First of all, i'm sorry if i'm making redondances with others posts or topics in the forum.
I know my post could sound a bit naive, and i know devs are already working hard to implement these kinds of ideas.
We all agree that if we want an immersive and social world, we need interactions between all characters in terminus (including npc and players of course). We agree that games and mmorpg today in general, are simpler and easier than before because players don't want to make concessions anymore (fast travel, AH, death etc..). And i guess we agree that mmorpg didn't need to be saved at the start, but just need to evolved a bit to be more practical because with our real life we can't camp in front of a spawn point during 2 or 3 days.
I won't talk about combat here, it's another part of the discussion on immersion and social, i'll try to talk about logical and pleasing world elements that should be balance of course with experience in another games or "elsewhere".
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I see and I saw in many posts or shows like Voices of Terminus (by the way, congrats guys you make an excellent work, VoT for the win !) topics about mechanics like banking, trading, etc..
My thoughts, before to go further in these mechanics, were that we have good example of how it works in our history or in little towns on our planet (not in our modern city).
I'm not talking about a realistic vision because realism in mmo could feel "boring", i'm talking more about how logical the exchange between people should be and becomes more social, immersive, natural and in cohesion with our real life pace.
MARKET PLACE:
In a medieval town or a little city in africa or asia, place like market was and is the center of social life. Even time and calendar are based on it. In a mmo there's nothing else more awfull than the auction house in term of immersion. To see one hundred players near just one npc who's managing all the markets is awfull, and it makes the other parts of the city quiet empty.
Market places in citys should be the center of our trade even more in a local way to seeing it. Npc vendors could sell our items by specialities. If you're an experienced black-smith you could help the local one to repair more efficiently players armors. And you could pay fees on trade to encourage direct player trade. In eq2 there were 2 class of players,
the rich and hurry one goes to auction house and buys what he wants with 10% or 20% fee (i don't remember), and the other (the smart one) search in list where the vendor house is, go there, enter the house, visit house, see housing of the owner, sometimes discuss with the owner if he's here and buy his item with fee reduction. Player gained reward if they moved, if they made an effort.
I don't say we need to copy this system but it may inspire us. As i saw in "Death to the auction house" topic there's much different ways to consider this part of the game but we may try to make market place important to bring more life in a city at least for commons or consumables items (arrows for examples for a ranger). It should be at the center of our city life.
TAVERNS, TEMPLES:
To make citys alive and to create social between us, i think places like temples and taverns should be important too. Again some posts in the forum and VoT talked about it, but it should be a rendez vous point in our game lifes. Rumors could be heard indeed to engage future quest, but it's a place where you can restore yourself too. In there alchool tolerance skill could be more than in the original everquest. You could eat, watch a show on the scene with juggler or dancer musician show. Maybe it may makes you gain some buffs. You could pray in temple, light a candel etc...
In star wars galaxies, i was a super doctor and combat medic. I remerber when i was in hospital, curing wounds from everybody, and it was quiet a good way to socialize.
Again i don't say we need to copy that but i say there's a lot of mechanics we could use to make our world more alive and logical without making boring or to realistic.
WORKSHOPS:
I crafted in every games i played and i remember the workshops instances in EQ2 citys. Craft at the start was an interactive work between each crafters, and the fact we were in the same area made us more involved. We felt that we were part of a real courageous brotherhood, the one that had the patience to combine anything for other people. Event like mythical craft quest in eq2 or making a boat in vanguard were great experiences (thx Brad). You needed contacts, with a good friend list, but the fact that we were together sometimes at the same place made things a bit natural,
logical and mostly for the win of the socialize aspect.
Again i don't say it must be like the other mmo i played but it seems important for me that we have the feeling we're part of something bigger than us. Like a locomotive is pushing all the cars in a train, craft is always a collective job and to have colleague near you is always beneficial even for spirit. That's why i'm talking about workshops why craft-workers should be close to each other and not so far from market-places in citys. It will bring life to another quarter.
OTHERS PLACES:
It should be another important "poles" like harbors, etc.. to maintain every citys alive. Places we can meet others players to do different activities. I heard someone talked about card game we could play, it makes me think diplomacy or mini games but i'm digressing and it's a lot of work. But social is not only combat (wich i love).
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I think if we want social we need life in our towns and capitals, we need places that regroup people not with an artificial way but with a logical one.
Places where it makes sense to meet someone, places where you feel usefull to the need of someone. That's social i guess.
There is nothing more frustrating than seeing an empty city in terms of immersion.
Sorry if i double-posted and sorry for my english :)
Great post Catharsis, I agree completely, especially with your section "Taverns, Temples".
I loved the social life that Dancer/Musician/Image Designer and Doctor proffesions gave you in SWG! It was so fun to go into a bustling cantina as and adventurer and as a preformer because of all the awesome player interaction that would take place (though some of it could be a little creepy at times :P), and I loved how usefull it felt being a doctor sitting in the med bay with a line of people coming to you to cure their wounds and buff them up :D
PS; Your English was great :)
I couldn`t agree with you more Catharsis, some very nice Ideas and Thoughts here. You are absolutely right. While taking reference to Real Life (And staying away from modern days) But reviewing our History as you mentioned is something alot of us i would like to think would like to see happen here.
It is definitely something that has alot of intrest and confliction and something that does seem to need to be discussed to see how we can make it work for all partys. Obviously taking into account on how VR would like to do this. As this is something i think we won`t here alot about at the time being as i am sure VR are Busy with other Game Dynamics and pushing there Build forward.
You are right about the Social aspect. Players being social isn`t everything though. If NPC`s have social behaviours and move around their citys and close up shop or give us that feeling of being alive and having Interactions where it makes sense like taverns and temples and churches being a place of comfort or to hang out would go along way.
It will be very interesting to see where we go and what Visions VR have or if they already have a general Idea on what they would like to do. While Aradune has already theoriecrafted on some of these Ideas, these are just personal thoughts. Its going to be fun to discuss the Solid thoughts once we have them ;)
Great post, I also think city life is vitally important. I really hope they dedicate a future phase of development just to focus on this aspect.
Im all for anything they put in the cities to create a lived in feel, its the main thing that worries me about player or guild housing. In EQ2 when they put in guild halls the cities became ghost towns because they put EVERYTHING in the halls. Tradeskills, merchants, Teleporters, banks and anything else that use to be done in the city was now down right inside the guild hall
Couldn't agree more Sevens, they need to think of more creative ways to reward guilds so that the same thing doesn't happen in Pantheon. To the OP, I think your ideas are great and I hope they can be implemented in a creative and fun way. I do think that a lot of the social areas will depend greatly on us as players. Will we come to town and actually socialize and participate with each other, or will we want to run through, grab our food, and go?
catharsis said:
I see and I saw in many posts or shows like Voices of Terminus (by the way, congrats guys you make an excellent work, VoT for the win !) topics about mechanics like banking, trading, etc..My thoughts, before to go further in these mechanics, were that we have good example of how it works in our history or in little towns on our planet (not in our modern city).
I'm not talking about a realistic vision because realism in mmo could feel "boring", i'm talking more about how logical the exchange between people should be and becomes more social, immersive, natural and in cohesion with our real life pace.
Thank you for the shout out!!! We really want to bring ideas to the table with our show. We invite everyone to Join us give your feed back and opinion. We love to theory craft and we would like to give our input and take for the developers to think about. We think there is a chance that maybe the devs can implement some of these ideas the community brings fourth.
I love your post and you made some very good points. Thanks again for your kind words regarding the Voices of Terminus show we really appreciate it and it let's us know , we are doing something right to involve the community and bring fourth ideas to the masses. Thank you so very much.
Trouble with crafting within the city limits...(saw this in Vanguard) it causes tremendous lag and crashes. Is the technology better today? Probably...that was in 2007. I would be good with crafting within a city or a guild hall, long as it has been optimized..to lessen lag ...hehe
CanadinaXegony said:Trouble with crafting within the city limits...(saw this in Vanguard) it causes tremendous lag and crashes. Is the technology better today? Probably...that was in 2007. I would be good with crafting within a city or a guild hall, long as it has been optimized..to lessen lag ...hehe
I have found that crafting in the guild halls tends to isolate players from each other...might be better to have crafting in the open and not in the GH. I'm purely looking at it from a social aspect, mind you.
Since it has already been said that there will not be instances, this infers that crafting will probably be open world. Hopefully the issues you mentioned of lag will be taken into consideration.
Frogz0r said:CanadinaXegony said:Trouble with crafting within the city limits...(saw this in Vanguard) it causes tremendous lag and crashes. Is the technology better today? Probably...that was in 2007. I would be good with crafting within a city or a guild hall, long as it has been optimized..to lessen lag ...hehe
I have found that crafting in the guild halls tends to isolate players from each other...might be better to have crafting in the open and not in the GH. I'm purely looking at it from a social aspect, mind you.
Since it has already been said that there will not be instances, this infers that crafting will probably be open world. Hopefully the issues you mentioned of lag will be taken into consideration.
I agree crafting in guild halls and instances does break down the social aspect of gaming. We discussed ways where crafting interaction with players making items requires them to talk and work out plans to make armors, weapons etc. together to make a final product. Crafting should take place in the open world and the city zones.
With technology and optimization the lag and all these things with processing power etc should now be mute compared back to the day. I do know Vanguard lacked optimization..... and they didn't have chance to get it up to par. It was to late in the end when Sony Online Entertainment shut it down.
I don't think we will have to worry to much about lagging with crafting. I think we just have to find a happy balance with crafting and keep it so where it needs player interaction.
Awesome topic.
I always thought cities could be something more than Disneyland-esque backdrops that were really no better than pixel shaded cardboard cutouts. There are three areas in major cities that typically see much of the player-character traffic; the bank, the tradeskill area, and the pubs. It would be nice to see those areas elevated with more realistic elements. But even overall, a few added details would bring linfe to an otherwise dulled theme park construction.
I envision activities (tarot, darts, drunkeness, brawls, music and song) in pubs; or an occasional thief that runs through town pick-pocketing and causing other mischeif (but PCs can chase the theif and attempt to catch them for local honor); different areas could reflect various occurences that allow the player to become more involved.
Rachael said:Great post Catharsis, I agree completely, especially with your section "Taverns, Temples".
I loved the social life that Dancer/Musician/Image Designer and Doctor proffesions gave you in SWG! It was so fun to go into a bustling cantina as and adventurer and as a preformer because of all the awesome player interaction that would take place (though some of it could be a little creepy at times :P), and I loved how usefull it felt being a doctor sitting in the med bay with a line of people coming to you to cure their wounds and buff them up :D
PS; Your English was great :)
Thank you Rachael (Google Trad saved me a bit), it took me a long moment to write this :)
When i think of SWG, i always remind myself these moments too. Feel secure and usefull in a city with guys talking about their adventures and pvp cession or even their own real life.
Interaction was simple but great and i guess that's what Brad and devs are trying to restore in Pantheon. In their show, Yarnila and Dalinsia explained very well that we need these timeouts. Even in combat, we kill something, sit down, chitchat a little bit and let's go we are on the road again. Today's games make me feel in the urgency of the rush but we don't need it, we are already pressed in real life. That's a reason why pantheon interested me, time is on my side.
Yarnila said:It is definitely something that has alot of intrest and confliction and something that does seem to need to be discussed to see how we can make it work for all partys. Obviously taking into account on how VR would like to do this. As this is something i think we won`t here alot about at the time being as i am sure VR are Busy with other Game Dynamics and pushing there Build forward.
You are right about the Social aspect. Players being social isn`t everything though. If NPC`s have social behaviours and move around their citys and close up shop or give us that feeling of being alive and having Interactions where it makes sense like taverns and temples and churches being a place of comfort or to hang out would go along way.
It will be very interesting to see where we go and what Visions VR have or if they already have a general Idea on what they would like to do. While Aradune has already theoriecrafted on some of these Ideas, these are just personal thoughts. Its going to be fun to discuss the Solid thoughts once we have them ;)
You're absolutly right.
Devs are surely occupied atm, Brad talked about it and we know they are concerned with these ideas.
I share your opinion with NPC, they are part of the social and immersive aspect. They should be, at least, a bit active and not static like in many mmorpg.
I can't wait for the alpha and fun is the word :) To see Pantheon take life, and to be part of it should be a fantastic experience :)
Sevens said:Im all for anything they put in the cities to create a lived in feel, its the main thing that worries me about player or guild housing. In EQ2 when they put in guild halls the cities became ghost towns because they put EVERYTHING in the halls. Tradeskills, merchants, Teleporters, banks and anything else that use to be done in the city was now down right inside the guild hall
Sadly, it breaked all life in cities. Sure it was usefull to have anything we want close to us, but it was to much. EQ2 was roughly easier and made us lazzy. Queynos and Freeport were big cities with many NPC, building, etc... it took days for devs to code. Actually it's like they lost time to create something, that's why i think high and low levels content or encounter should be mixed in all zones. That's something we realize when we're accomplishing a mythical quest. It often demands you to explore zones you forgot or even didn't know.
Devs said GH wouldn't be instance, it's a good idea and it should bring life in certain regions. However, cities could stay the center of our activities. After all, that's where we're making business today. I don't know if it's a good thing actually on earth but it seems that more than 50% of the population live in a city now.
Dalinsia said:Thank you for the shout out!!! We really want to bring ideas to the table with our show. We invite everyone to Join us give your feed back and opinion. We love to theory craft and we would like to give our input and take for the developers to think about. We think there is a chance that maybe the devs can implement some of these ideas the community brings fourth.
I love your post and you made some very good points. Thanks again for your kind words regarding the Voices of Terminus show we really appreciate it and it let's us know , we are doing something right to involve the community and bring fourth ideas to the masses. Thank you so very much.
You deserve it guys :)
In fact i forgot Pantheon 2 years ago, and it's seeing your show with brainbean that remembered me the game. Thanks to you i pledged before the cut off.
I watched almost all your shows this week. You include great ideas with a lot of fun, mixing experiences from several games and i share your opinion on what a mmorpg should be. I guess it's because we discovered the genre with EQ1. Episode where you imitate a child who does not want to walk 2000 yards to go to somewhere makes me laugh. Maybe it's an echo of something i heard in real life :)
It's so true, perhaps it is in tune with the times i don't know, but it must be link with the idea that today games in general are sometimes senseless and easier.
Anyway, thank you guys for making noise about the game and taking on your time, i really appreciate it.
Frogz0r said:CanadinaXegony said:Trouble with crafting within the city limits...(saw this in Vanguard) it causes tremendous lag and crashes. Is the technology better today? Probably...that was in 2007. I would be good with crafting within a city or a guild hall, long as it has been optimized..to lessen lag ...hehe
I have found that crafting in the guild halls tends to isolate players from each other...might be better to have crafting in the open and not in the GH. I'm purely looking at it from a social aspect, mind you.
Since it has already been said that there will not be instances, this infers that crafting will probably be open world. Hopefully the issues you mentioned of lag will be taken into consideration.
That's true it was a technical issue in Vanguard. I'm not a specialist however i hope devs will create something close to Vanguard craft. It was deep, interactive, you had to move in other region to discover recipe, etc...
I made a mistake when i talked about workshops. I didn't mean we should be parked in craft instances, we need to see our crafters at work in town. It was a way to explain we need sometimes proximity because it's often a team work (including vendors if there are). In Mumbai in India, you know, the stores and workshops are connected each other, but again it's not a good example. Simulating streets of Mumbai could bring technical issues for sure :)
OakKnower said:Awesome topic.
I always thought cities could be something more than Disneyland-esque backdrops that were really no better than pixel shaded cardboard cutouts. There are three areas in major cities that typically see much of the player-character traffic; the bank, the tradeskill area, and the pubs. It would be nice to see those areas elevated with more realistic elements. But even overall, a few added details would bring linfe to an otherwise dulled theme park construction.
I envision activities (tarot, darts, drunkeness, brawls, music and song) in pubs; or an occasional thief that runs through town pick-pocketing and causing other mischeif (but PCs can chase the theif and attempt to catch them for local honor); different areas could reflect various occurences that allow the player to become more involved.
It's great ideas, i like new elements or activities that bring life in game. In fact i'd love to mix drunkness and darts, it could be fun :) i'm kidding :)
Pick-pocket is also a good idea in term of roleplay, and rogue could be more than a "big dps". However it seems a lot of work. Even if they implement 1 or 2 ideas like this, immersion could be fantastic.
Lots of great ideas here for sure. Anything to help bring the cities alive.
As far as the lag thing in VG. That had little to do with crafting in cities. While my fave game ever, it just wasn't done when it was released. It's been talked about before so no use going into it agian. Bottom line: Pantheon will be able to support active cities I believe with little trouble.
Agian, great stuff here.
Rachael said:Great post Catharsis, I agree completely, especially with your section "Taverns, Temples".
I loved the social life that Dancer/Musician/Image Designer and Doctor proffesions gave you in SWG! It was so fun to go into a bustling cantina as and adventurer and as a preformer because of all the awesome player interaction that would take place (though some of it could be a little creepy at times :P), and I loved how usefull it felt being a doctor sitting in the med bay with a line of people coming to you to cure their wounds and buff them up :D
PS; Your English was great :)
Ah memories...I was an Elder Master Dancer in SWG...at one point you could train in other skill trees, trained up in some fighting skills, could pvp in the streets, Creature Handlers were great for handing out pets to the dancers..hehe. And then everything changed, won't go into that here. But the classes were all dependent on each other, used to line up for buffs from the Doctors, so we "ents" could buff the fighters that came into the cantina...get rid of their mind wounds etc. Great community there.
I think this concept is extremely important. It plays into something I often bring up which is how the world is expanded.
EQ was pretty bad at splitting player populations up. Whenever a new expansion came out, players of appropriate level range would bail and never been seen again in the previous major city/hub. This started with the starting cities being abandoned, then moved to Firiona Vie & The Overthere, then Thurgadin, so on.
The reason players did this is because essentially all the “amenities” of home were available at the new city in the expansion. Sure, this lowered travel time between the city and the new expansion, but it completely screwed up the player balance in the rest of the world. I don’t think that’s a worthy trade off.
In order for a social/city life experience the developers are going to have to grit their teeth and fight against the urge to only think about the game one expansion at a time and consider the game as a whole each time the world is expanded.
I say NO to adding major cities/hubs with each expansion. I want higher level players returning to the starting cities every day or frequently because things may not be found or be available elsewhere.
bigdogchris said:I think this concept is extremely important. It plays into something I often bring up which is how the world is expanded.
EQ was pretty bad at splitting player populations up. Whenever a new expansion came out, players of appropriate level range would bail and never been seen again in the previous major city/hub. This started with the starting cities being abandoned, then moved to Firiona Vie & The Overthere, then Thurgadin, so on.
The reason players did this is because essentially all the “amenities” of home were available at the new city in the expansion. Sure, this lowered travel time between the city and the new expansion, but it completely screwed up the player balance in the rest of the world. I don’t think that’s a worthy trade off.
In order for a social/city life experience the developers are going to have to grit their teeth and fight against the urge to only think about the game one expansion at a time and consider the game as a whole each time the world is expanded.
I say NO to adding major cities/hubs with each expansion. I want higher level players returning to the starting cities every day or frequently because things may not be found or be available elsewhere.
I couldnt agree more, and by all the gods of the Fallen Pantheon no all encompassing Plane of Knowledge!
Great post, Catharsis! :)
Great imagination! to all of you! /CHEER
bigdogchris-
EQ was pretty bad at splitting player populations up. Whenever a new expansion came out, players of appropriate level range would bail and never been seen again in the previous major city/hub. This started with the starting cities being abandoned, then moved to Firiona Vie & The Overthere, then Thurgadin, so on.
The reason players did this is because essentially all the “amenities” of home were available at the new city in the expansion. Sure, this lowered travel time between the city and the new expansion, but it completely screwed up the player balance in the rest of the world. I don’t think that’s a worthy trade off.
In order for a social/city life experience the developers are going to have to grit their teeth and fight against the urge to only think about the game one expansion at a time and consider the game as a whole each time the world is expanded.
I say NO to adding major cities/hubs with each expansion. I want higher level players returning to the starting cities every day or frequently because things may not be found or be available elsewhere.
AMEN!
Rachael said:Great post Catharsis, I agree completely, especially with your section "Taverns, Temples".
I loved the social life that Dancer/Musician/Image Designer and Doctor proffesions gave you in SWG! It was so fun to go into a bustling cantina as and adventurer and as a preformer because of all the awesome player interaction that would take place (though some of it could be a little creepy at times :P), and I loved how usefull it felt being a doctor sitting in the med bay with a line of people coming to you to cure their wounds and buff them up :D
PS; Your English was great :)
I have those memories too Rachel...the streets were alive with pvp, and the cantinas were hubs of activity...(Elder Master Dancer here) we taught the newbies how to cure mind wounds, and helped them level up at the same time. Entertainers relied on doctors for their dance buffs, fighters relied on the entertainers to cure their mind wounds etc...the whole community was interdependent on each other. It meant you got to know everyone. Good or Bad lol. Those were the good old days. :)
Cana
bigdogchris said:I think this concept is extremely important. It plays into something I often bring up which is how the world is expanded.
EQ was pretty bad at splitting player populations up. Whenever a new expansion came out, players of appropriate level range would bail and never been seen again in the previous major city/hub. This started with the starting cities being abandoned, then moved to Firiona Vie & The Overthere, then Thurgadin, so on.
The reason players did this is because essentially all the “amenities” of home were available at the new city in the expansion. Sure, this lowered travel time between the city and the new expansion, but it completely screwed up the player balance in the rest of the world. I don’t think that’s a worthy trade off.
In order for a social/city life experience the developers are going to have to grit their teeth and fight against the urge to only think about the game one expansion at a time and consider the game as a whole each time the world is expanded.
I say NO to adding major cities/hubs with each expansion. I want higher level players returning to the starting cities every day or frequently because things may not be found or be available elsewhere.
I have to agree with BigDog...make the new expansions, create content within the already existing home cities..put a high level raid dungeon beneath those cities..anything else can grow outside..scavenger quests within the cities for the newbies to partake in...faction quests to gain faction etc. Small businesses that help crafters along...anything that makes you return again and again. Furniture markets. Perhaps GM events..where you have to save your city from invasions by mobs.