Hello Fellow Adventurers!
A fellow mate of mind, made a very interesting post on reddit the other day and I decided to bring that question here to all of you,
"Morning fellow PRF peoples,
In regards to ammo (ammunition) what would you rather see in Pantheon? For those new to the genre, what I mean is ranged classes like an archer, or someone with a rifle/pistol, would have to purchase/craft actual bullets or arrows to use their class.
As you level, you would get more powerful ammo, or some might have element effects or other effects like piercing damage, poison, blunt damage.
I personally think Ammo is a good idea, especially if you can craft/buy some with effects on them. What do yall think? To Ammo or not to Ammo?'
-Jorconn
I personally believe that for any classes that is dependant on ammunition such as; arrows, rocks, crossbolts, cannon balls, pellets, bullets, etc... That the item should take up slot in your inventory unless you have a specific bag for it, quiver for arrows, hapsack for bullet, etc.. These bags could be crafted through , leatherworking for example, and each bag varies on size, amount, and special effects. In order to carry holy arrows, you need a quiver made from the hairs of a fallen goddess or something. As of now we know that there is an Archer class, but who know if down the line where will be a dual pistol wielding halfling. Having infinite ammo seems a bit ridiculous, it should come from something, whether it be physical arrows from you inventory or quiver or arrows made out of mana there should be a limit.
What do you guys think?
What would you like to see personally?
p.s. here is a link: https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/59ineb/ranged_dps_ammo_or_no_ammo/?st=IUREDKI3&sh=837b14cf
I also agree with having a particular spot for ammo, whether that be bullets, arrows, rocks, etc. Having a quiver or knapsack is what will be required to hold more. Possibly having a quiver or knapsack is necessary before even utilizing the ranged weapon. One aspect that I miss from Asheron's Call was the ability to find and reuse the arrows shot, and I think that provides a unique aspect to the game and adds that extra realness to the aspect of a game.
Ammunition...interesting, but why stop with such a limited scope? Add to that reagents, the 'ammunition' of spells. Some spells should require reagent and depending upon the spell perhaps more than one. Some reagents should be consumed when casting while others can be a 'just have on your person'. Make those reagents span the range from buyable off merchants to looted off mobs to player created.
And not to saddle just the casters with this burden, but have reagents required for some weapon procs. If the proc mimics a spell, make it require the consumption of or at least having the reagent.
While I not want to say, that there should be no need of munition for ranged weapons, I don't like the "discrimination" of ranged DDs.
I'm with the idea of Vandraad, maybe all classes should have their reagents, that they need to do damage. Or the classes which need munition or reagents should at least have on extra bag slot for their specific stuff.
But when e. g. a ranger in comparison to a mage needs to buy his munition while the mage can cast for free and the ranger even needs to use space in his bags for his munitions, then there should be other benefits of the ranger over the mage.
As I always have space problems in the MMORPGs I play, I would decide to not play a class, that has so much less bag space compared to another, just because I so strongly need that space for my playstyle.
I never had a problem with the Endless Quiver AA (although I never played a Ranger, myself).
However, if Rangers are going to be forced to have to gather ammunition in some way, then one of two things has to be done to make it fair:
(1) Caster DPS also needs to be required to gather some type of ammunition/reagent to cast DPS spells, or
(2) Ranger DPS must be better than all caster DPS.
There is no reason why a Ranger should be saddled with ammunition requirements to do equal or lesser DPS than a caster that requires no ammunition or reagents.
So what you are saying is that a class that has superior melee over a caster class must get the same benefits as a caster when using a ranged weapon?
Usually, hybrid classes such as a ranger have a higher melee DPS and better armor. The advantage of a ranger is the ability to not only utilize a ranged weapon but a melee as well.
Fairness is not a part of a regular RPG; you require a team to make it fair; therefore, a casting DPS must utilize a tank; a tank a healer, a healer a tank, etc. A ranger being a hybrid class can fill in the role of a multitude of different abilities, however, will never be as proficient as the classes that are one dimensional. As much as I see each point in a fairness scale, there is no such thing as equity in real life, and I agree with the same in an MMORPG, every class has its positives and negatives.
Reagents with casters is an excellent idea. However, that is what mana would be. It takes arrows to fire a bow, and it takes mana to cast a spell. The only difference between mana is that it is ethereal whereas arrows are an item that takes up space as in a quiver or inventory. I do think a quiver should be worn in an armor slot, and the arrows are stored in that area, not to take up space in a backpack or inventory slot. Ammo should run out; I agree that it is strange to have an unlimited supply of ammo.
I LIKE the idea of requiring regents for some things, but not just for the sake of requiring a regent. Everquest HAD regents for some spells.
I still see "Portal Fragments" around that early on were required for Wizards to Teleport. With a Wizard as my main these didn't make a lot of since... simply needed to go to the right vendor and buy them. There should have been more lore attached... maybe they could be aquired by finding them on the ground in a noob zone, this would create social interaction. A high level teleporting class would either have to run around the noob zone himself finding them for or like I did in EQ for bat wings.. stop by Felwith ever so often and over pay all the noobs for them. Everquest really dropped the ball here.. great opportunity to create social interaction and they missed it.
Early Levitation spells required a Bat wing to cast.. later they got rid of this requirement and I feel that was a mistake (Social interaction killer)... this gave reason to head back to a noob zone and meet/help a noob player out, 1 gold or 1silver to a noob for a stack of bat wings is nothing for a level 50.. but that's like the jackpot for a level 10 that's trying to feed himself or buy his spells. Today you can buy them by the thousands at a merchant... another mistake (Social interaction killer) no need to go meet a level 10 now or have them working for you.
My Ranger used a bow, this required Arrows and this in turn opened up the door for the Fletching tradeskill this was great. He learned to make Arrows and Bows, fit's right in line with what I refer to as Building a Character what's a ranger that can't make an arrow? This could have been a bit better if some of his regents needed farmed by noobs. Feathers from mobs, sticks for shafts off the ground, stones to make arrow heads. there was no reason some of these could not be looted if found in an abundance to satisfy the demand.
So the Need/Don't need ammo out of "fairness" to me needs thrown out the window.. life is not fair get used to it! Is how I was raised (and is indeed my experiance in life). THAT is not a good reason to do anything in Pantheon. Its ALL fair because we all have the same choice of classes. One should not require a regent just because another need one. One should not get an extra bag space just because they need regents (arrows, portal fragments, bat wings etc.) I consider that all under hand holding an entitlements.
And I'm with Isaya "dead set against bullets and firearms"
tldr:
Regents are Great (building a character ) but they should make since and serve a purpose.
Zorkon said:I LIKE the idea of requiring regents for some things, but not just for the sake of requiring a regent.
Early Levitation spells required a Bat wing to cast.. later they got rid of this requirement and I feel that was a mistake (Social interaction killer)... this gave reason to head back to a noob zone and meet/help a noob player out, 1 gold or 1silver to a noob for a stack of bat wings is nothing for a level 50.. but that's like the jackpot for a level 10 that's trying to feed himself or buy his spells.
My Ranger used a bow, this required Arrows and this in turn opened up the door for the Fletching tradeskill this was great. He learned to make Arrows and Bows, fit's right in line with what I refer to as Building a Character what's a ranger that can't make an arrow? This could have been a bit better if some of his regents needed farmed by noobs. Feathers from mobs, sticks for shafts off the ground, stones to make arrow heads. there was no reason some of these could not be looted if found in an abundance to satisfy the demand.
One should not require a regent just because another need one.
Regents are Great (building a character ) but they should make since and serve a purpose.
Well said. Also different classes can need different re-agents/items. I remember I learned to carry some peridots- just in case I was able to group with a cleric- as soon as I joined I would give them some peridots. I did not expect it for my benefit, more for the tanks. And then of course the humor of being older and more sophisticated in your class and after a hard battle- and some minor thing needed to occur where you would say "of course I can (*spell*)" and then realize- you had no reagents. Lol the Druid and group looking around in the area for bats with the astonished- "you know, I can't believe there are no bats here!" heh.
The thing to remember is that when you remove some aspect of the game that one group of players view as an inconvenience, you're likely removing an aspect of the game that another player enjoys. Remove arrows and you remove the following as well:
- Crafting arrows (potentially of various qualities)
- Collecting and selling materials for arrows
- Crafting quivers (potentially of various qualities)
- Collecting and trading materials for quivers
- Planning to ensure that one does not run out of arrows on a long epedition
- Resupply runs
- Social interaction associated with sourcing arrows if you don't want the low rent NPC vendor arrows
This is just the list off the top of my head. While not having to stock arrows is convenient, it also obviates a number of other in game activities. Make enough decisions based on player convenience and you begin to get the shallow experience that plagues so many other MMOs.
Some more things to consider in the need for rangers to use ammunition vs mages using magic is that Rangers have virtually no limit on how much dps they can produce, it depends on how deep their pockets are. Mages on the other hand have to manage their mp in order to be effective over longer duration battles. Ranges also have the ability to be a bit more mobile compared to mages...
Lot of people here who apparently never played EQ or didn't understand the order of DPS classes.
If Rangers require ammunition/reagents for DPS then casters should, too. Period. The only exception is if Ranger DPS is clearly better than all casters. Anything else is ridiculously unfair and selfish.
I don't mind the endless quiver concept, as long as it is tied to mana or stamina, so that the class needs to conserve their shots much like a caster class.
Add that most ranged weapon classes are better equipped to switch to melee in moments of need versus a caster class.
Personally I always hated having to carry ammo and/or craft it. I would rather be immersed in some great combat than worrying about keeping my ammo in stock in my bags. Of course ive also always hated having to repair gear. While having those things in game makes it more like RL, it doesnt really add much to game play. Although on the other hand forcing people to do it breaks up the monotony of shallow combat systems and are good time/gold sinks.
I think the best aspect of forcing ammo or reagents is that its somewhat fun when you run out to be able to gather the items around you and make more. Some of my fondest memories in EQ were grinding a camp with friends or just haning out in commonlands and getting drunk in game or crafting food in between healing on pulls.
As long as it's not unlimited, I don't care. As a more oldschool RPG player I think players should have to buy, craft, or summon arrows. Consumables should play a big role in the game.
Grimix said: Am I the only weird one who liked using ammunition? It's just weird to me to have an endless supply of arrows.....
Again Vanguard did it best with Rangers. Harvest matertials to craft their own arrows or you can buy the normal ones like others. It took so little time to make your own arrows and the self crafted ones were well worth it.
Searril said:Lot of people here who apparently never played EQ or didn't understand the order of DPS classes.
If Rangers require ammunition/reagents for DPS then casters should, too. Period. The only exception is if Ranger DPS is clearly better than all casters. Anything else is ridiculously unfair and selfish.
Sounds like you want to make Rangers some sort of Godly, do everything amazing class. Do you even read the posts in this forum? First off, in EQ, Rangers were not a DPS class, they were a hybrid class and there have been multiple posts explaining that mages already have a regeant for casting, it's called mana, rangers don't need mana to shoot their arrows.
I really think the game should start with players having to carry ammo, but have in mind some type of talent/item that later on (Possibly even an expantion of two down the line) that would alter that need. But if your going to make people carry ammo, then without doubt needs to be a slot for a some type of ammo carrying device such as a quiver with it's only inventory slots to carry stacks of arrows or whatever.
I don't really buy into the "Well if we have to buy ammo, everyone one should have to buy some type of reagent for ranged attacks" arguements, thats just rediculous. Every class will have their caveats, trying to make everything "Fair" almost immediately starts watering down classes. I'm sure Wizards will have some type of reagent for portals or whatever, but for casting in general? Thats a little stupid.
I really do think there are alot of benefits to the whole ammo concept over all, such as:
1. Cash sinks, while it does not have to be a huge amount of money, this could be another way to bleed a little money out of the economy. Like it or not, the game needs to cash sinks.
2. Crafting, crafting, crafting.....The possibilities here are almost endless, from making different types of arrows and knives, on to quivers and satchels
3. Player interaction, if you allowed a Rogue or Ranger to poison their knives and arrows, possibly you may need to buy ingredients from lower level characters that are out and about, creating an economy just for ammo related items
4. City life, anything that causes you to periodically have to go back to town for whatever reason is a great idea. One of the worst things that can happen to an MMO is when the game is designed in a way that makes central hubs pointless
Personally I would love to see the creation of different types of ammo become just another means of making your character unique from others. From playing EQ and now into the WoW clone era, what i want more then anything is a means of becoming unique again, ammo is just another way you can make that happen.
geatz said:Sounds like you want to make Rangers some sort of Godly, do everything amazing class. Do you even read the posts in this forum? First off, in EQ, Rangers were not a DPS class, they were a hybrid class and there have been multiple posts explaining that mages already have a regeant for casting, it's called mana, rangers don't need mana to shoot their arrows.
The concern probably is that mana regens without you doing anything. Arrows require harvesting time and crafting time or spending money. So for certain spells I think reagents should be required.
Personally I would like to see a system that encourages crafting of arrows for special occasions and resource monitoring for all times. I get why some people say that it would put an undue toll on archers, but I feel like that sentiment treads into WoW territory where no classes are unique. I do believe that burdens should impact the classes somewhat equally and that areas of pure comparison should be balanced IF/where it occurs (melee dps? / ranged dps? / healer hps?), but not by mirror mechanics unless it really makes sense. Perhaps an ammunition system could work well if based on the following...
A system something along those lines would incentivize crafting of arrows, but not be necessary. Players could instead take the small hit on dps in favor of buying plain arrows from the shop.