One point I don't seem to see anywhere (forgive me if it has been) and feel very strongly about and I feel should be addressed from the (pre-) start, is that I don’t want to see an epic become worthless because of game expansions. I know that is a long way down the line, but foresight is forewarned.
Do you think that epic viability and progression should be carried over to expansions or should each new area provide its own epic tales?
I kind of hope they go the EQ route of class quests for your class epic weapon. Like something that is hard enough to detur most players so not everyone was going to achieve it. However be appealing enough to still want to complete no matter the time frame or difficulty because its that worth it.
This is one of those 'simple questions' with far-reaching implications :)
What you are really talking about is:
'What changes will new expansions make?'
Typically, MMO developers are way behind the curve. By the time they are jalf-way to creating new content, the player-base has already reached max level (many times) and explored all 'end-game' content too. This means that they have a tendency to try to distract the player-base with 'new shinies'.
These, inevitably, are
higher level caps
'better' zones (kills old ones),
'better' classes (kills old ones) and
'better' gear (out-dates current 'best' gear).
The last of these directly impacts things such as 'Epic Weapons'.
Since some of the above is almost 'inevitable', your choices seem limited to:
1. 'make them soooo OP for now',
2. 'oops too bad, yeah they suck now' or
3. Option 3.
It seems Brad has hinted at 'option 3' from what I can tell. I.e. 'epic 2' that requires 'epic 1' to be cached in. His comments were more about general pieces of gear and about quest/spell type upgrades, but it seems 'logical' (in the sense of not having any concrete info yet), albeit speculative, to suggest this is the likely path for option-3.
So, it is likely (TM) that your Epic will stay almost as powerful as Kilsin's Backstab for a while!
I recall Brad making mention of this as well, Evoras. I like the idea of having Epics continue to evolve as the game progresses through expansions. This could make for truly Epic quests that take years and multiple expansions to obtain incremental improvements in those epic pieces of gear. This would maintain the relevance of epics throughout the life of the game, as well as provide lofty goals for those dedicated enough to pursue them.
Grymmlocke said:I recall Brad making mention of this as well, Evoras. I like the idea of having Epics continue to evolve as the game progresses through expansions. This could make for truly Epic quests that take years and multiple expansions to obtain incremental improvements in those epic pieces of gear. This would maintain the relevance of epics throughout the life of the game, as well as provide lofty goals for those dedicated enough to pursue them.
I like the idea of requiring the previous epic as well.
But I suppose if each or every second expansion introduces a new epic to keep it up to par with the new equipment level of the expansion, eventually it would become a very long chain of quests to complete, requiring many raid encounters and what not, which may just be a bit too much to ask for. Ofcourse some of the raid encounters for epic v1 may be groupable when epic v9 is released, but even then the requirements for the latest epic would not be "fair" to new players or players starting new characters (alts).
So what I am suggesting it to keep the epic chain to a maximum of maybe 3.
Grymmlocke: I recall Brad making mention of this as well, Evoras. I like the idea of having Epics continue to evolve as the game progresses through expansions.
Anyone have a link to this at all? I would like to read Brad's views.
BitCrunzh: So what I am suggesting it to keep the epic chain to a maximum of maybe 3.
I understand where you are coming from, my only concern with lower chains would be "perceived" as a waste of time this would be once the chain ended and a new one began. This would result in those quests only being undertaken if the XP was decent. I am not sure I would want to begin the chain if I knew it would end becoming no better than a "good" item in the expansions start zone.
Maybe there could be an incorporation of old epic items with new epic lines? Maybe players with old epics got a head start in the new quest line, whereas players starting the line fresh would need to do some leg work before getting to the same step? Like a kind of faction mechanic. So, if I presented my epic bow to a NPC, then he or she would be suitable impressed and direct me to the next significant part of the new quest line, whereas a new player would have to "earn" that step by performing certain qualifying steps. That way, even if the item is no longer a great bit of kit, it would still be worth the expense of achieving in the first place.
I would also like a version of the epic item(s) to be a display artifact in any housing/guild halls that become available.
chenzeme said: ... Do you think that epic viability and progression should be carried over to expansions or should each new area provide its own epic tales?
Personally, I think all gear/slots should progress in a manner that allows complete customization, and that should apply to epics as well. In fact, I would be happy if the epic quest reward was simply a slot augment that allowed for a much higher gear point cost so that slot/item could be upgraded & customized to a greater extent than usual. (and maybe an appearance augment) And I see no reason why there shouldn't be solo, heroic, and raid level quests for each/all slots in the same fashion, per class. That should be the baseline/starting point of player customization, not the end game.
Then you just extend that logic backwards down through all tiers/qualities and everyone is happy. :) " Tangible personal progresss through augmentation " it sounds like a slogan. heheh.
Further, expansions can then include things like Ability Arsenal effect modifications cap increases, along with gear point cost increases. From a designer perspective, your task is then to tweak one set of formulas, rather than having to generate dozens of thousands of new drops. Verrry attractive.
Lore-wise, using or harvesting the Environment to customize your character after gathering resources from said environments due to adventuring in them, well, that's a story that writes itself. ( " Enjoy a Lore-rich and deeply complex world where environmental storytelling is central. " from here. Similarly, from tenets: " An assertion that player vs. environment should involve more than NPCs -- Engage the World! "
I played an Iksar monk back in the EQ days, and iksars monks actually had a special epic "Shackle" quest line as an alternative/supplement to the normal "Whistling Fists" epic.
The special part about this was that it was actually a multi tier epic quest. You could start at low level, and progress it during your leveling, finally making a handin to Cazic Thule in PoF for the epic shackles. The effect didnt stack with the normal whistling fists, so it wasnt unballanced.
I think this resembles at least in parts the problems we address in this thread.
My thoughts behind the limited chain was actually something along the lines of, that you would have to complete the two prior epic quests to complete the latest. This ofcourse means changing the entry criteria for the first quest as new epic quest revisions are released.
For instance, epic v5 would require completing epic v3 to complete epic v4, which in turn you had to complete to start epic v5. However epic v3 would not require epic v2. When epic v6 then is released, epic v4 (or prior) would be the new entry level.
I don't think there is a problem with the continual upgrade of epics as content is expanded. I mean, it should be that epics stay relevant regardless of whether you upgrade them, but given that each epic should be super tough, there should be a narrower pool of people who get them at each step. I would assume if 100 people can manage to get Epic 1, and Epic 1 is required to get epic 2, it stands to reason that not 100 people will get epic 2, which is fine. It is also easy to justify enhancing them, where epic 1 is sharpened by a master to epic 2, and epic 2 is furthered enchanted to epic 3 and epic 3 is purified to epic 4, etc.
I think there will be some kind of progession and this progression will lead to an increase of the stats on the items and of the stats of the enemies as well. So sooner or later even the strongest epic of the release version will be outdated.
But crafted items could be improved when a new recipe is learned and alle the necessary mats for this recipe are gathered. Based on the old item a new one could be created.
Items of an epic quest chain could be improved by a new epic quest chain, where the original item is needed for the start of the chain.
Dropped items can not really be improved, but maybe at least their look could be preserved. If in a new raid a new epic items is dropped you could either use this item or use its power (stats of the item) and some extra ingredients to power up your old item. So the stats will be transferred, the new item will be destroyed and you have a mighty new item looking exactly like your old one.
Maybe some ultra rare items could even survive without beeing transformed in one way or another. They need to have special effects. Maybe some values with a percentage, that will keep its power even when the stats of the characters increase (e. g. + 10% HP). Or items with a cool effect, like helping you to speak a special language or looking special or increasing your (crafting) skill, etc.
And to think I worried that this might be a dumb question.
Lots of good ideas to keep epics of value and viable. This was the intent behind the question. My biggest concern is that old content becomes redundant when new content is released. As long as old content rewards and feeds seamlessly into new content, I will be happy. Leaving behind an epic is never a good feeling (or even profession quested equipment for that matter). I like the idea of buffs and effects that enhances whatever weapon or equipment being used. Balance might be a problem though.
BitCrunzh: I played an Iksar monk back in the EQ days, and iksars monks actually had a special epic "Shackle" quest line as an alternative/supplement to the normal "Whistling Fists" epic.
Following this line of thought, I know the work would be greater, but how about branching epics that result in different outcomes depending on choices made? This could be simple as a choice between weapon types; Crossbow or Long Bow, to way more complex that could tailor the effect/proc/damage type. I guess the only problem is with this is that you need some kind of guide to make sure that the end product is something you would want and dont end up with that "if only I had chosen the blue pill" feeling.
All this talk of longevity makes me wonder if epics will even be available in the game, or maybe they will stretch out the quests for the epics over a series of expansions. For some reason having an epic weapon at the start of the game almost seems.....silly....shortsighted...(hmm not sure what the word is that I'm lookiing for) when they have an arc of 10 years planned for the game. At least that is what i think i remember reading/hearing somewhere. It just doesn't somehow feel right that it would be something implemented from the start, but maybe a few years into it.
I agree that there should be a path to upgrade or replace an epic weapon as new expansions come out, and that the "old" epic should be required to start the quest line. A lot of effort goes into epics, not only from the individual but from their friends, guild, and others in the community. It would be sad for an epic to become obsolete simply because better gear was put in the game. I know it happens in most games, you race to get good gear, but then an expansion comes out and all that you did is basically useless and you get to start the whole thing over again. I for one hope they come up with different ways to deal with gear and spells and the like when it comes to expansions. In the end you don't seem to really gain anything, you are given the illusion of increased power against mobs, but they in turn have had their hitpoints increased by huge margins, and so that awesome spell you got that does 2k damage instead of 900 has about the same affect on the level 51 mob as your 900 damage spell had on a lvl 50. Anyway, yes to epics continuing to be useful :)
Amsai said: Simple really. Just add a new leg of the journey for epic quests. It will be up to the player to keep their epics updated. So no it won't always be the best weapon if you don't upgrade with the arrival of other new gear/levels.
I agree with you and yes, it is a simple solution, but I can’t honestly remember one mmo that an epic was valid or the questline enhanced when the game had a significant expansion. It has been almost like a throw away thing by developers, but I never considered them throw away.
With this question, I just wanted to raise the point that undertaking a long hard epic is a time consuming thing to players that should not be dismissed as irrelevant in any expansion. As this thread points out, there are lots of ways to ensure that this does not happen and I just felt that it that I needed to raised this now so that any epic created for Pantheon, could and should be continued through new chapters of the game.
I would like to see more than epic weapons. I would like to have epic weapons and even separate pieces of gear...perhaps even epic crafting items that help you......make other player classes and races epic quest items. This would promote social interaction amongst players.
I'm all for epic upgrades as expacs come out. I dont particularly like the idea of this being extended to all slots, or systems that allow you to "build" any items through customization. I think it's a valuable part of the game to evaluate gear drops, and make (sometimes difficult) sacrafices in one stat for an upgrade in others. Balancing the cost/benefit provides another facet to the game. And allowing people to hone gear to exactly what they want is just ripe for everyone eventually having the same setup. I'd rather see variety.
Seems to me allowing players to customize their epics or other equipment would allow for greater variety. More choice, more variety.
Having a fixed set of BIS gear makes everyone identical. Less choice, less variety.
EDIT:
There is also this to consider: (from here: http://pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/ )
Many of the people on these forums and anticipating this game are EQ fans. With that being said I will not be speaking from that perspective. What I have played that I would consider just as hardcore and oldschool as an mmo is FFXI (Final Fantasy 11). In FFXI the stats were definitely on the lower side, making for a game where +4 strength was significant enough to make or break you finding a group. There were a lot of items in the game that were useful for specific or situational purposes. An item would have lets say +4 dark damage which would be much better than even +10 INT when it came to doing damage with a dark spell.
Overall I feel as if they could make the game function in that degree. These epic weapons can have not only specific stats that I mentioned above but maybe even an extra ability (e.g Ocassionally hits twice) that would keep them as a popular item to obtain and keep or use within a guild. I do agree that I would rather not upgrade all my gear everytime a new raid comes out. Would become stale and predictable. And while I like the idea of class quests that are difficult and take time to obtain an item from, that would limit what they would be able to do in the future. FFXI had class quests for you to obtain a full set of gear for your class. It was called an AF set (Artifact armor) 5 pieces in total. When it came time for the "expansions" they just created an AF 2. Equally hard to get but seemed to remind me of what WoW did with their tier sets, which I believe you do not want.
- Idio
Idioteq said: ... And while I like the idea of class quests that are difficult and take time to obtain an item from, that would limit what they would be able to do in the future. ...
That would only be true if the items, slots, or gear cannot be temporary or permanently adjusted, enhanced, imbued, enchanted, blessed or augmented from the environment to create sets of situational gear.
Put another way, if the design goal is (as has been publicly stated) to have the player immersed in the environment, and use a wide selection of gear which varies based on the environment, you need (at least, as one solution) either one of two things.
A lot of gear. Which is fine, but places quite a burden on the poor VR designers.
OR
A way to temporary or permanently adjust, enhance, imbue, enchant, bless or augment a smaller selection of gear.
All items should, eventually, see an end to their usefullness by some mechanic or another. We should be desiring new things as time passes for to help keep our interest. It doesn't need to be whole sets of gear every expansion but as things progress I want new things for all my slots.