Hello everyone,
One of my friend watched last stream friday and told me something. In his opinion, fight was slow and a bit sleepy.
I explain him that players were lvl 12-13 with few abilities, few statistics. I told him it was the same in each game at the start, it was the case in eq1, eq2, wow, etc..
And of course i reminded him the game was in early construction and most of tweaks will come, but an interrogation was borned in my mind, what about global cooldown.
I played several mmos like everyone, eq1 launched the bases of what was a combat.
It was fun, tactical and you were free to do lots of thing in combat but when pvp came in other games, they tried to even things with global cooldown.
To not advantage a class against an other, devs made in general a 1 second delay before recast or reuse a spell before the next ability.
Every games have one, but i liked eq2 for one thing in particular.
Their global cooldown system included 3 major layouts that buff, stuff, aa could modify:
- Casting speed (the speed with you're casting a spell, action melee ability where most of the time instant)
- Recast speed (time you need to recover the same spell or mele ability)
- And reuse speed (time between all of your spells and abilities, the general cooldown actually)
At a certain lvl in the game and with most of the class upgrades, it made combats very nervous and speedy. that's why i was borring when i played wow one year ago.
Even a melee class like monk seemed slow to me.
The counterpart was it ends in dps focus and i don't really want it (even more when they modified the dps curve in eq2, and of course haste for melee).
I prefer when it's more tactical than just a race for dps but i found combats in eq2 less boring than the other game because of that.
I know it will be different in pantheon because you said we'll need to choose our spells in one or two bar to prepare a specific fight, and it will be the start of the game.
We'll have to start from the begining. But i was guessing what devs are planning about this and what do you think about guys in the forum ?
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Oh and another little point,
I noticed that Cohhcarnage was using is yellow bar in the stream instead of his mana (blue) bar. I totally agree whith that, it's pure logical to use endurance for a melee class.
But sometimes in mmos as a healer, grp leader or just to give advice, i like to see my party bar and i mean all of it.
If a melee don't use his mana bar, why do we see it in grp window ? I'll prefer to see his endurance or both.
Sometimes it tells you if someone know how to play his class, i think we need a way to survey how someone is burning or managing his pool.
Well that's it :)
How do you feel guys in the forum about all of it ?
EQ2 did not have global cooldown. That term doesn't mean what you think it means.
Global cooldown means that nearly every ability you can use shares the same, usually short, cooldown. In EQ2, every single ability had an independent cooldown. I have no idea what makes you think that EQ2 had GCD.
RIFT is a good example of a game with GCD. You spam 1-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2 until the end of days, usually with an interrupt and some defensive abilities that were unlinked from GCD. EQ2's combat system was nothing like that.
Because there was one actually, and it was based on reuse timer if i remember and it wasn't a second, it was almost not perceptible.
But you're right in eq2 it was not a real global colldown (it was a real pve game such as pantheon), but enchanter class, bard class could modify with their buffs the "reuse timer" from less than tenth second.
Like this one: http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Upbeat_Tempo
With or without this buff, the rythm of a fight was totally different. And it made actually the eq2 gameplay very specific. I know what is global colldown :) That's why i made with post.
Using the term "global cooldown" to describe EQ2's combat system is patently false, that's the point I'm trying to make.
You're thinking of Recovery Speed, which was a mechanic to help with server performance and prevent the use of spam macros. With global cooldown, one of the hallmarks of the system is the use of macros. Spam macros are almost implicit with global cooldown, but you could not do that in EQ2.
Breakdown of EQ2's various mechanics:
Cast Speed: Works exactly like cast speed in EQ. Varies from ability to ability.
Reuse Speed: Works exactly like reuse speed in EQ. Varies from ability to ability.
Recovery Speed: A .5s timer that must elapse after the use of an ability before another ability can be used. This is notglobal cooldown. Even EQ will not let you instantly cast another spell after your current spell is finished casting, it just isn't modifiable like it is in EQ2 and it isn't explicitly stated on ability tooltips.
All 3 of these values can be modified to a hard cap of 100%, or half of the given value. Recovery speed hard caps at .25s.
Upbeat Tempo: Troubador ability. Reduces cast speed/reuse speed. Does notmodify recovery speed.
The effect that you feel when your cast speed/reuse speed are reduced is no different than having a focus effect in EQ that reduces the cast time of spells or improves their reuse. The difference is that in EQ2, all abilities (including melee) were affected, whereas in EQ, the closest thing are haste buffs and AAs that modify the reuse timers of your activated effects (this came into play in later expansions).
TL;DR: It is important when talking about EQ2's combat system to not conflate mechanics like GCD. It is misleading.
Liav said:EQ2 did not have global cooldown. That term doesn't mean what you think it means.
Global cooldown means that nearly every ability you can use shares the same, usually short, cooldown. In EQ2, every single ability had an independent cooldown. I have no idea what makes you think that EQ2 had GCD.
RIFT is a good example of a game with GCD. You spam 1-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2 until the end of days, usually with an interrupt and some defensive abilities that were unlinked from GCD. EQ2's combat system was nothing like that.
Well, technically speaking there was recovery time, which was kind of like a global cooldown, but it was .5 secs base, and .25 secs after modifiers (after TSO it was pretty easy to cap recovery speed and such). But yes, it had no global cooldown. I hate global cooldowns personally. FFXIV was unplayable for me because of it.
Edit: you'd already addressed recovery speed. Apparently I can't read.
Ok so i'm a noob and i go home ? thank you for the lesson :)
I agree with you about the misleading and i maybe shouldn't use this word of global cooldown.
I don't understand why you say upbeat tempo does not modify recovery speed actually. It's on the description of the spell and there were reuse and recovery in eq2 no ?
At last, if i created this post it's not really to talk about mechanics but to know what you're thinking about rythm in fight in general guys.
What do you think Liav ?
I couldn't agree more itvar. I hate GDC too. And i felt the same impression in certain games because of this.
EQ2 gameplay finished in a dps race. I don't want it. The question is what gameplay could we except to prevent monotony in pantheon ? and i don't talk about low lvl gameplay, we need to learn how to play at the start .
Every MMO I've ever played is a DPS race, that includes EQ and EQ2. Parsing wasn't pervasive yet when EQ first game out, but it will very much be relevant in Pantheon. DPS is an essential part of the holy trinity. Tanks and healers don't make things die, DPS does.
Also you're correct, Upbeat Temp does modify recovery speed. That's my mistake. Even so, the recovery mechanic in EQ2 is not even remotely analogous to GCD.
Pantheon already seems like the combat system isn't built to be spammy. Vanguard was spammy as hell and EQ wasn't spammy at all. With luck, we'll get somewhere in between.
Yes GCD is the devil and I hope the cast speed and recovery speed of each spell/ability is different according to what makes sense and according to the class. For instance I think more powerful spells should take longer to cast. Major abilities/spells should have longer cool downs too in general. I also think melee abilities should in general be quicker than any casters. But there should be exceptions like a stun spell. Also I would think there should be some variance between different magic schools. For instance common Wizard spells might be faster than Summoners.
The devs havent gone too much into specifics but I remember Brad commenting somewhere about some being insta-cast, some taking a few seconds but slowing movement, and some taking longer to cast but you have to remain still or get interrupted. Though I dont know if this has changed but sounds good to me.
Sounds perfect and very similar to EQ2, to me. For instance, some defensive temporary buffs were instant cast so they could be skillfully used on reflex to counter things like death touches and whatnot.
That is the ideal system to me. Wizards are slow casting, but extremely heavy hitting. Melee is fast, lower hits with maybe some long cooldown spike abilities. Of course, a Monk with a 2-hander compared to a Monk with two hand-to-hand weapons will have some discrepancies in how heavy hitting/fast they are. Ideally though, things like that will each have advantages for situational use.
If that is the direction they end up going I will be very satisfied.
Pantheon already seems like the combat system isn't built to be spammy. Vanguard was spammy as hell and EQ wasn't spammy at all. With luck, we'll get somewhere in between.
Yes i agree with you. it would be fine imo if it's the case.
Also you're correct, Upbeat Temp does modify recovery speed. That's my mistake. Even so, the recovery mechanic in EQ2 is not even remotely analogous to GCD.
It's true, we can't named that GCD.
Every MMO I've ever played is a DPS race, that includes EQ and EQ2. Parsing wasn't pervasive yet when EQ first game out, but it will very much be relevant in Pantheon. DPS is an essential part of the holy trinity. Tanks and healers don't make things die, DPS does.
It's implicit in my mind. DPS is part of the gameplay but when i'm thinking about dps now in eq2, it's ridiculous. I think we still could have fun without blowing the dps curve like they did even after many extensions.
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I hope they'll bring variety in combat. They said they were open to do opportunity, why not. It could add interdependence between class (but no heroic ooportunity eq2 system plz).
In general way i love temporary buffs/debuffs that bring modification in the pace of a long combat, including the one that modify the rythm you're clicking your spells or abilities.
PS: excuse me, i'm fighting with my poor english :/
The devs havent gone too much into specifics but I remember Brad commenting somewhere about some being insta-cast, some taking a few seconds but slowing movement, and some taking longer to cast but you have to remain still or get interrupted. Though I dont know if this has changed but sounds good to me.
I heard that too. I'm asking myself if the casting speed was linked to your "mana color" you choosed too. I forgot about it, but it's a new way to bring new rythm in a fight.
catharsis said:I hope they'll bring variety in combat. They said they were open to do opportunity, why not. It could add interdependence between class (but no heroic ooportunity eq2 system plz).
Oh god, you just triggered a flashback to the Three Sages in Palace of Roehn Theer.
Sounds perfect and very similar to EQ2, to me. For instance, some defensive temporary buffs were instant cast so they could be skillfully used on reflex to counter things like death touches and whatnot.
That is the ideal system to me. Wizards are slow casting, but extremely heavy hitting. Melee is fast, lower hits with maybe some long cooldown spike abilities. Of course, a Monk with a 2-hander compared to a Monk with two hand-to-hand weapons will have some discrepancies in how heavy hitting/fast they are. Ideally though, things like that will each have advantages for situational use.
If that is the direction they end up going I will be very satisfied.
I share totally what you said.
EQ2. I started playing during Sentinel's Fate. I remember something about flashpots with that encounter. Don't remember anything about HO's though. Either way, HO's were a terrible system, agreed.
catharsis said:Oh god, you just triggered a flashback to the Three Sages in Palace of Roehn Theer.
In eq1, eq2 maybe no ? what did you have to do ? what was the strategy ?
I think i didn't play this extension.
During that fight, the three mobs would get some kind of damage shield, and you'd have to execute archetype-specific heroic opportunities within a timed window to dispell the damage shield. If you failed, you wiped.
At least, that is how I remember it. It's been a while.
Edit: Liav - yes, flashpots were a thing too. I think the HOs are part of the hard-mode version of the encounter. But like I say, been a while. I remember having to swap tanks a lot since only one kind of tank could hold each of the sages without getting stunned, and in hard mode it would switch around.
Edit 2: Also, Roehn Theer fight was awesome. BTW, Timetravel (guy who designed that encounter) is a free agent I believe, hint hint.
During that fight, the three mobs would get some kind of damage shield, and you'd have to execute archetype-specific heroic opportunities within a timed window to dispell the damage shield. If you failed, you wiped.
Omg interresting strat but indeed with the OH system it should be hard Oo
catharsis said:During that fight, the three mobs would get some kind of damage shield, and you'd have to execute archetype-specific heroic opportunities within a timed window to dispell the damage shield. If you failed, you wiped.
Omg interresting strat but indeed with the OH system it should be hard Oo
I think I was a Templar (healer) back then but yes, it was. We were just off the back of Shadow Odyssey which introduced the "cure everything within 2 seconds or wipe" mechanic, so SF was a blast.
Solo healing Vig 3 and Palace was...fun?