I was going to post this in NoobieDoo's thread "December's Twitch: Santa's WIshlist"as something I would like to see in the coming December Twitch, But based on I couldn't find anything about it in searches. I figured to make it's own thread. (would still like to see something of it it the twitch)
It does somewhat go along with Gomak's thread "Guys, please..." where I agree with Gomak 100% about the staff for players. however this is more talking about NPC's as well as Player animations.
Hopefully it's just too early, (see Noobiedoo's Disclaimer.. I agree and fully understand) but I would like to see some simple idle character/NPC animations. This has been eating at me for a bit now, ever since I seen this screenshot from Black Daggers Keep
From what I can find Brad has a tendency to accept boring duplicated at ease NPC animations. Knees bent, arms hanging out
There was Original Everquest, Ok Overlooked that one as it was 17 years ago (animations were still not par with what could have been for the time)
Then Everquest II (not sure if that was Brad's team) but Terrible animations compared to WoW released at the same general time (within months of each other if I recall)
I never played Vanguard 2007, but I look at screenshots I can find on Google and I see it again
Vanguard_1, Vanguard_2, Vanguard_3, Vanguard_4, Vanguard_5
And now at the Pantheon Screenshot of Black Dagger Keep, there they are again. Three obvious NPC's standing, all with knees slightly bent, arms hanging out in some APE hanging stance... but worse.. ALL THE SAME.
People don't STAND like that... you can do better!
How People Stand_1, How People Stand_2 not even One standing with Ape Arms!
I'd really like to know if we can expect more, in my searching I have been watching Unity3d animation videos, it looks like that is the standard stance for a character/NPC, can VR break away from that?
(no offence Brad and Team.. just trying to offer up some constructive criticism here)
Ok, you do realize that almost all of the NPCs and I'm assuming their animations as well, are placeholders at this point right?
Unity does come with a free avatar to play with, but I can 100% reasure you, what you have seen in Pantheon, are not it. It looks nothing like these and does not have these animations either. Keep in mind, Unity makes it super easy to swap out animations and even avatars, so VR could at any point in development swap out any of that with something more polished.
I would definitely like to see some more fluid and personality driven NPC animations, but honestly I think we are a ways off before we really can start critiquing animation. We have only seen as of this point one character model and very rudimentary animations for said model, in the stream for Unite16, everything else to my knowledge has been placeholders.
Zorkon said:I was going to post this in NoobieDoo's thread "December's Twitch: Santa's WIshlist"as something I would like to see in the coming December Twitch, But based on I couldn't find anything about it in searches. I figured to make it's own thread. (would still like to see something of it it the twitch)
It does somewhat go along with Gomak's thread "Guys, please..." where I agree with Gomak 100% about the staff for players. however this is more talking about NPC's as well as Player animations.
Hopefully it's just too early, (see Noobiedoo's Disclaimer.. I agree and fully understand) but I would like to see some simple idle character/NPC animations. This has been eating at me for a bit now, ever since I seen this screenshot from Black Daggers Keep
From what I can find Brad has a tendency to accept boring duplicated at ease NPC animations. Knees bent, arms hanging out
There was Original Everquest, Ok Overlooked that one as it was 17 years ago (animations were still not par with what could have been for the time)
Then Everquest II (not sure if that was Brad's team) but Terrible animations compared to WoW released at the same general time (within months of each other if I recall)
I never played Vanguard 2007, but I look at screenshots I can find on Google and I see it againVanguard_1, Vanguard_2, Vanguard_3, Vanguard_4, Vanguard_5
And now at the Pantheon Screenshot of Black Dagger Keep, there they are again. Three obvious NPC's standing, all with knees slightly bent, arms hanging out in some APE hanging stance... but worse.. ALL THE SAME.
People don't STAND like that... you can do better!How People Stand_1, How People Stand_2 not even One standing with Ape Arms!
I'd really like to know if we can expect more, in my searching I have been watching Unity3d animation videos, it looks like that is the standard stance for a character/NPC, can VR break away from that?
(no offence Brad and Team.. just trying to offer up some constructive criticism here)
There is no offense taken by the team but you do realize that we have stated over and over again that we are using placeholder animations and character models? Meaning - in this very early stage of development we are just using placeholders so you can see some kind of character in there filling the world up, they are not permanent or going to be there for launch and we have made this very clear ;)
No, actually I don't know that. heard it about the player Character's they are using yes. but the NPC's, not so much. And even your comment "almost all the NPC's" ok... then I would like to see the ones that aren't placeholders.
That Unity makes it easy to swap out is good news. I was watching some Unity animation videos this morning and seeing how it was done. However it would still seem better to me to have them right in the first place and not have to redo them later. I guess what I'm asking is to know what were seeing with the NPCs in Black Daggers Keep is not what we can expect in game. I'd like to see one NPC in a standing state besides bent knees and ape arms as what we can expect once the "place holders" are replaced. (if those NPC's are indeed placeholders)
Edit: not complaining about what I have seen.. just saying what I would like to see.
Edit; Edit. I was typing this post same time you were responding Kilsin, So the NPC's at BDK are placeholders as well.. good to know! Would still like to see what we can expect
Trying not to speak out of turn here, but I completely understand the exasperated tone of the OP. Those like myself that have participated in MMO alphas and betas in the past may have a bit of cry wolf fatigue. I remember during ESO beta testing when the forums were ablaze with zealots decrying "xyz is just placeholder", but xyz in beta turned out to be the actual xyz. I was also there during Rift beta when there were again cries about the animations and character models and again the community hardliners scolded everyone because "it's all just placeholder". I could go on, but I've made my point. Most of this placeholder talk came from the testing community, not from the developers themselves.
To me, hearing this come from directly from VR holds a lot more weight. While we're all invested financially and emotionally Pantheon, VR has the most (everything?) to lose here. I have no doubt the final product will be their best possible work.
Regarding the community defense (and developer defense) of " This is only placeholder _________ ".
(( IMHO ))
As of November 28th, 2016, there isn't enough time to redo the following:
Zone world geometry. CIties & open world zones.
Dungeon geometry. Anything considered "interior" or "inside" zones.
Ground/road/variable-alpha textures.
Trees, grass, rocks, similar, water, rivers, doors, gates, similar interactive world placeables.
For those above items, I suspect we'll see less than 5% churn from now to launch, outside of simply deploying planned content. What you see is what you get. Might see things moved around slighty based on bug/feedback reports, but very little.
Now, for the things that can change a bit more?
Sound effects.
NPC Animations/rigging.
NPC models. (including pets, monsters, city dwellers)
NPC textures, clothing, wearables, tinting, variations, etc.
For those above items, I'd say we might see 10% churn. These tend to get a fair amount of feedback, but are typically low priority change in the task queue.
And now for the things that will change considerably:
Lighting.
Post processing effects.
PC models.
PC Animations/rigging.
PC Weapons, armor, gear.
Particle Effects. spells, gear, everything.
Music.
Skill/Spell nerf/buff "balance" passes.
For those items above, we might see as high as 25% churn. Mostly because that's what players care about the most, typically, and will complain the loudest about.
But that's it. There is no more "screwing around time". It's all implementation from here on out. IMO, significant system changes will only be in currency systems, LDON-esque gear adjustments, and similar. Things you can do with a different UI in game and new tables int the database. Static loot tables are confirmed. Static dungeons are confirmed. Remarkably few innovative mechanics, confirmed. During alpha and beta all you're going to see are zones rolled out, integrated, and play tested. Once all the zones for the first 5 tiers of content are done, launch. Then move into expansion mode and pray.
What has been shown to the public, and what the tenets will likely produce is EQ 1.5 (Not EQ1, not EQ2) with a slightly modern graphics engine, and completely new lore/story.
(( / IMHO ))
( And yes, I posted this so I can refer to it in the future, when people say "Why didn't you TELL ME!?" or "How did you not know!?". )
vjek said:Regarding the community defense (and developer defense) of " This is only placeholder _________ ".
(( IMHO ))
As of November 28th, 2016, there isn't enough time to redo the following:
Zone world geometry. CIties & open world zones.
Dungeon geometry. Anything considered "interior" or "inside" zones.
Ground/road/variable-alpha textures.
Trees, grass, rocks, similar, water, rivers, doors, gates, similar interactive world placeables.
For those above items, I suspect we'll see less than 5% churn from now to launch, outside of simply deploying planned content. What you see is what you get. Might see things moved around slighty based on bug/feedback reports, but very little.
Now, for the things that can change a bit more?
Sound effects.
NPC Animations/rigging.
NPC models. (including pets, monsters, city dwellers)
NPC textures, clothing, wearables, tinting, variations, etc.
For those above items, I'd say we might see 10% churn. These tend to get a fair amount of feedback, but are typically low priority change in the task queue.
And now for the things that will change considerably:
Lighting.
Post processing effects.
PC models.
PC Animations/rigging.
PC Weapons, armor, gear.
Particle Effects. spells, gear, everything.
Music.
Skill/Spell nerf/buff "balance" passes.
For those items above, we might see as high as 25% churn. Mostly because that's what players care about the most, typically, and will complain the loudest about.
But that's it. There is no more "screwing around time". It's all implementation from here on out. IMO, significant system changes will only be in currency systems, LDON-esque gear adjustments, and similar. Things you can do with a different UI in game and new tables int the database. Static loot tables are confirmed. Static dungeons are confirmed. Remarkably few innovative mechanics, confirmed. During alpha and beta all you're going to see are zones rolled out, integrated, and play tested. Once all the zones for the first 5 tiers of content are done, launch. Then move into expansion mode and pray.
What has been shown to the public, and what the tenets will likely produce is EQ 1.5 (Not EQ1, not EQ2) with a slightly modern graphics engine, and completely new lore/story.
(( / IMHO ))
( And yes, I posted this so I can refer to it in the future, when people say "Why didn't you TELL ME!?" or "How did you not know!?". )
How in the world can you possible say "there isn't enough time" when there's not even a set date for alpha? Is that just the amount of time until you lose patience? While some of your points make a certain amount of sense, you're a little too confident considering there's actually no foundation for anything you said. No one knows what stage of development they're in. It's all subjective and assumptions. In fact, the majority of what is said on the forums is pure assumptions made out of boredom.
As much as we don't wanna hear it, the fact that the game isn't gonna be released "until it's ready" really is the best answer. Sorry if you don't have that kind of patience or understanding.
I can feel for the OP but its just too early to criticize the games graphics/npc etc etc. Brad has said it so many times.. They want to focus on the foundation/core of the game. And the game is not even in Alpha yet, so most of everything are "placeholders". Dont look at the graphics at this point of the game. Its just too early for that. Most or some of the devs had a chance to work in Vanguard (and you know how that went). They are here now applying what they learned from VG. And I have to say they are on the right track. The devs have the quality over quantity mindset, and thats the best thing a fan like me loves the most...
I agree with you Zorkon .
I very well admit that some (all ?) NPCs may be placeholders . Kilsin seems to say that all are .
Then this thread is not criticism but a wish .
NPCs are very important for immersion . After all in every single MMORPG, the player spends more time seeing and interacting with NPCs than with PCs .
It is then how the NPC look and what they do and say what will impact rather significantly the immersion of the player in the new world . Especially during the first contact with the game .
For instance it is much more pleasant when the orcs in that dungeon are not just all clones of a single model and when they have attitudes that are randomly different . One may sit and yawn, another may sharpen his sword, over there a couple argues about something .
It is pleasant when the merchants hawk their wares and drunken dwarves sleep in Inns .
OK, you get the idea .
Another important point is NPC's memory . In very few games (Lotro is one of the exceptions) do the NPC remember that they have already met you and that in some cases you did work for them or even saved their lives .
I really appreciate it when an NPC recognizes me and chats a bit "Ah nice to see you friend . Do you still remember how we fought in X ? Time for a drink in sake of the old times ?"
I realize that a large part , perhaps even everything of the above is not priority in development . But I dream to find once a game where the NPCs look and behave like what I described above .
It's clearly very high on my wish list just below an AI which is not just a binary Idle/Attack what was done in every MMO and never improved since 20 years .
Deadshade said:NPCs are very important for immersion . After all in every single MMORPG, the player spends more time seeing and interacting with NPCs than with PCs .
It is then how the NPC look and what they do and say what will impact rather significantly the immersion of the player in the new world . Especially during the first contact with the game .
For instance it is much more pleasant when the orcs in that dungeon are not just all clones of a single model and when they have attitudes that are randomly different . One may sit and yawn, another may sharpen his sword, over there a couple argues about something .
It is pleasant when the merchants hawk their wares and drunken dwarves sleep in Inns .
OK, you get the idea .
Another important point is NPC's memory . In very few games (Lotro is one of the exceptions) do the NPC remember that they have already met you and that in some cases you did work for them or even saved their lives .
I really appreciate it when an NPC recognizes me and chats a bit "Ah nice to see you friend . Do you still remember how we fought in X ? Time for a drink in sake of the old times ?"
I realize that a large part , perhaps even everything of the above is not priority in development . But I dream to find once a game where the NPCs look and behave like what I described above .
It's clearly very high on my wish list just below an AI which is not just a binary Idle/Attack what was done in every MMO and never improved since 20 years .
I have seen a lot of what you describe in other games. Can't really think of one that had it all and it probably wasn't done as well as it could have been. But still, I have definitely seen elements like those across different games, so I think your wishes are fairly reasonable. Who knows what it'll be like in Pantheon though. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was at least part of Brad's longterm vision. He has been in MMO's so long, I'm sure he shares the same ideas. I bet even just some of the things you listed would make a big difference.
EQN got this unrealistic dream in my head about what AI in MMOs should be like -- Where most merchants' shops are closed at night, where nomadic bands of orcs roam the continent and work together to ambush lone adventurers. Where killing a goblin king launches a war between that tribe of goblins and your home city. And pretty much everything in between. AI is so incredibly complicated, I think it still may be too early (not even just in this game's development, but gaming in general) to expect these wishes to become fully come true any time soon, unfortunately. EQN basically realized that it was impossible to have this degree of realism in an online world and still have it be fun for everyone. This sort of thing works better in games like Skyrim. MMO's are a whole different beast.
Zorkon said:----snip----
I'd really like to know if we can expect more, in my searching I have been watching Unity3d animation videos, it looks like that is the standard stance for a character/NPC, can VR break away from that?
Yes, that's really all that was intended, a question, something I would like to see in the upcoming stream. A sample of what we can expect the finished at ease animations to look like.
Bazgrim said:I have seen a lot of what you describe in other games. Can't really think of one that had it all and it probably wasn't done as well as it could have been. But still, I have definitely seen elements like those across different games, so I think your wishes are fairly reasonable. Who knows what it'll be like in Pantheon though. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was at least part of Brad's longterm vision. He has been in MMO's so long, I'm sure he shares the same ideas. I bet even just some of the things you listed would make a big difference.
EQN got this unrealistic dream in my head about what AI in MMOs should be like -- Where most merchants' shops are closed at night, where nomadic bands of orcs roam the continent and work together to ambush lone adventurers. Where killing a goblin king launches a war between that tribe of goblins and your home city. And pretty much everything in between. AI is so incredibly complicated, I think it still may be too early (not even just in this game's development, but gaming in general) to expect these wishes to become fully come true any time soon, unfortunately. EQN basically realized that it was impossible to have this degree of realism in an online world and still have it be fun for everyone. This sort of thing works better in games like Skyrim. MMO's are a whole different beast.
I agree EQN very much wetted my appetite for AI, even if they couldn't deliver. I dont remember where but i remember on this website reading that evironments at least will change. They had an example where you killed the guards of some giant camp so storm giants come in and destroy that giant camp. This actually reminded me of EQN's goals.
Having NPCs respond to you differently is at base as simple as writing a few extra scripts on each npc, but if you take it to the next level it's kinda like how WoW started instancing things in the world. The city looked different to you based on what quests you had done. It's a cool idea but very hard to implement in a heavy mmo social setting.
Finally there's how the NPCs stand around. Certainly interesting and helps immersion but I gotta say making my character awesome, balanced, and unique takes precedence. Guess I'm selfish=p
My first knee-jerk thought when I started reading the OP was jumping to the conclusion that he was referring to NPCs literally just standing around...hour after hour, day after day, etc on and on never doing anything other than just standing there. Those shops in town? Same merchants behind the counters, never moving from that spot. The guards at the city gates there morning, noon and night.
Taking this approach I would agree with the OP and want a more lively approach taken towards NPCs I want them to be alive. Moving, pacing, guards being replaced, shop keepers sometimes going on errands or even having night-shift workers.
So skipping animations for now because I do know these are just placeholders, I would like to see NPCs being more active.
Bazgrim said:Where most merchants' shops are closed at night, where nomadic bands of orcs roam the continent and work together to ambush lone adventurers. Where killing a goblin king launches a war between that tribe of goblins and your home city. And pretty much everything in between. AI is so incredibly complicated, I think it still may be too early (not even just in this game's development, but gaming in general) to expect these wishes to become fully come true any time soon, unfortunately.
True AI is complicated, yes . But there has been tremendous progress in the last 20 years . Just take the voice recognition as an example .
Yet the AI progress in MMO over the last 20 years has been exactly ... ZERO .
We are still left with a binary single parameter behaviour - an NPC either does nothing or attacks . Everything is governed by a single parameter - the aggro radius .
At best there is a script for a raid end boss fight but that has nothing to do with AI, it is merely a prescribed scenario which is always the same (f.ex at x% of HP the boss calls adds) .
I have always wondered why it is so and suspect that it is simply because the MMO developpers are not familiar with AI research and AI software that already exists so that they are stuck in reproducing what was invented 20 years ago so that no progress is done .
Now even at a relatively simple level (like animal AI) it is possible to go beyond the standard idle/fight or scripted roaming model .
For instance I described a relatively easy to implement yet quite rich animal AI model here : https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1663/animal-ai-specifications
Deadshade said:True AI is complicated, yes . But there has been tremendous progress in the last 20 years . Just take the voice recognition as an example .
Yet the AI progress in MMO over the last 20 years has been exactly ... ZERO .
I think the difference here is not scale of AI, it's numbers. I'm no expert, so remember your grains of salt, but I don't believe you can compare MMO AI to voice recognition. Voice recognition is a narrow task that is very deep. What we're dealing with in MMOs is shallow and wide. They aren't being asked to develop some complex mechanic for a single AI monster, they would have to apply these ideas to each type of mob or possibly each individual group/mob. In order to implement some of the ideas like guard shifts, they would have to implement a guard house for each area, set timings to each guard group, and check the whole set for bugs. In order to do the merchants, they would have to tell each individual merchant where to go at what time.
You can either have AI driven by desires, wants, and needs (which would be really complex and still unique to mob type), or you have specific tasks you want the mobs to perform and give them a conditional list to determine when/what actions to perform. What I have seen MMO developers do in recent times is use the latter and build their conditional list based on desired actions. There is room to improve upon AI, but the developers really have a tough manpower task on their hands with it. It takes a lot of curating to make sure all different mobs have the right conditional list and to make it more complex is simply a numbers game. If I had to venture a guess, I would say that the AI progress that has been made in MMOs has been on the behind the scenes stuff, like GUIs and such making it easier to program in conditional lists or whatever they're doing.
Regardless of all that, I would hope that some unique mob tasks would be used to break up the monotony as the OP has claimed. Making guard houses and such seem like an awesome task and while they would take up time, I think it would be worth the effort in some cases.
If these points are countered in your link Deadshade, then sorry, but the link doesn't work unless you've got a higher end supporter account.
Zorkon said:No, actually I don't know that. heard it about the player Character's they are using yes. but the NPC's, not so much. And even your comment "almost all the NPC's" ok... then I would like to see the ones that aren't placeholders.
That Unity makes it easy to swap out is good news. I was watching some Unity animation videos this morning and seeing how it was done. However it would still seem better to me to have them right in the first place and not have to redo them later. I guess what I'm asking is to know what were seeing with the NPCs in Black Daggers Keep is not what we can expect in game. I'd like to see one NPC in a standing state besides bent knees and ape arms as what we can expect once the "place holders" are replaced. (if those NPC's are indeed placeholders)
Edit: not complaining about what I have seen.. just saying what I would like to see.
Edit; Edit. I was typing this post same time you were responding Kilsin, So the NPC's at BDK are placeholders as well.. good to know! Would still like to see what we can expect
Watching a tutorial on how to swap out an art asset in Unity, be it a character model or a rock or a castle wall, gives absolutely no indication of the time to create that asset. It's like watching a video on how to pull BBQ out of a smoker and thinking, "Well hell, that's easy. Real high quality BBQ only takes 2 minutes." It gives no appreciation at all for the weeks it takes to actually create the model you're swapping out.
One high rez character model is a painstaking creation, before you even begin the equally arduous job of creating all the veiwable items that might be equipped by it. Yes, punching them into most any game engine is easy enough. But the creation is usually a very long process involving a pipeline of artists. There's a concept artist who makes the style sheet, which is used by the 3D modeler/sculpter to make the model, which is used by the texture artist to apply the colors and surface properties and the animator who builds the skeleton and deformation envelopes and animates a figure. And in today's "normal" pipeline there's also an actor who acts out the motions of the character in MoCap, which creates a map of the animations which are then applied to the character and invariably have to be fiddled with for days to get the damn things to integrate with the model well without looking like an epoleptic having a siezure.
With the skeleton crew that Pantheon is currently working with this would mean that the artists (and perhaps only one artist) are fully consumed by a final character for a week or two. Or, they could be creating the tens of thousands of basic models needed to test the game in a format that's presentable to the public without looking like Minecraft. Trees, paths, buildings, dungeons, castles, towns, wildlife; some basic form for all of these is needed so that they can actually play to see if the game is functional, and to hone the mechanics underlying all that art to a format that's worthy of the massive time investment for final art in a high quality visual experience.
Look at the credits for most any major game title. You'll see that well more than half the staff is usually artists. Sometimes there are 100 people or more working the title, and 70 are artists. It's arguably the most time-consuming and expensive portion of the game's development, and more often than not they go unnoticed and unappreciated. I've worked as a subcontractor in 3D modeling. It's a **** job. You are always at a deadline, you're always working really long hours, you're always getting badgered by the next artist in the pipeline who has his own deadlines, and you're constantly reworking things after they were plugged into the engine and anomolies with their implimentation are found. And usually you're not paid ****.
I'd much prefer that a basic world be built so that widescale testing and balancing can be done. If the character models are the last thing that goes in before release, I'd be just fine with that because it'd mean that the world had been given all the due diligence it needs to make playing the game fantastic.
Feyshtey said:Watching a tutorial on how to swap out an art asset in Unity, be it a character model or a rock or a castle wall, gives absolutely no indication of the time to create that asset. It's like watching a video on how to pull BBQ out of a smoker and thinking, "Well hell, that's easy. Real high quality BBQ only takes 2 minutes." It gives no appreciation at all for the weeks it takes to actually create the model you're swapping out.
One high rez character model is a painstaking creation, before you even begin the equally arduous job of creating all the veiwable items that might be equipped by it. Yes, punching them into most any game engine is easy enough. But the creation is usually a very long process involving a pipeline of artists. There's a concept artist who makes the style sheet, which is used by the 3D modeler/sculpter to make the model, which is used by the texture artist to apply the colors and surface properties and the animator who builds the skeleton and deformation envelopes and animates a figure. And in today's "normal" pipeline there's also an actor who acts out the motions of the character in MoCap, which creates a map of the animations which are then applied to the character and invariably have to be fiddled with for days to get the damn things to integrate with the model well without looking like an epoleptic having a siezure.
With the skeleton crew that Pantheon is currently working with this would mean that the artists (and perhaps only one artist) are fully consumed by a final character for a week or two. Or, they could be creating the tens of thousands of basic models needed to test the game in a format that's presentable to the public without looking like Minecraft. Trees, paths, buildings, dungeons, castles, towns, wildlife; some basic form for all of these is needed so that they can actually play to see if the game is functional, and to hone the mechanics underlying all that art to a format that's worthy of the massive time investment for final art in a high quality visual experience.
Look at the credits for most any major game title. You'll see that well more than half the staff is usually artists. Sometimes there are 100 people or more working the title, and 70 are artists. It's arguably the most time-consuming and expensive portion of the game's development, and more often than not they go unnoticed and unappreciated. I've worked as a subcontractor in 3D modeling. It's a **** job. You are always at a deadline, you're always working really long hours, you're always getting badgered by the next artist in the pipeline who has his own deadlines, and you're constantly reworking things after they were plugged into the engine and anomolies with their implimentation are found. And usually you're not paid ****.
I'd much prefer that a basic world be built so that widescale testing and balancing can be done. If the character models are the last thing that goes in before release, I'd be just fine with that because it'd mean that the world had been given all the due diligence it needs to make playing the game fantastic.
See, this is why Pantheon needs to hire the Skyrim mod community, you did a good job helping us know just how difficult it really is to give npcs life.
Still, at some point it would help the game to feel much more...2017
Feyshtey said:Frankly the game could be minecraft quality graphics as far as I'm concerned, so long as the game play is solid, complex, deep and compelling. I dont need shiney crap to distract me from poor design. I need a good game.
Umm, not Minecraft, certainly. Maybe EQ1 with updated animations?
But I get your point and agree...let's have a great game with (hopefully) great graphics.
Ainadak said:
I think the difference here is not scale of AI, it's numbers. I'm no expert, so remember your grains of salt, but I don't believe you can compare MMO AI to voice recognition. Voice recognition is a narrow task that is very deep. What we're dealing with in MMOs is shallow and wide. They aren't being asked to develop some complex mechanic for a single AI monster, they would have to apply these ideas to each type of mob or possibly each individual group/mob. In order to implement some of the ideas like guard shifts, they would have to implement a guard house for each area, set timings to each guard group, and check the whole set for bugs. In order to do the merchants, they would have to tell each individual merchant where to go at what time.
Well I have worked in the AI domain and I often noticed that people have generally wrong ideas about what an AI is and does .
For instance voice recognition is a good example of AI . You don't want to create a mega data basis where a program would look for data . On the contrary you want to create a self learning process which is able to improve itself without the programmer prescribing every single step . You want your software to be able to "understand" (most) words over an almost infinite range of frequencies and prononciations what is exactly what an intelligence does .
AI is contrary of script . What you want is NOT to provide predetermined decision trees - this is what you described and it would be indeed a huge and useless undertaking because that would be no AI .
What you want is to provide INTELLIGENCE or a simulation thereof and not scripts or decision trees .
So, clearly , you do NOT want to tell every merchant where to go at what time (that would be again a script) but you want to provide every merchant with an engine which allows him to make informed decisions HIMSELF where to go at what time . It is this latter which would be an AI .
And actually it is the same engine for all merchants and it works for all monsters too .
The context is different but the engine is identical because the definition of intelligence is the ability of adaptation to the environment and this works for all NPCs and PCs regardless of what they do at instant t .
So the task of an AI is actually simple - it defines what to do when the environment changes and to remember what works and what doesn't .
Of course an MMO world is extremely simple so that the changes of environment are very simple too . This allows to use simple AI models - for instance the number of possible actions for a merchant or a monster in an MMO is a relatively short list which can be explicitely described on 3-4 pages .
And again, it is not this list which is AI .
AI is the engine which allows to any NPC to decide for this or that action depending on the context . And of course at the core of every intelligence real or artificial is the learning ability .
Technically this is represented by dynamically "weighting" the actions - a successful action increases the weight while a failure decreases it so that the AI gets better and better at what it does .
All that exists in software packages which could very well be adapted to a virtual world like an MMO and what is surprising is that nobody did an attempt at making more "intelligent" NPCs in 20 years .
It may very well be true what was said above - 70 % of developpers are generally artists and 30 % are programmers so that no % is left for tasks like AI .
And I often wonder - what would be more groundbreaking and fun to play : photorealistic graphics and real voices everywhere with an AI of 1990 (example TESO) ?
Or less perfect graphics and less perfect voices but an AI which presents to the player a dynamical and ever changing environment (unfortunately no example sofar) ?
Of course given the limited ressources I do not expect Pantheon to include a state of the art AI but it is on N°1 place of my wish list that the AI would be better than the binary stand/attack in every other MMO . It is not forbidden to hope ....
Actually a state of the art AI would have to be bridled anyway because from the AI point of view an MMORPG is so simple that a true AI would beat the human players all the time what could be a bit frustrating :)
Interaction Zones.
A defined area the NPC can be in. Not just a pathing point to point. But rather a box an NPC will dwell in until interacted with. Once interacted it will do as it actions require it do. Merchants can be merchants in their defined shop - wandering around the shop, bar, cart until interacted with. Guards will guard in their defined area wandering its defined area. It can be set small (guard gate) or large (common area, room, dungeon). This defined area allows a random wander - and not a specific, predictable path.
Yes, AI with parameters to follow when assigned a specific NPC task. We do t want any empty bars because the barkeep wandered away. Nor, the gate left unguarded because the guards went to watch the sunset on the other side of the castle...
I thought Vanguard was motion captured animations? Maybe not ... or maybe only combat.
As the principal developer in charge of NPC AI, I can assure you that the types of things you are hoping for are exactly the types of things I am hoping for, particularly for behaviors generated more from basic priorities and determining the best way to fulfill those priorities rather than generic scripting doing the job. A good portion of that is already in the code and I am currently working on adding new and interesting behaviors for testing.
I can't disagree with anything Deadshade and astraeus mentioned. I will say the design takes into account the possibility of "learning" over time through weighing positive/negative outcomes but that may be overkill for an MMORPG and it would be fairly easy to make the AI just more difficult over time rather than more interesting, at some computing expense as well that might not be necessary.
In general terms, if an NPC is hungry, it should try to find some food. It might look in the normal area where it has a food supply. If there is none there, it might travel around a bit looking for food. If it can't find any, it might look for an animal to kill that would provide the food, and attack it. If we want to get really crazy, if a set of NPCs can't find food, they might migrate to another location, and perhaps displace the population there through a protracted battle. In a "learning" system the prey might realize that standing in that area is not safe, and migrate away as well.
My son says if the NPCs have a cook, and a rogue travels into the dungeon and kills the cook, and the NPCs can't eat, they may start to venture out of the cave looking for food. Or, players might place some food near the entrance of a cave, and that food source would be closer than their typical source, and they might venture out to eat. These are the kinds of gameplay elements that I'd like to see.
Now, I have no idea if we'll make hungry NPCs. If we did, we could have a hunger scale of 1-10 that is their disposition for needing to eat. At any given time they might have other more pressing priorities to attend to. But occasionally the "Hunger" priority will trigger and they will respond. And as NPCs spawn, they might have a range of say 4-6 for that particular behavior, and might act slightly differently than the last time they spawned.
Substitute any particular disposition for "Hungry" and imagine the same type of process, and you get the general idea of how I'd like AI to work. I want behavior to be predictable to some degree, in order to be a better player through experience, but for surprising behaviors and reactions to occasionally take place, and for players to experiment with ways to alter behaviors in their favor.
I will get into more details as we go along, but wanted to make sure you knew this was getting serious attention. My personal belief is that AI has been really ignored in most MMORPGs and if done correctly can really make a game stand out.
