Hi All,
One of the most frustrating aspects of many MMOs has been the act of class rebalancing. It is a disruptive force that creates angst and animosity among the player community. While some class re-balancing is always needed, it's a dangerous path.
I have faith that this team won't rely much on class rebalancing as Mr. McQuaid was lead developer and producer for EQ1. EQ1 did a good job of class balancing. Rangers, druids, necros, paladins, shadow knights were generally thought of as "underpowered" in EQ1 and couple years in were given some love to address this issue.... and it worked well. My guild had an abundance of these classes as many guilds only wanted a couple (stocked up on warriors, clerics, encanters, rogues, etc). After this rebalance we kicked some serious butt, and it was needed.
However, this is true because EQ1 didn't have to worry about PVP. I believe this development team will put an increased emphasis on PVP if they plan on having PVP servers. And there in lies the danger. Every game with strong PVP elements continuously rebalance classes, and inevitable cause dissary and destruction to their own game. It's just ridiculous as certain classes are always juggling position of "best or worse class." This is ridiculous.
The developers need to focus on what they want the class to do within their world, and less on how the classes face off against each other. Keep a strong focus on the job of the class. I don't care or expect a cleric to take out a rogue in 1 vs. 1 PVP. Trying to balance the cleric to have a chance, will break the classes for PVE.
By focusing on the job of the class, PVP would still be viable, but more of a group format PVP instead of individual 1 vs. 1 PVP.
Just my 2 cents... I've seen too many games suffer from the "class inequity in PVP." That cycle needs to be put to an end.
There is a good discussion of this going on at http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2412/class-balance. A lot of things have been discussed including pro's and con's and whether or not people think it should or shouldn't be done.
Thank you Kelenin :)
My CM content thread on class balance has a lot of great discussion in it, I will, however, leave this one open as it is slightly different.
Revjak, first of all welcome to the forums, second of all please use the search function prior to creating new threads, I know you are excited and trying to get as much information as possible but several of your threads have already been discussed to death over the years, so please just try to type a few keywords in the search bar found at the top right side of the page here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums before creating any new threads, if you do not find any hits, then, by all means, create a new discussion topic :)
Revjak said:Hi All,
One of the most frustrating aspects of many MMOs has been the act of class rebalancing. It is a disruptive force that creates angst and animosity among the player community. While some class re-balancing is always needed, it's a dangerous path.
I have faith that this team won't rely much on class rebalancing as Mr. McQuaid was lead developer and producer for EQ1. EQ1 did a good job of class balancing. Rangers, druids, necros, paladins, shadow knights were generally thought of as "underpowered" in EQ1 and couple years in were given some love to address this issue.... and it worked well. My guild had an abundance of these classes as many guilds only wanted a couple (stocked up on warriors, clerics, encanters, rogues, etc). After this rebalance we kicked some serious butt, and it was needed.
However, this is true because EQ1 didn't have to worry about PVP. I believe this development team will put an increased emphasis on PVP if they plan on having PVP servers. And there in lies the danger. Every game with strong PVP elements continuously rebalance classes, and inevitable cause dissary and destruction to their own game. It's just ridiculous as certain classes are always juggling position of "best or worse class." This is ridiculous.
The developers need to focus on what they want the class to do within their world, and less on how the classes face off against each other. Keep a strong focus on the job of the class. I don't care or expect a cleric to take out a rogue in 1 vs. 1 PVP. Trying to balance the cleric to have a chance, will break the classes for PVE.
By focusing on the job of the class, PVP would still be viable, but more of a group format PVP instead of individual 1 vs. 1 PVP.
Just my 2 cents... I've seen too many games suffer from the "class inequity in PVP." That cycle needs to be put to an end.
I understand what you're going for here, however, it is absolutely expected that pvp changes only affect the class in a pvp setting. It is already implemented in games where spells/abilities affect players differently than NPC's.
Your example of 'eventually the classes got some love and were good!' is not what I would consider acceptable. People had little to no options back in EQ1. Where were they going to go? DAoC? Star Wars? You either rolled a different class or you dealt with your class' shortcomings. Each class still brought something, so it was worth having a few, but there was some definite inequality in what classes brought to the table.
I for one would like there to be an abundance of class balancing. Balancing of power and each class doing equal damage are very different things. As you mentioned, what the class does and brings to the table should be balanced with other classes; not just their DPS, but utility can be quantified and compared to other aspects of the game.
Constantly striving for class balance should be a good thing, no? You said that your balanced guild kicked butt after some class balances. VR seems to have the mindset of primarily PVE, secondarily PVP, so I don't think we should be worried for a PVP balance negatively impacting our PVE experience.
Senthin,
You have good points, however, to say class balancing or even class design based around PvP doesn't effect PvE is not true.
Take utility/crowd control abilities (stun, mesmerize, snare, disarm, attack speed and run speed modifications as a few). In PvE, these are necessary skills in a game that is designed to be challenging to players. However, in PvP these abilities are considered very powerful as players tend to not have the "hitpoint" base or innate damage output as a PvE monster. Thus, they limit these class abilities to short durations with potentially diminishing return as well.
Thus, class abilities, sometimes class defining abilities for PvE are now limited due to their impact on the PvP environment.
This is just one example.
Revjak said:Senthin,
You have good points, however, to say class balancing or even class design based around PvP doesn't effect PvE is not true.
Take utility/crowd control abilities (stun, mesmerize, snare, disarm, attack speed and run speed modifications as a few). In PvE, these are necessary skills in a game that is designed to be challenging to players. However, in PvP these abilities are considered very powerful as players tend to not have the "hitpoint" base or innate damage output as a PvE monster. Thus, they limit these class abilities to short durations with potentially diminishing return as well.
Thus, class abilities, sometimes class defining abilities for PvE are now limited due to their impact on the PvP environment.
This is just one example.
Sure, Disables are strong in PvP. So you altar the affect they have on players. Is this normally a 30 second stun on NPC's? Okay, we'll make it a 3 second stun on Players.
Your point was that you didn't want balancing PvP to affect PvE. I'm saying that PvE and PvP for the same spell/ability can have different effects.
Personally, I'm a PvE player, i care little-to-none about PvP or how balanced it is. It sounds like you were of a similar opinion, and you didn't want PvP balancing to affect PvE. I don't think this will be an issue.
Maslo,
Very true about class rebalancing is good and needed, I will add... when done for one environment. When they rebalanced the hybrid classes in EQ1, it was around a PvE environment.. not PvP. Most development slip-ups I see is when they balance classes on the PvP end and end up adversely effecting how the classes perform in PvE.
In my opinion, a game should be designed for one main aspect (PvP or PvE).. and the other as a nice splash if necessary. Trying to balance between the two very different environments compromises the integrity of the vision of the game.. and then ulitimately how it plays. I've seen too many games fail their entire player base by trying to deliver on both ends, and then ultimately pleasing no one.
There is evidence that developers now understand this, and are focusing on one over the other. Star Wars Battlefront and Overwatch are two that come to the top of my mind that are focusing on PvP, ditching PvE content, and doing very well for that focus.
I will say this, PvP in MMOs is a very popular element for many players.. I understand this. I'm just expressing what I've learned and noticed recently. I haven't really seen a game succeed at both other than maybe WoW... but even that game started as more of a PvE with PvP arenas (arathi basic, alterac valley) initially until it expanded later. I admit I haven't played every game either.
That's the beauty of these forums. It's basically like having several hundred free consultants on what we've all seen work and not work through the decades.
Anyway, I'll stop posting on this thread. I know this is a topic that has seen much discussion over the last year... I just wasn't a part of it then. Very solid points in that thread as well.
Closing this up as per the request of the OP as it has been discussed many times before and we want to try and keep all discussions consolidated so they are easy to fiund for developers and community members alike :)
Please feel free to continue the discussion in one of the already active threads.