along the way. I am not a huge gamer, but I have enjoyed a few titles, and one of the worst things that I have seen are instanced dungeon finders where no one talks to each other. For players who are used to the solo way of leveling, remember that this will be more difficult, the mobs WILL be able to kill you. You won't be able to just run in and obliterate mobs without risk, and, due to the need to manage resources, you won't be able go from mob to mob indefinitely because your mana or stamina regen will matter.
I should have said it before, but welcome Dorotea :)
Thank you for the welcome. Pet classes often can solo better. Healing classes that are forced to focus on healing are awful at it - takes forever to heal a mob to death. Healing classes that have a battlecleric ability - perhaps by way of subclass or specialization - can also solo well. But I am no fan of the battlecleric unless it is clearly labeled by way of subclass name. Too much confusion in groups when the cleric thinks of him or herself as there to whack mobs along side the head with a hammer but the group desperately needs healing.
I agree that we play an MMORPG to group up but there needs to be some solo options. Remember having the dps, the cleric and waiting 2 hours for a tank. Ya, not too much fun. EQ's solution to that was the merc. Most people prefered a merc over a real player as it meant more loot for them/less people to have to share with. So that solution kinda worked and also killed the game or at least certain classes.
There were often clerics missing at raids so I leveled a cleric. Since most people wanted a merc cleric, I wasn't wanted in groups. I PL'd myself with my necro, got to 90-95, had no clue how to play a cleric properly but you know, if we needed one for raid...lol
patrick83 said:I agree that we play an MMORPG to group up but there needs to be some solo options. Remember having the dps, the cleric and waiting 2 hours for a tank. Ya, not too much fun. EQ's solution to that was the merc. Most people prefered a merc over a real player as it meant more loot for them/less people to have to share with. So that solution kinda worked and also killed the game or at least certain classes.
There were often clerics missing at raids so I leveled a cleric. Since most people wanted a merc cleric, I wasn't wanted in groups. I PL'd myself with my necro, got to 90-95, had no clue how to play a cleric properly but you know, if we needed one for raid...lol
Jeez...the level cap is that high now? And here i thought 60 was nuts
I'd like to point out here that soloing can mean a hell of a lot of things. I would prefer that we not write off the massive amount of exploration, crafting, adventuring and general shenanigans that also fall under the umbra of "things I can do solo just fine". I know that you mean solo exp'ing OP, but I just wanted to point out that there are many examples of arenas in which going it alone will probably be quite normal. Even farming of materials from lower level monsters, completing lower level perception system stories, what have you, all lend themselves to solo content.