muscoby said:Aarpoch said:muscoby said:I don't believe it has been adequately answered as to "WHY" there should be guild-achievement designed content.
While i respect your opinion of not wanting this in game I don't get why anybody should have to "adequately answer WHY" they want something. Because they might find it fun?
I never meant to cause offense. The original poster had asked the question "WHY NOT" It was the basis of discussion. Perhaps it is my educational background and life experience coming through but it is certainly an odd form of discussion to posit "WHY NOT" without establishing a "WHY."
Ah, i get that. No worries man. Sometimes I think we all get a bit..passionate about things around here and it looks like I did that time. Well I guess defensive would be a better word. Rock on!!
I'd love to see some sort of guild achievement system. I'm not talking about silly little things like kill 100 skeletons in a given time frame but major epic wide guilds that might bestow a buff on all guild members for a week or something. Maybe 75% of the guild would need to complete a long quest that takes a lot of co-operation between players so that guilds can group up and complete the quest. Something like the Velious shawl quest line. If enough people in the guild completed then the guild as a whole would receive some temporary reward as well as the player completing the quest getting the quest rewards.
Pantheon is meant to be a highly social game and anything that promotes people playing together is a good idea if you ask me. The idea above is just something that came to mind straight away. With a bit of thought it could be fleshed out into a more comprehensive set of ideas.
I think guilds are the things that are going to make this game really worth playing. Meeting new people and making friends is what excites me the most about Pantheon :).
I think Guild goals as intended here means an accomplishment unique to the guild. Not so much " we have killed the dragon!" as all guilds will eventually take a stab at kiling the dragon. But I see this as more like- guild banners? or optional/toggleable armor markings for the guild?.
I can see that as a something, once guild is formed they have a task, as a guild, to get a guild emblem- I am not sure how this would be designed or established- that can then be used(toggleable) on armor or as a rally flag/banner. guild goes ona raid, everyone is showing the guild colors kind of thing.
But beyond that i dont see it as anything more than norma in game accomplishments based on the events/raisd available in game. Oh sure, there will be server firsts, but that's about it. as I see it.
Manouk said:I think Guild goals as intended here means an accomplishment unique to the guild. Not so much " we have killed the dragon!" as all guilds will eventually take a stab at kiling the dragon. But I see this as more like- guild banners? or optional/toggleable armor markings for the guild?.
I can see that as a something, once guild is formed they have a task, as a guild, to get a guild emblem- I am not sure how this would be designed or established- that can then be used(toggleable) on armor or as a rally flag/banner. guild goes ona raid, everyone is showing the guild colors kind of thing.
But beyond that i dont see it as anything more than norma in game accomplishments based on the events/raisd available in game. Oh sure, there will be server firsts, but that's about it. as I see it.
It could be so much more than that though. Having a guild working together to accomplish something that they normally wouldn't work towards is something that could add a lot of depth to the game for people who normally only solo / group and raid. I levelled up in EQ the first time round without completing many quests at all. If there was some kind of guild reward for doing tasks like that I would have been so much more motivated to complete quests and stuff. I used to love playing with guild members and helping them out. If the guild got some reward for doing that I can only see that as a good thing.
shihiro said:@Searril: Why not? You really can't have a discussion with one worded responses. Why are you directly opposed to the idea for a guild achievement system? Is it because another game has done it (poorly or otherwise)? Is it because the implementation would be difficult?
I gave only a one word answer because it was my way of "casting my vote" to the devs who are reading this without bothering them with too much reminiscing. But since you asked, I will tell you why. This will be long-winded:
I know that some will disagree (and that's ok), but to me the absolute apex of what an MMO should be was during the POP expansion in Everquest. I was in a mid-upper tier raiding guild on the server. We were never world first anything and we had no problem with it. But we were always solidly in that group of the next 5ish that were working on the current content.
In case you didn't play then, in brief, the POP expansion was all about different planes that were different tiers. The low tier ones you could get into just by virtue of being the correct level. Other than level it required nothing else for access, but some mid-tier ones required you to earn access. There were two major steps you had to get through to advance. The first was you had to complete certain raids to unlock the elemental planes. After you had the elemental planes unlocked, each one had a large raid encounter that you had to complete in order to unlock the final, highest tier zone, the Plane of Time.
I remember when we first started raiding in POP the thought of just getting into the elementals seemed so daunting. These mobs hit hard. I mean hard. Even the trash. But over the time of working it, wiping, rezzing, again, and again, and again, we finally managed to get down the final boss needed to unlock the elementals. It was a euphoric feeling and we heard a lot of congratulations from others on the server because even though we were absolutely not the first, it was still a sign of a group of people who were willing to eat all the frustration and death required to learn it and get there.
Now, throughout this whole time, the Plane of Tranquility was my favorite zone to just sit in while waiting for raids to start or friends to log in or whatever. PoT was a non-combat zone. It was basically just an island that held all the portals to the other planes, a few vendors, and a few quest NPCs. The portal to the Plane of Time was at the far end of the island, and I would ocassionally run up to it just to look at it. And for months we fought on. But in all that time I never actually stood on the Plane of Time portal. I know it may sound silly, but to me it was sort of a respect thing. I didn't feel like I had earned the right to stand on it and was not going to do so until I had earned my key into the zone and could use it.
Finally the time came when we had defeated all 4 elemental planes and had our Time keys. It was the pinnacle of achievement that I have ever felt in an MMO. Nothing else has ever come even remotely close to that feeling. And I knew I had put in the time, felt the frustration, had all the feelings of defeat that made finally getting that key feel truly elated. Of course we went on to clear the Plane of Time (eventually), in effect "finishing" the expansion.
So why do I not want guild perks and levels? Because there's nothing a guild can do short of being willing, as a group, to go through the constant pain of slamming your head into a wall over, and over, and over, and over, and over again and then finally breaking through that can ever be a real accomplishment. As someone earlier said, it is no accomplishment to do a small thing 1000 times. It is an accomplishment to do a great thing once. And if your guild is known on the server as one that had the endurance to fight the whole way through that is all the perk you need when you wear that tag.
1) I fully agree with what Searil said... and I was in the same situation, EQ/PoP, and later in WoW raiding.
2) There's another aspect of this question that no one discussed so far. From the software development side, it would be another feature creep. "Creep" as in constantly adding new requirements. The dev team needs to be able to finish and release a game with a... certain basic set of features, and if non-essential stuff is added, it becomes another Duke Nukem For Never. A game that's never released, or if it finally is, it's a mishmash of piled-up features without a coherent structure.
Raid achievements, as well as epic quests, are quite enough of an achievement as it is.
If the devs try to add anything else, it will either be insignificant, or if they really think of a significant addition to the game, it would affect the schedule. Thus, at this time only really needed stuff should be added. As the achievemnt aspect is already covered through raiding and hard quests, I don't think there's a pressing need for additional work in the same area.
Searril said:I know that some will disagree (and that's ok), but to me the absolute apex of what an MMO should be was during the POP expansion in Everquest. I was in a mid-upper tier raiding guild on the server. We were never world first anything and we had no problem with it. But we were always solidly in that group of the next 5ish that were working on the current content.
In case you didn't play then, in brief, the POP expansion was all about different planes that were different tiers. The low tier ones you could get into just by virtue of being the correct level. Other than level it required nothing else for access, but some mid-tier ones required you to earn access. There were two major steps you had to get through to advance. The first was you had to complete certain raids to unlock the elemental planes. After you had the elemental planes unlocked, each one had a large raid encounter that you had to complete in order to unlock the final, highest tier zone, the Plane of Time.
I remember when we first started raiding in POP the thought of just getting into the elementals seemed so daunting. These mobs hit hard. I mean hard. Even the trash. But over the time of working it, wiping, rezzing, again, and again, and again, we finally managed to get down the final boss needed to unlock the elementals. It was a euphoric feeling and we heard a lot of congratulations from others on the server because even though we were absolutely not the first, it was still a sign of a group of people who were willing to eat all the frustration and death required to learn it and get there.
Now, throughout this whole time, the Plane of Tranquility was my favorite zone to just sit in while waiting for raids to start or friends to log in or whatever. PoT was a non-combat zone. It was basically just an island that held all the portals to the other planes, a few vendors, and a few quest NPCs. The portal to the Plane of Time was at the far end of the island, and I would ocassionally run up to it just to look at it. And for months we fought on. But in all that time I never actually stood on the Plane of Time portal. I know it may sound silly, but to me it was sort of a respect thing. I didn't feel like I had earned the right to stand on it and was not going to do so until I had earned my key into the zone and could use it.
Finally the time came when we had defeated all 4 elemental planes and had our Time keys. It was the pinnacle of achievement that I have ever felt in an MMO. Nothing else has ever come even remotely close to that feeling. And I knew I had put in the time, felt the frustration, had all the feelings of defeat that made finally getting that key feel truly elated. Of course we went on to clear the Plane of Time (eventually), in effect "finishing" the expansion.
So why do I not want guild perks and levels? Because there's nothing a guild can do short of being willing, as a group, to go through the constant pain of slamming your head into a wall over, and over, and over, and over, and over again and then finally breaking through that can ever be a real accomplishment. As someone earlier said, it is no accomplishment to do a small thing 1000 times. It is an accomplishment to do a great thing once. And if your guild is known on the server as one that had the endurance to fight the whole way through that is all the perk you need when you wear that tag.
The only thing I would change about this post is referencing ToV or VP instead of PoT. PoP was the beginning of the end for me and most of my friends.
So then its a given that a raid is a guild effort? And therefore a guild achivement? I mean it can be both that and a raid group achievement. But beating a raid encounter strictly speaking isnt a guild achivement. What if a bunch of small guilds get together? I guess my point is while I do see where you guys are coming from on some things. I dont think raiding should be the pennicle of guild efforts. Maybe the pinnacle of large scale PvE encounters though.
How about tie it to crafting. You can be a guild of vagabonds. Or you can do crafting together with your guild to build guild housing, shops, emblems, banners. And this could be something only available to guilds. There wouldnt need to be a special system implemented aside basically having crafting. No points or ranks or levels. But it could be a social achievement, and provide nice things for your guild that emphasize unity, loyalty and guild pride. You could start off small with emblems and stuff. Then as the man power/skill becomes available start something like an epic quest for building your guild housing. Make it take a year or 2 to finish.
Maybe Im on the wrong track. But I thought this to be more guild centric as the achievements are more directly for the guild and are a bit more natural than ranks and levels. Of course guild housing is coming sometime after launch so it wouldnt be a launch feature. But maybe something along these lines. Or not?
Maximis said:Searril said:I know that some will disagree (and that's ok), but to me the absolute apex of what an MMO should be was during the POP expansion in Everquest. I was in a mid-upper tier raiding guild on the server. We were never world first anything and we had no problem with it. But we were always solidly in that group of the next 5ish that were working on the current content.
In case you didn't play then, in brief, the POP expansion was all about different planes that were different tiers. The low tier ones you could get into just by virtue of being the correct level. Other than level it required nothing else for access, but some mid-tier ones required you to earn access. There were two major steps you had to get through to advance. The first was you had to complete certain raids to unlock the elemental planes. After you had the elemental planes unlocked, each one had a large raid encounter that you had to complete in order to unlock the final, highest tier zone, the Plane of Time.
I remember when we first started raiding in POP the thought of just getting into the elementals seemed so daunting. These mobs hit hard. I mean hard. Even the trash. But over the time of working it, wiping, rezzing, again, and again, and again, we finally managed to get down the final boss needed to unlock the elementals. It was a euphoric feeling and we heard a lot of congratulations from others on the server because even though we were absolutely not the first, it was still a sign of a group of people who were willing to eat all the frustration and death required to learn it and get there.
Now, throughout this whole time, the Plane of Tranquility was my favorite zone to just sit in while waiting for raids to start or friends to log in or whatever. PoT was a non-combat zone. It was basically just an island that held all the portals to the other planes, a few vendors, and a few quest NPCs. The portal to the Plane of Time was at the far end of the island, and I would ocassionally run up to it just to look at it. And for months we fought on. But in all that time I never actually stood on the Plane of Time portal. I know it may sound silly, but to me it was sort of a respect thing. I didn't feel like I had earned the right to stand on it and was not going to do so until I had earned my key into the zone and could use it.
Finally the time came when we had defeated all 4 elemental planes and had our Time keys. It was the pinnacle of achievement that I have ever felt in an MMO. Nothing else has ever come even remotely close to that feeling. And I knew I had put in the time, felt the frustration, had all the feelings of defeat that made finally getting that key feel truly elated. Of course we went on to clear the Plane of Time (eventually), in effect "finishing" the expansion.
So why do I not want guild perks and levels? Because there's nothing a guild can do short of being willing, as a group, to go through the constant pain of slamming your head into a wall over, and over, and over, and over, and over again and then finally breaking through that can ever be a real accomplishment. As someone earlier said, it is no accomplishment to do a small thing 1000 times. It is an accomplishment to do a great thing once. And if your guild is known on the server as one that had the endurance to fight the whole way through that is all the perk you need when you wear that tag.
The only thing I would change about this post is referencing ToV or VP instead of PoT. PoP was the beginning of the end for me and most of my friends.
And that's fair, and I can totally get that.
For some people, it was Luclin and finishing Vex Thal. I know a lot of people hated VT, mostly because of the insane amount of hit points the mobs had there. But I liked it.
I guess I just love the feeling of having all your people with you and forcing your way through a zone and conquering it; to be able to say these are the people I go to war with and we did this thing together. And it was a thing that required stamina and endurance (real life traits, not game stats) to keep pushing and trying and persevering until we finally made it and could say we took it on and we succeeded. I've had feelings similar to that in other games, just not to the extent of finally hitting Time.
But that's ok. You can only have your top gaming moment once, right? I honestly don't expect Pantheon to ever give me the same feelings I had in EQ. It's not possible, if nothing else then simply because I'm not new to how this works anymore. Yes, mechanics and graphics change, but I don't expect to ever feel just hopelessly lost and then have things finally click and "get it" like I did all those years ago. Like I said, that's ok.
I don't need a new Vex Thal or Plane of Time or Temple of Veeshan or whatever. Those things hold special places in my memory and I know I can never go back. But I'm ready for a new world with some unexplored territory. And I want it to be a world that is hard to survive in and so it forces this rag-tag group of people from all different backgrounds and affiliations to come together and say we can't do this alone, but if we are willing to work together, to forgo some of the self to bolster the group, we can defeat it together. Eventually. And that is how I define a guild achievement, to be known by who wears the tag and what you do.
