For me, at least, immersion is not a static state that is acheived while playing. It's dynamic and I believe there's a range of intensity with immersion. It also means some elements might be more favored in terms of immersion than others (sound quality, PC animations, etc, etc) as peoples tastes are considered.
I completely agree with the 'internally consistent' descriptive mentioned by vjek. If the game is deficient in engaging you, holding your interest, or does not evoke some emotional response allowing you to drift off from reality to some degree then it lacks some immersion quality.
i have lost track of time while playing EQ. i distinctly remember having so much fun socializing while killing things (something that seems to be gone with todays action heavy combat), that i lost track of time and it was 3am before i knew it having to be up by 8am for work. i never forgot i was in a game. for me, it was more like i WAS my character. i WAS the rogue backstabbing. when i recount my EQ stories to my friends, its never "my rogue did this or that"; its always " I did this or that". i never got that with other MMO's. in other mmo's i'm always saying stuff like my mage did this. but in EQ, i WAS my character. immersion may mean different things to other people. some people would like to forget they are sitting in a chair. i just want to feel like i AM the rogue i'm playing and being able to say "I did this" again.
I'll talk about a moment of immersion breaking for me from somewhere outside a video game:
While watching Star Wars Attack of the Clones for the first time I was literally taken out of the movie(and said to myself "no") when an alien Jedi jumps up onto the platform where Dooku and Jango Fett were watching the battle below. Jango takes three laser blasts to send the Jedi tumbling to his death over the balcony. It was the first(and only) time I had seen a Jedi look so weak regarding blaster fire. It broke immersion not because the Jedi fell to blaster fire. Several were falling on the arena floor due to the overwhelming number of shots. It was the ease of Jango or lack of skill shown on the Jedi's part that did not compute. It was like the rules were changed for that one instance. When established rules and norms were broken, it took me out of the film. Consistency is a big part of immersion.
Searril said:It seems like 3/4 of the posts around here are someone saying "let's do this or that for immersion". I'm amazed at how often that word comes up here, although my perception may be skewed and it may just be a handful of people who tend to post a lot.
At any rate, it appears people are thinking the game can be made in such a way that they forget they are playing a game while playing it. Am I right or am I not understanding this. I have played quite a fair number of games in my life and cannot recall a time I ever was "immersed" to the point of forgetting I was playing a game.
The thought of "immersion" never entered into my mind as a reason for me to support this game (it still isn't a reason, obviously).
Do people really have memories of playing EQ or FF11 and forgetting they are playing a game or am I not understanding this whole "immersion" thing.
I'm asking because I see people lobbying for game mechanics that make things tedious or inconvenient for the sake of "immersion", and I'd like to think I'm open to others' ideas (although Occam's razor = good, tedium and inconvenience without a real good reason for tedium and inconvenience = bad).
So if anyone is willing to explain to me exactly what MMO "immersion" is I'd be eager to know.
(BTW, this question was spawned by someone in another thread wanting NPC merchants to not be available during store closed type hours which I find to be an utterly bizarre request, so that's why I'm asking.)
For me immersion is anything that helps me forget that I am playing a game. I want the game to make me afraid to die. As a player I want to feel the need to be careful when I am exploring new areas. I want a realish looking world not a colorful cartoon. Based on what I have seen in Pantheon screenshots and videos the world is exactly what I am looking for. I look forward to getting suprised and killed and cursing like a sailor because I love and hate it at the same time lol.
This is also why i dont listen to music ever when playing a game. I want to hear the game sounds which really helps me feel like I am in another living breathing world. I know I miss some really cool music built into games but i always turn it off.
Immersion is different for everybody. Some people see and feel things differently than others. Immersion is the suspension of disbelief. Losing yourself into a good book is often a great example of immersion. The story comes alive, your imagination takes ahold and you no longer are simply reading words, in a sense you are living them.
For me, I love a good book but love a good MMO even more. I have played EQ and VG for many many hours and have been very immersed into these games. The hours fly by without me keeping track and eventually I no longer am paying attention to the pressing of keys or bringing up menus on the UI or at times am I even paying attention to what I'm drinking or eating. I can easily get lost into an MMO if it is done well. EQ really brought home immersion for me. I actually like VG more but I think EQ was a tad more immersive for me, I really bought into the EQ world and universe where VG was more of a great grouping MMO that streamlined some of the things that made EQ feel more like a living breathing world.
People often bring up the auction house vs EC Tunnel/Bazaar topic but for some of us we really are immersed by the face to face trading and the player interactivity that comes along with it. Seeing 20-30 people bustling about trading with others, chatting with each other, buffing others, forming groups, etc. just how alive those 2 areas are always will immerse me more than seeing 20 people standing in front of a single AH NPC while they sift through screens and screens of items via an UI element on their screen at home. And this is just one example of how I can personally become immersed versus an example of how I can lose that immersion.
I wonder if the immersion concept makes a bit more sense to Searril after these examples, hopefully it has cleared it up and it shows why trying to make a game that does try to at least include as much immersion creating features is a good thing! There is a definitely a point at which it could become counter productive though and i can understand why this would frustrate someone who is not interested or doesnt experience any immersion when playing.
Lghtngfan said:Fairchild said:But I find that others equate immersion with imagination, but they're not really synonyms. That explains why some people think its "immersion-breaking" that (as an example from EQ1) an NPC stands outside his house in one spot 24/7 to act as a vendor. If a person sees that NPC, gets annoyed by it, but still plays for three more hours not realizing that amount of time has passed, then it really hasn't broken that person's immersion. It's just spoiled a bit of their in-character idea of what the game should be.
However, the power of each individual's imagination can work far greater than any mechanic put in a game. If I approach that NPC I mentioned before at in-game midnight, I can pretend that he had been asleep but heard me coming and came outside to his post. Or I knocked on the door and he came outside. Anything can be explained away (even a PC naming himself PKer001) if your imagination is strong enough.
Absolutely this. Call me Provicial, but when I saw "non-stick frying pans" I thought that was a little imersion breaking, however if it had said seasoned cast iron pan I would have been ok with that lol.
I think this next story from a post on allakhazam from 2004 nails down immersion and imagination and how they mix. In this telling, who was immersed and who was imagining? ( I could not copy and paste so I am re-typing)
Oct 22 2004
"I and my RL sister (67 Ranger) were on a road trip and stopped at a truck stop between outpost of civilizations on interstate 20 way down in Texas. Of course we continued our discussion of the bows we were using, our accuracy, The arrows we were making. Grumbling how difficult making steel shafts were if you did not have the Mark of Karana. Then we moved our converstion along to hunting bears and wolves out in the Karanas seeking high quality skins. sis had gotten to the part where she ws saying "....and at about 125 feet, I figured I could get off at least 2 arrows before the bear charged, and I would probably have to ruin for camp..." and our drinks came. Several voices from the next table asked, "so what happened next? did ya get the bear? and is hunting still legal there? whos your guide and canI book him for a trip out there?." We looked over toward the next table and there must have been a dozen truck drivers hanging on every word of Sis' story. We were aghast...they thought we were talking about real world bow hunting. They joined the conversation and the entire restaurant sorta joined in exchanging hunitng tales. We never did explain we were talking about an online game."
Imagination and immersion
Good question! To me its not necessarily "forgetting" youre playing a game or watching a movie, thats called VR, dreaming, or being delusional lol. You do need to relate to it though. Take WoW, you got GPS navigation, RNG upgrades, dungeon porting, golden "!"... i mean the list goes on. Thats WAY too much "game" not enough "world." More engaging the UI and not the "world" your character is in.
I dont know about hiding NPC's away or gating content on time of day but the way I see it is this; Build the world as realistically as you can and only remove things if they dont really add (or even take away) from gaming elements. Waiting for the right time for NPC's to show up? Thats mostly waiting... waiting games suck. Things like GPS navigation is convenient but not only is it very unlikely to exist in a fantasy world, it takes away the game of exploration. Finding your way around the world, discovering new things and hidden treasures are good things... even if sometimes it frustrates you because you cant find something. The dreaded golden "!" is another example... with it players have no interest in a new location other than the special ones with the golden "!" over their heads. Take it away and now players have to engage the area, "talk" to the NPCs there and learn about the town. Thats what good effective immersion is to me.
Not to be outdone by the usual ambient and detailed world. That helps too ;)
Lol Kal. I thought of this when the subject of ammo came up in another post, and my comment belongs here more than there. I understand wanting to feel like the world is "real" and stuff, but how many people who want immersion would accept using just one backpack, or say 30 arrows max in a quiver. If Pantheon has certain restrictions for the sake of nothing else but making players wait to go adventuring, I think the game would end up to be pretty annoying for a lot of people. I totally get losing yourself in the game, and that for me is immersion, as others have said.
Kalgore said:Immersion. A term loosely thrown around by players that have no real argument against features or content so they use Immersion as an excuse.
Sounds more like you're describing the "rose colored glasses" argument that people throw around when they can't logically dismiss someone's opinion or thoughts on immersion.
Immersion is the magic created from an experience that makes sense based on it's setting.
~~~ <()> ~~~
Valor and virtue ride with me, my blade defends the helpless,
my might upholds the weak, my words speak only truth,
my wrath undoes the wicked!
<~ Vaultarn Stormborn ~>
Games usually have an internal logic and aesthetic that informs and shapes the player experience. Good games "feel" a certain way because they are designed to feel that way. When a game's visual, musical, and mechanical aspects align to reinforce a particuar aesthetic then playing the game immerses one in that experience directly. You're not thinking about playing a game, you're not thinking about working the controls, you're directly engaged with the experience.
On the other hand, when some element of the game experience doesn't align with the core aesthetic, it tends to stand out and draw attention to itself rather than support game as a whole. A good example of this is player character naming. You can build a beautiful game set in a fantasy setting with amazing music and game mechanics which match the setting but the moment you have to interact with a player with the name "Slvtfcker" floating above his head you're jarred out of the experience due to the incongruity.
Things that break immersion are things that take you out of the direct experience. It's one of the reasons I don't like the Wilhelm scream, it's become so overused that when I'm watching a film I immediately stop engagin with the film directly and instead experience it as "I am watching a film on a screen".
Kalgore said:Immersion. A term loosely thrown around by players that have no real argument against features or content so they use Immersion as an excuse.
I disagree. Games are like any other experience. Ideally all aspects of the game align to allow one to be readily absorbed in the experience. Things that distract from that direct engagement detract from the experience. It's the difference between waltzing with someone and waltzing with someone while thinking about how to dance a waltz.
Ever read a book and get caught up in the story? That is immersion.
True, I have never been playing a game and forgot that I am playing a game. In fact, I believe I have reminded others from time to time that, "It's just a game folks."
But, that said, I have enjoyed times of game-play where excitement overwhelmed me. Perhaps is was the realism of the game setting, the music, the actual environment that produced a certain feeling, maybe the mobs that I was running my back-side off to circumnavigate so that I could reach that rare piece of ore tucked away in the crevice of a rock. There are many things that can lend toward immersion and or take away from it.
I agree with the tone in the OP- Tedium is not what I consider immersive, but I can say that building an enormous three masted Galleon to sail upon the high seas in one click of a button is not very realistic either.
Immersion does sometimes cost something. Some count repitition as a cost that equals immersion. I would not agree to that train of thought. But for me to value that fantastic sea going galleon, for me to feel immense loss when it gets dragged under the waves by a ravenous eight legged behemouth, for me to experience immersion, it needs to cost something and that something usually involves a certain amount of time invested.
Immersion probably means something a little different to each individual player. To me it simply means being a part of the game and a valued member of the group or company I keep when playing. I live for those moments when I have made a significant contribution to the team, whether it is offering the sea going galleon, that I labored for months to craft, up to the group for an adventure of exploration on the high seas, or simply to offer my healing hand as a cleric to the group as we delve into the dark of yet another unopened tomb.
On that note, I must add that I have never enjoyed seeing a merchant standing out in the middle of the street for no obvious reason selling wears with no stand, lock-box, etc... It is out of place and not immersive what so ever. Things need to make sense and have purpose. I agree with the merchant who closes his doors at sunset. It is closing time. Dang it, If I want to do business with that merchant, then I need to get to his store during the hours of operation. Who knows, maybe sunset is the same hour that the somewhat shady fellow steps out into the back alley to sell some rather unscrupulous wears instead. That is immersion.
FierinaFuryfist said:I'll talk about a moment of immersion breaking for me from somewhere outside a video game:
While watching Star Wars Attack of the Clones for the first time I was literally taken out of the movie(and said to myself "no") when an alien Jedi jumps up onto the platform where Dooku and Jango Fett were watching the battle below. Jango takes three laser blasts to send the Jedi tumbling to his death over the balcony. It was the first(and only) time I had seen a Jedi look so weak regarding blaster fire. It broke immersion not because the Jedi fell to blaster fire. Several were falling on the arena floor due to the overwhelming number of shots. It was the ease of Jango or lack of skill shown on the Jedi's part that did not compute. It was like the rules were changed for that one instance. When established rules and norms were broken, it took me out of the film. Consistency is a big part of immersion.
+1. Excellent post! This scene did the same thing to me as well when I watched it. I call it a "convenient plot development". I call these out when watching movies or TV all the time. My wife gets annoyed...
Manouk said:I think this next story from a post on allakhazam from 2004 nails down immersion and imagination and how they mix. In this telling, who was immersed and who was imagining? ( I could not copy and paste so I am re-typing)
Oct 22 2004
"I and my RL sister (67 Ranger) were on a road trip and stopped at a truck stop between outpost of civilizations on interstate 20 way down in Texas. Of course we continued our discussion of the bows we were using, our accuracy, The arrows we were making. Grumbling how difficult making steel shafts were if you did not have the Mark of Karana. Then we moved our converstion along to hunting bears and wolves out in the Karanas seeking high quality skins. sis had gotten to the part where she ws saying "....and at about 125 feet, I figured I could get off at least 2 arrows before the bear charged, and I would probably have to ruin for camp..." and our drinks came. Several voices from the next table asked, "so what happened next? did ya get the bear? and is hunting still legal there? whos your guide and canI book him for a trip out there?." We looked over toward the next table and there must have been a dozen truck drivers hanging on every word of Sis' story. We were aghast...they thought we were talking about real world bow hunting. They joined the conversation and the entire restaurant sorta joined in exchanging hunitng tales. We never did explain we were talking about an online game."
Imagination and immersion
Amazing story. If a game can make enough sense such that when you are talking about it in RL others think it is real, then you know you have a great game world.
Truth is, this could be bogus, but the fact that I think it is such an amazing story and could possibly be true means it holds up as immersion.
