After watching several videos I am reminded of some of the animations in Vanguard saga of heroes. While I liked the animations of my Orc Warrior and my Orc Dread Knight they still seemed to be a bit slow and dated (Not complaining mind you).
I bring up this topic because I am having several debates within my "Neverwinter Nights Online" teamspeak (guild of over 300 individuals), which I am try to get several of my friends whom I have been playing with to pledge (doing the $50.00 pledge) in order to support the game and the vision. My question is, because I have not seen anything on the forums, that is showing detailed information about combat animations.
Are there any videos talking about this or topics created by the developers that I can link to the "MidKnight/Daybreak" Express group (Current guild I am in in "NWO") that would help my argument in why they should pledge to (I've already pledged and plan on upping my pledge).
I just want to get the word out there and have people not look over this game, based on pre-Alph footage.
Thanks for your time,
Sincerely,
Gomok "The Destroyer"
PS,
I decided to add a old school video of a personal friend of mine who recorded the APW raid we helped them complete (I'm the guy saying "It's casting" in the beginning of the video, you will also see my Orc Warrior fighting "Gomok" and tha animations of which I speak :P
Having a slower combat pace is wonderful imo. However, having a smooth fluidity to those animations is imperative, and something I hope VR spends a significant amount of time/resources on. Mocap is the go to tech for acheiving this, and with the advances in the mocap technology over the years the cost shouldn't be prohibitive.
Grymmlocke said:Having a slower combat pace is wonderful imo. However, having a smooth fluidity to those animations is imperative, and something I hope VR spends a significant amount of time/resources on. Mocap is the go to tech for acheiving this, and with the advances in the mocap technology over the years the cost shouldn't be prohibitive.
I agree. To me the fluidity of the animation is more important that it's speed. It really matters not how fast/slow things go, if the animations are poor it just bugs me. Indeed mocap is some great technology to use for this as well. The monks of EQ2 are some of my fave and a great example of how well you can do with both mocap and devs who know how to use it well.
Grymmlocke said:Having a slower combat pace is wonderful imo. However, having a smooth fluidity to those animations is imperative, and something I hope VR spends a significant amount of time/resources on. Mocap is the go to tech for acheiving this, and with the advances in the mocap technology over the years the cost shouldn't be prohibitive.
What is this "Mocap" technology you speak of, Grymm?
Is that something they are using to sand paper out the fluidity of the combat?
And again, I am fine with the slow pace combat, I think NWO is slower than WOW, too be honest, but the more sparkly, fluid, non clunky movements you see with the avatars as development go through the better. I think this is crucial in getting people that are playing similiar games, EQ1, EQ2, BDO, WOW, TERA, FF "RB" and the likes to actually look at the game before pledging.
And I think, as long as the movements are fluid, people will be satisfied (I hope).
Gomok said:Grymmlocke said:Having a slower combat pace is wonderful imo. However, having a smooth fluidity to those animations is imperative, and something I hope VR spends a significant amount of time/resources on. Mocap is the go to tech for acheiving this, and with the advances in the mocap technology over the years the cost shouldn't be prohibitive.
What is this "Mocap" technology you speak of, Grymm?
Is that something they are using to sand paper out the fluidity of the combat?
And again, I am fine with the slow pace combat, I think NWO is slower than WOW, too be honest, but the more sparkly, fluid, non clunky movements you see with the avatars as development go through the better. I think this is crucial in getting people that are playing similiar games, EQ1, EQ2, BDO, WOW, TERA, FF "RB" and the likes to actually look at the game before pledging.
And I think, as long as the movements are fluid, people will be satisfied (I hope).
Motion capture. Used to capture the natural fluid motions of actual models using sensors placed on their bodies to record those movements in digital form.
Want to know something silly? (I am a font of useless trivia)
Early studies through the 70's - 90's into human anthropology have tested and re-tested the hypothesis that you can tell the gender of a person just by their gait! They put people into black catsuits with white reflective dots stuck onto their joints, then turned off the lights. Test subjects were then asked to watch them move about and judge if they were men or women. It turns out you *can* tell.
So what has this to do with character animation?
MOCAP uses real movement recording to map to the 'bones' within rigged 3D models. The results are more fluid and 'lifelike' than what is just effectively a glorified version of the 'stop-motion' techniques previously used (think Ray Harry Housen). However the person you are recording is either male or female. Not both. So, in truth, the animation you create via MOCAP is actually 'male' or 'female', irrespective of whether you intend to attach it to a male or female character/NPC. Thankfully the small scale, some transposition errors and awkward viewpoint make it hard/impossible to determine which it is!
So yeah, there's that hehe...
Evoras said:Want to know something silly? (I am a font of useless trivia)
Early studies through the 70's - 90's into human anthropology have tested and re-tested the hypothesis that you can tell the gender of a person just by their gait! They put people into black catsuits with white reflective dots stuck onto their joints, then turned off the lights. Test subjects were then asked to watch them move about and judge if they were men or women. It turns out you *can* tell.
So what has this to do with character animation?
MOCAP uses real movement recording to map to the 'bones' within rigged 3D models. The results are more fluid and 'lifelike' than what is just effectively a glorified version of the 'stop-motion' techniques previously used (think Ray Harry Housen). However the person you are recording is either male or female. Not both. So, in truth, the animation you create via MOCAP is actually 'male' or 'female', irrespective of whether you intend to attach it to a male or female character/NPC. Thankfully the small scale, some transposition errors and awkward viewpoint make it hard/impossible to determine which it is!
So yeah, there's that hehe...
Now that IS interesting, at least to me. Thanks for sharing, as I now feel...educated :)
Player character models and animations for both PCs and NPCs are not our highest priority right now. That said, we are also aware that many people are struggling to be able to look beyond placeholder assets. Some can see through it and imagine what the game will look like later, the place holders not bothering them, but then many can't.
And that's fine -- it is what it is.
So while I can't go into details, we have re-prioritized some things such that we are still putting the majority of our effort into building the game in the right order, but that we are also devoting some time and money towards addressing some of the visuals sooner than was originally planned.
More than that I cannot say at this point. But, in summary, you may not have to wait as long as was originally planned to see some assets that are more polished and representative of Pantheon at launch.
Aradune said:Player character models and animations for both PCs and NPCs are not our highest priority right now. That said, we are also aware that many people are struggling to be able to look beyond placeholder assets. Some can see through it and imagine what the game will look like later, the place holders not bothering them, but then many can't.
And that's fine -- it is what it is.
So while I can't go into details, we have re-prioritized some things such that we are still putting the majority of our effort into building the game in the right order, but that we are also devoting some time and money towards addressing some of the visuals sooner than was originally planned.
More than that I cannot say at this point. But, in summary, you may not have to wait as long as was originally planned to see some assets that are more polished and representative of Pantheon at launch.
I love eye candy, but not at the expense of quality game play. BDO is a graphically beautiful game, but I can barely bring mysef to login anymore due to abysmal game play. I wasn't drawn to Panthoen because of any expectations of stellar graphics. I was drawn by the promise of challenging and immersive game play, deep and meaningul lore, and a requirement for social interaction amongst the players. That being said, go ahead and put a bit of polish on it. It will bring more attention to the game, but stay true to your developement plans. The strong foundation you are building is much more important for the game than a bit of eye candy.
I get the catch-22 that VR finds itself in.
Follwing the 'best' order of development (long-term view) would have animations as far, far down the line. However, today's industry forces games companies to live or die by the 24-hours news cycle of the myriad gaming websites and portals and their need to publish publish publish for the voracious appetites of their global readership! So games get 'forced' into revealing content earlier than would be prudent. Indeed, many games release unfinished products as 'open betas' just to get round this!
Personally, I am more interested in:
1. That the animators/char-designers are closely liaising with the guys developing the world/zones and the lore. This way they will have an intimate knowledge of the world that the characters will need to fit into ... and the world developers can think 'how will that look to a gnome' .. 'Will an ogre fit int here?' etc (suspect these guys are the same? Am I advocating the VR devs talking to themselves???)
2. Any mechanics (collisions, holding hands, climbing, piggy-back races etc) are discussed in advance so the models have the correct rigging to be able to support the mechanics being developed and not have to be 'bolted on at the end'..
3. umm,.... errr... thats it. Well.... apart from, if i must wear a robe ... can my legs still exist under it please? I promise to wear underwear (well, most of the time).
While I am happy with placeholder models, this doesn't mean I will not be happy to preview the (presumably single race) characters you plan to reveal as both taster and tester.
Evoras, doesn't look *too* bad in a sarong. Sort-of.
Garnok- TY for that Vanguard video! Guessing the opening flying mount was Vanguard as well.... WOOT!!!!!! Loved all of it. Played Vanguard but not for long. Never got to do much :( ... I had such high hopes for Vanguard. Thanks for that :)
I - like most of you - am for making the game RIGHT first, THEN make it pretty :)
I have been lurking these forums alot, I watch the streams every time and my only concern right now are the animations. I know from Aradunes post about 2 years ago that they said they are still working on animations and that they will be added later. How far down development do combat animations normally get added? I loved eq1 for what it was but the combat was stale. I dont want wow animations im hoping for something inbetween, something that is pleasing to watch while my character is fighting through dungeons.
The graphics for the character models are great and im loving the look of the landscape, I just wish I knew what VR vision is for the combat animations. I know this game is designed around eq style and I love that. That is the reason I pledged and fully support this game, but from what I see from the earlier videos till now I dont see much change with the combat animations. Im curious how much furthur will we see in terms of updated combat animations or at what stage of development we would see that.
I just don't get these posts. If you had to design a game, what would you absolutely want to nail first, the world mechanics such as class abilities, design and balance, zone creation and content balance and itemization, or animations?
This is exactly why VR is shy about showing PRE ALPHA footage, despite the fact that they've made amazing progress in so many other areas. People are complaining/wondering about the clear coat on a car that isn't even a rolling chassis yet.
Alittle bit of criticism and the fan boys come out in full force. If you actualy read what I put I was asking what is their vision is on combat animations to get an idea of what they are going for AND in what stage of development that would come into effect. Im sorry im not blinded by PURE NOSTALGIA like you are, and believe me when I say im not the only one curious what they are basing and designing their combat off of.
zhyn said:Alittle bit of criticism and the fan boys come out in full force. If you actualy read what I put I was asking what is their vision is on combat animations to get an idea of what they are going for AND in what stage of development that would come into effect. Im sorry im not blinded by PURE NOSTALGIA like you are, and believe me when I say im not the only one curious what they are basing and designing their combat off of.
lol. Don't call me out for not reading your post and then make a completely nonsensical reply full of personal attacks.
Forgive me, I'm tired of the animation posts. Every stream it's the same thing. It's the same thing on FB, it's the same thing on reddit, it's the same thing in discord, it's the same thing on twitch, it's the same thing here.
Accidental double post. Forum challenged :(
Keno Monster said:zhyn said:Alittle bit of criticism and the fan boys come out in full force. If you actualy read what I put I was asking what is their vision is on combat animations to get an idea of what they are going for AND in what stage of development that would come into effect. Im sorry im not blinded by PURE NOSTALGIA like you are, and believe me when I say im not the only one curious what they are basing and designing their combat off of.
lol. Don't call me out for not reading your post and then make a completely nonsensical reply full of personal attacks.
Forgive me, I'm tired of the animation posts. Every stream it's the same thing. It's the same thing on FB, it's the same thing on reddit, it's the same thing in discord, it's the same thing on twitch, it's the same thing here.
Because it's important to a significant number of people, apparently. They really are clunky and need to be addressed. Maybe not before the game is fleshed out and working, but before launch hopefully. I'm sorry you are sick of seeing it asked, but take that as a sign of importance to many prospective players? The first time I saw combat I was like, yeesh, that looks an aweful lot like EverQuest.
I asked about this, because after reading Aradune's response from 2016 and not really seeing much difference across various stages of development, I wondered why.
Animation is one of those funny things that when it's good, it gets overlooked since it's not sticking out like a sore thumb - but when it's not good, it draws a lot of fire because it really, really sticks out.
While completely different in nature and suffering from their own basket of problems, you've got games like BDO and TERA which have a gorgeous fluidity and weightiness to their movement - it's the kind of animation that makes you look forward to using certain abilities, cause they just look awesome. WoW, even though its animations are quite vanilla, has smoothed them out and added a variety of them over the years and they are good enough not to draw ire I think. I also remember Wildstar have good character animations. Though they may be different styles of games, they'll inevitably be compared in some ways, animation possibly being one of them.
The motion/stiffness of characters moving in a world can go a long ways towards making look something great, or a long ways towards making something look dated and unappealing.
Just sort of a general response as to why a lot of people seem concerned over it.