I wanted to discuss the rate at which mobs drob items/weapons.
To me its very important that killing mobs feels rewarding and delivers the feeling of actually accomplishing
something. Be it just to get to a certain area and clearing the way or killing certain mobs for a certain
drop of a weapon i want/need.
If you cant get any good weapon drops (or just any drop at all) after a good amount of mobs slain and all you
get are collectables for other purposes the game will probably slowly start to feel like a chore and also unrealistic.
The devs should find a good balance which doesnt make a weapon drop nothing special (e.g. Borderlands kind of
drop rates) but also reward the player from time to time.
What do you think about the weapon drop rate?
Should there be rarely any drops to worship the skill of a true crafter?
Should there be an average amount of drops adapted to the number of enemies in pantheon? (no BDO grinding haha)
Should players be given a lot of weapons which are in each way equally good and out of which they have to
choose wisely?
Should weapons mainly be obtained from quests or raids etc.?
If they keep static mobs with loot tables (Like EQ1/EQ2) I would hope that the rare drops are just that.. rare. I would expect them to be along the lines of 2-8%
There is lots of math out there to support the metrics and I'm sure it will all be tweaked in Beta. What I hope is that they have truly epic or unique items that only drop the first ~3 times a MoB is killed.
I hope that drop rates are absolutely horrible in terms of wearable things that are semi-decent off trash. I hope that named npc's have common, uncommons, and rares. I don't want to have it be a loot festival. I want every item to be special and to remember the moment I got it. Also, I don't want any no drop, soulbound, attunded, whatever you want to call it items until end game. I love the idea of passing it onto friends or my progeny.
I'll take these in pieces, and respond to each of your questions in turn.
What do you think about the weapon drop rate?
I think these should be less frequent than many other "regular" drops (Regular drops meaning: vendor items, crafting materials, low-tier "Gray" or "White" gear). Most of the uncommon or rare types of weapons should be gotten from named mobs. If you don't get a drop every couple of levels, I have no qualms with crafters being able to make decent (Note: not "best", but decent for the level) weapons by using crafting materials dropped by mobs.
Should there be rarely any drops to worship the skill of a true crafter?
There should be good drops, but having a crafter should never hurt. There needs to be an economy in the game, and I would like to see crafting materials and crafted items (Armor, weapons, consumables) make up a large part of that. Consequently, I would like to see most regular mob drops be that of crafting materials.
Should there be an average amount of drops adapted to the number of enemies in pantheon? (no BDO grinding haha)
I played Black Desert from launch for about 3 months (Calpheon Imperial Syndicate - Taliesin). I would rather not see ridiculously low rates such as those on the "Witch's Earrings" and other such items from regular mobs. Quite frankly, those never should have been on normal mobs, but should have had a respectable drop rate from named mobs and scroll bosses. Should there be grinding involved? Yes, most certainly. It is that uncertainty that causes (at least for myself) anticipation, then disappointment when the item I'm after doesn't drop, and then elation when I do finally get it.
Should players be given a lot of weapons which are in each way equally good and out of which they have to choose wisely?
I would like to see many different options (or "Side-grades") per tier or level. Being able to choose optimal stats that are tailored to the class, or to use unconventional builds just based on the variety of weapons, armor, and other available items is something I enjoy. Trying to find those unconventional builds would be neigh impossible without a wide variety of items. Take for instance Final Fantasy 14. I love the game to death, but my gripe is that there is very rarely more than one or two options in terms of gear. Not only that, but the secondary stats on most gear are irrelevant, which only serves to exacerbate the issue. There's no choice, not even the illusion of choice. I would prefer Pantheon give me a meaningful choice in the way in which I gear my character.
Should weapons mainly be obtained from quests or raids etc.?
Primarily? Maybe. Dungeons, overworld names, crafted, raids, quested. These 5 sources should all be able to award things.
Depends on how common or how valuable a drop.
Common Material drops shouldnt be something that drops everytime you kill a mob but you should get a drop from at least 1 in every 4 kills.
Common item and weapon drops should be more like 30% drop rate
And it should ramp up to where the most rare and sought after gear should be more like a 10% drop rate.
Im not really sure where to put rare material drops, because they should have a lower drop rate. But then I dont know how crafting will work and if crafting will be 100% or will it have percentage of failure and loss of items and such? So there is a bit more to it than just the drop rate of the item.
Great post, I bet some interesting discussions will pop up.
Should we be able to visualize an item's rarity? I have to admit, I don't mind the rarity color schemes of Diablo, WoW, etc. Should the game tell us our item is rare, or should we uncover that naturally through observing what other players have?
@Syntro
No colors or item levels is my vote. Let us figure that out for ourselves. Bring on the theory crafting. Not always popular as some think they should have access to all knowledge, but I dont. I dont think we should know the exact formula for damage just like I dont think we should know exactly how much better this item is over another. Now we should be able to look at it and basically know if something is good or bad or not meant for your class. So understand that I dont mean we are so lost we cant tell a good piece from a bad. But knowing that 6% haste is marginally better than 25% crit chance is not necessary. This adds to the metagame and allows for choices in play style.
nefi said:I wanted to discuss the rate at which mobs drob items/weapons.
To me its very important that killing mobs feels rewarding and delivers the feeling of actually accomplishing
something. Be it just to get to a certain area and clearing the way or killing certain mobs for a certain
drop of a weapon i want/need.
If you cant get any good weapon drops (or just any drop at all) after a good amount of mobs slain and all you
get are collectables for other purposes the game will probably slowly start to feel like a chore and also unrealistic.
The devs should find a good balance which doesnt make a weapon drop nothing special (e.g. Borderlands kind of
drop rates) but also reward the player from time to time.
a)What do you think about the weapon drop rate?
b)Should there be rarely any drops to worship the skill of a true crafter?
c)Should there be an average amount of drops adapted to the number of enemies in pantheon? (no BDO grinding haha)
d)Should players be given a lot of weapons which are in each way equally good and out of which they have to
choose wisely?
e)Should weapons mainly be obtained from quests or raids etc.?
Time is the only commodity that matters, in MMO's, in my opinion. The rest are just values in fields in tables in a database.
As such, my opinion on loot in general is that unless you're going to tie it in with a larger/deeper/grander mechanic, you might as well just have static drops.
Now, do I think Pantheon should have a grander mechanic? Sure, it's a great opportunity to innovate. If done correctly, you can permit a player to customize their gear, slots, stats, resists, and Ability Arsenal. Everything that helps that character perform their role could be customized.
So, that's the idea. The implementation? Here goes, after the answers to the posed questions above:
a) I don't think usable weapons should drop. (explanation below)
b) Not sure what you mean, but if you mean should resources from slain targets be usable by a crafter? Sure. (explanation below)
c) Again, not sure what this question means, but if you mean should most creatures drop resources? Yep. (explanation below)
d) Rather than give, I think restore, craft, agument, modify or customize are better verbs. (explanation below)
e) Nah. But, special resources? Definitely. (explanation below)
---
I know the forum rules are "don't write a novel" so I'm going to write a short synopsis, then elaborate at length.
Each player in Pantheon should be able to, by using the resources from slain enemies, utilize those resources to completely customize their character.
And when I say that, I don't mean just picking from 1 or 2 items that are shared with 3 or 4 other classes, per 10 levels. I mean actual and complete customization of every number shown that affects their role.
So, thus far, they've shown a few things. 8 stats (str,sta,agi,dex,con,wis,int,cha) and ~20 equipment slots (2x earring, shoulder, head, face, neck, 2x arm, back belt, 2x wrist, hands, pants, 2x ring, boots, mainhand, offhand, ranged, ammo, and sigil.) plus whatever skills and spells go into the Ability Arsenal, and finally each class has an Iconic Ability.
From that, you can work out how many drops you'd need to create, per level, for each class, to have some variety. Even if there were just three sets per level per class, with 50 levels, and 12 classes, and 20 slots, that's 12 x 20 x 50 x 3 (36,000) items. And that's setting aside varying visual styles by region/zone, power/tiers, and other forms of variety. That's just three basic sets, maybe one for each style of role, like a DPS set for rogues, an avoidance set, and a utility set. Or a CC set for shamans, plus one for healing, and one for damage/buffs. Also, this doesn't take into account anything new, yet, in the form of colored mana or the environmental effects they've shown, or resists, or comparisons between NPC purchased/storebought, crafted, solo-able, group-drops, and raid drops, all of which would be different.
Now you could say.. well you don't need to make so many, you could just make one for each type of armor. Sure, that's an option, but it's a poor one. It leaves the players lacking in customization options and produces competition, rather than co-operation. Which, you know, if that's a design goal, then maybe that's what they'll do? Who knows.
Personally, I would rather avoid the inevitable problems associated with displeasing everyone via itemization and let them do it themselves. With appropriate caps and item costs. If you are wondering what item cost is all about, here's a reference that describes it in some detail in another gaming system.
The short version of what's involved is, take any item, any spell, any ability; adding effects, of any kind, imposes a point cost. The tier of the item sets the cap on the point cost, regardless of what the effects are. As a simple example: say a tier1 (green) item has a point cap of 10. A +1 stat costs 5, a +5% resist costs 2, and +AC costs 1 per point. That item could then have +1 STR, +5% poison resist, and 3 AC. A tier2 item may have a point cap of 15, allowing for greater effects or greater variety. There can also be increasing point costs as single effects get larger. Using negatives can permit greater bonuses. Such things like you could have -1 INT, +2 STR and it would only cost 1 point, overall. There's a few different implementation options depending on the emergent behavior you want to encourage or discourage.
Now, in my opinion, what drops from creatures should only be resources used to make those adjustments and enhancements. You could call them augments, or resources, and require refining, repairing, or salvaging to obtain usable widgets that can then be used to make temporary and permanent adjustments to gear, slots, stats, resists, and everything in each Ability Arsenal per class. So that means what you get in the field isn't usable. You can't get it and equip it immediately. In some cases, though, you could temporarily augment in the field. Also, everything that comes from creatures has very little or no value to NPC's.
Again, a simple example. All weapons and armor you get from creatures are Broken. In order to sell or use them as gear, you need to either salvage them into raw materials that have value for crafting, repair them so they're not longer broken, or distill them into augments.
Augments can be used to provide temporary or permanent effects. If you distill the gear, you get an augment that is created based on the region you distilled it in. You can consume that augment and it provides a slot buff for several hours or days, depending on balance considerations. If you collect enough augments, you can combine them into a more powerful version which imbues a permanent effect on a slot or piece of gear.
Additionally, you can tie this into gear appearance such that the base of a piece of gear is simply an appearance augment that you get as a quest reward or from creatures. It has no value and can't be sold, but it permits players to show off that they've killed a powerful creature by taking that unique appearance and applying it to a slot.
Optionally, you could have effects tied to slots rather than items, and arranged in profiles, with gear skins salvaged from broken rare drops. This would allow players the ultimate in customization.
Regarding the Ability Arsenal, you could have augments adjust each aspect of each entry in the Ability Arsenal, via those augment profiles by slot. So, you have the opportunity to sacrifice/combine or give up certain stats, resists, and so on if you wanted to build a profile that focused on customizing your Ability Arsenal, either exclusively or to whatever degree the player desired.
The advantage gained from such a system for content creation is that if you permit the player greater specialization and customization, then they can dynamically react to a wider range of Environmental Effects or unique and challenging encounters. Of course, adding additional profiles could be done via class quests or simply granted every so many levels.
Optionally, augment profiles could be combined or separated by gear, slots, and/or Ability Arsenal, again, depending on design goals.
The important thing is that if you set the caps appropriately by tier, you are permitting the player to perform the same task that consumes a large amount of designer time. With a system like this, the player is the designer. And once again, unless VR is planning on a system with something like the depth and innovation of what I'm describing? There's no point. Might as well just go static, waste the opportunity, and repeat history. :)
nefi said:I wanted to discuss the rate at which mobs drob items/weapons.
To me its very important that killing mobs feels rewarding and delivers the feeling of actually accomplishing
something. Be it just to get to a certain area and clearing the way or killing certain mobs for a certain
drop of a weapon i want/need.
Sorry, but I have to stop you right there. Do you really mean to say that only by NPCs dropping stuff consistently, routinely or even every time, do you get a sense of accomplishment?
nefi said:
If you cant get any good weapon drops (or just any drop at all) after a good amount of mobs slain and all you
get are collectables for other purposes the game will probably slowly start to feel like a chore and also unrealistic.
The devs should find a good balance which doesnt make a weapon drop nothing special (e.g. Borderlands kind of
drop rates) but also reward the player from time to time.
I'm really curious as to how you define the underlined part and also why you think your definition would be good for the longterm health of the game.
nefi said:
What do you think about the weapon drop rate?
Should there be rarely any drops to worship the skill of a true crafter?
Should there be an average amount of drops adapted to the number of enemies in pantheon? (no BDO grinding haha)
Should players be given a lot of weapons which are in each way equally good and out of which they have to
choose wisely?
Should weapons mainly be obtained from quests or raids etc.?
Answers for the rest:
Spectrum going from very rare to common, but even common should never be above 10% chance. They key thing to know, however, is that your chances are never cumulative. Previous results do not affect any future outcomes. So yes, even with a 10% chance of something to drop you could kill something a thousands times and still not see the drop.
Sure. I don't mind drops for crafters. Why not.
No. That is a horrible mechanic. Drop rates are only applicable to loot table for the NPC standing in front of you.
Again, you ask questions with vague concepts like "a lot" with nothing else to go on. If, however, you mean that for a given level range there exist across the entirety of the game world at least 1 example of each weapon type (1hs, 2hs, 1hb, 2hb, 1hp, 2hp) which are statistically equivalent yet also having an environment in which that weapon is demonstrated to be superior, then you're in luck because it is already known that we will need mulitple sets of gear which we will need to switch out depending upon the situation in which we find ourselves.
From any thing so long as it makes sense for that thing to be dropping such an item.
It's a great topic, drop rates and loot tables are delicate and important components of MMOs.
My "feel" on appropriate drop rates for a given regular mobs is roughly:
- Rare crafting material : 2 to 5%
- Standard equipment piece: 5 to 10%
- Consumable: 5 to 10%
- Uncommon crafting material: 5 to 10%
- Common crafting material: 15 to 30%
- Ammunition (on ranged mobs): 25 to 50%
I'm also a big fan of named mobs who may spawn randomly in place of a regular mob of the same type. They're often much stronger than their peers but can drop a special piece of equipment that may have interesting stats for some players. It gives a good reason to come back to an area at a later level, to hunt that thing and obtain the object for a friend, alt, or sell it to the highest bidder.
I think quests should give straight cash and consummables mostly (not mentionning all the intangibles, faction cred, new contacts, location unlocks, etc). If a quest gives a piece of gear, it should be because the piece of gear is relevant in the quest itself. Raids traditionnally offer incredible equipment difficult to obtain in other ways, and I think this has great player appeal and should stay.
In EQ, I remember having empty slots well in to my teens or 20s. I hope the drop rate is LOW and when you see a piece of gear drop, you actually get an adrenaline rush. That is what made EQ great to me, was how scarce the resources were made the demand high. When something dropped, it was an memorable experience as opposed to "oh look, another grey piece of vendor trash gear". I hope they dont use the item ranking nonsense (grey, green, blue, orange, red, purple) that WoW/EQ2 had.
Could not agree more with a lot of you, loot should be harder to get than easier. Especially "rare" since the name indicates you should not often see these items in the world.
Now I feel if you are on a quest and you need a simple item, there should be no need to have to camp for weeks to obtain it. If it is meant to be a hard part of the quest line, then absolutely, make it hard to get.
To me it falls in line with the overall game play anyway, longer leveling, perception quests (not hand holding), mobs you can't steamroll, no rediculous fast travel, etc... it makes sense to have loot that falls in line with this type of game.
*one of the things that drove me crazy with games like WoW is that you could stand in a spot and see the named mob you need spawn over and over again like clock work. So this means that the quests were as meaningful as just getting around and solving question marks.
I want a system like VG, where dropped and quested gear was rare, and crafters were actually able to sell tons of standard blue/yellow crafted gear to people, PLUS the rare and valuable orange rare/ultra rare material crafted gear as well. I definitely do NOT want a system like many MMOs, where gear rains down from kills and quests and there is no reason to craft or have a market for crafted goods. Quests and dropped stuff should be great but should be rare specific pieces...or a system where, if you want a set of bronze armor, you have to farm a zone for days to get a piece or two :)
i honestly hope that anytime you fight something you get something from it may it be some tooths or ears if its an animal and that animal can be foraged for fure or leather scraps. or if humanoid, you get some armor scraps may it be cloth, or metal or link or copper. even broken swords or shields where the item could be salvaged for future pieces of anything.
of course it would depend on what your hunting if your hunting giants well the pieces of armor would be a bit big comparing to a regular humanoid so i'd like to see it dropped but you cant take it unless you are extremly strong of have some sort of cart where you can put the stuff in it...
now if you do have a cart and you are doing the salvaging of your kills then that should be dangerous as well there should be some time before it gets too dangerous to stay and move on? a carcass always attracts attention no?
Amsai said:@Syntro
No colors or item levels is my vote. Let us figure that out for ourselves. Bring on the theory crafting. Not always popular as some think they should have access to all knowledge, but I dont. I dont think we should know the exact formula for damage just like I dont think we should know exactly how much better this item is over another. Now we should be able to look at it and basically know if something is good or bad or not meant for your class. So understand that I dont mean we are so lost we cant tell a good piece from a bad. But knowing that 6% haste is marginally better than 25% crit chance is not necessary. This adds to the metagame and allows for choices in play style.
My big thing is I would like drops to be LOGICAL.
For example, there's an old joke comic of the Barrens from WoW with all the zebras having no feet, raptors having no teeth, and plains striders having no beaks - a joke about an old quest that asked you to get four hooves, some raptor teeth, and some of the bird beaks and that the drop rates were so low that it was as if none of these animals had those parts. Raptors should ALWAYS have teeth, for example. They might be missing a few, but they should never NOT have any.
Likewise, though, a wild boar shouldn't be carrying a battleaxe. You could argue the rare axe STUCK INTO ITS HIDE from some random Orc Warrior the boar mauled might make sense, but that should be pretty ridiculously rare. On the other hand, all boars should have tusks, though many might be broken.
Again, logic.
...that said...I do like the way that some old games had rare, NON soulbinding gear. Vanilla WoW, for example, had some pretty famous zone or world drops (pets, weapons, capes, etc) with some fantastically low drop rates so that people that got them could sell them for a mint or simply use these semi-legendary items. There's something cool about that. So that wild, grizzled, rare spawn boar with a powerful dagger stuck in its flanks from some epic battle with an ill fated Rogue years ago makes sense and can be cool. But wild animals should generally not be traveling salesmen of weapons and armors.
Conversely, Humanoid players should have a chance to drop any of the gear they're wearing. Meaning, for example, if you find a set of bandits with gear you like, you could farm it from them to get yourself a full set for RP purposes or simply wearing because it's decent. Now, granted, in a fight, gear is going to get broken, so there won't be a 100% drop rate since some of those pieces will have been broken (you know, using matic fire against someone may not be the BEST way to secure those fancy pants of his after all...), but at least it makes sense. On the other hand, they shouldn't be dropping gear that they weren't equipped with. You could argue maybe they were carrying it in their backpacks, but a dagger wielding bandit rogue shouldn't drop a set of plate gear with a polearm. :)
.
Anyway, there are give and takes because of the nature of games, and again, those rare legendary items (maybe that rogue bandit had an epic magical ring but was too stupid to realize it and so just kept it in his pouch thinking it was just "expensive looking" and he could sell it later?) DO make sense to drop (heck, maybe even the BOAR ate said legendary ring, and you found it when rooting around in its...innards...? I mean, if you're into that sort of thing...) But it would be cool to be able to farm gear sets ala Oblivion from enemies that actually WEAR them, and it would be nice to go out and get "eye of neut" from...well...killing neuts. Whatever a neut is.
Just my two copper.
.
EDIT:
Syntro said:Great post, I bet some interesting discussions will pop up.
Should we be able to visualize an item's rarity? I have to admit, I don't mind the rarity color schemes of Diablo, WoW, etc. Should the game tell us our item is rare, or should we uncover that naturally through observing what other players have?
Not having the established colour scheme would really bring an aspect of having to find out about the weapon yourself and reduce the "hand-holding" thing a lot of todays games have.
Maybe the game could also hold back on some (or all?) of the information about a weapon you find and keep adding those while you fight with it or reveal all of its information by using affinity/identify spells Renathras mentioned.
Put me down as one that would be glad to see no item "rarity" colors (white, green, blue, etc) and no gear score type numbers. I'd rather people look at the stats and effects of an item, use it, and figure out what is best for ourselves rather than just assuming "I have a blue so get rid of the green".
I like some of the ideas here, but the key point for me is that all gear of a magical sort should be quite rare. That way each and every piece becomes something you remember obtaining. Something with a story behind it.
I'd almost go so far as to say that any piece of real value has to have some kind of quest/gathering element behind it. Mobs don't just drop magical items. Instead they drop pieces that can be gathered to eventually construct your own magical artifact. And discovering the keys to those combinations could be part of the journey.
Obtaining a full set of gear should be a character's lifetime journey much like leveling and obtaining spells and abilities is.
I'm in full agreement with others that usable gear upgrades should be a really rare drop rate from your common nameless mob. 2% seems reasonable to high to me. 1% or lower seems fine to me, considering a group is likely to kill 100 mobs an hour, and a random drop at that point becomes both worthwhile and exciting, while not making it something people take for granted.
It also seems like a drop rate any higher, or drop of mundane relatively useless gear just clutters people's bags, encumbers them, and most of it gets dropped on the ground or destroyed anyway. A group established in a dungeon isnt going to retain a bunch of junk at the expense of running off to a merchant
This is not to say you cant have worthwhile loot. Gems, coin, crafting components, etc, can all contribute to a lucrative experience without providing the Monty Haul of gear upgrades. I'd prefer these kinds of things are commonly low weight and stackable, purely from an inventory management perspective.
I think the devs should use skyshrine and kael armor as a template for most zones having quest armor drops with similar droprates. As you spend a long time in a zone, you should slowly aquire a full armor set from trash. Wearing this armor can make you stand out, 'oh wow look at that guy he looks to have alot of experience in X zone..". The armor can also give special benefits, like armor from the fire zone will make you survive attacks better in the ice zone.. or a zone might have armor with clickable abilities like cobalt armor from Karnors Castle.
So.. give us zonewide armor sets with low droprates(questable or pure drops depending on the zone difficulty), and also give us named with high droprates for specific items. Named should be rare to spawn, but not rare to drop loot... thats teh most annoying thing ever, to kill a named and get nothing.