In EQ and most other MMOs, I think the event of a mob spawning is treated a bit poorly. Here's what typically happens: A camp is cleared, a certain amount of time passes, and new mobs just *pop* out of the aether and take the place of their predecessors. The "popping" breaks immersion a bit - its almost as if we are seeing a dev tool each time a mob is spawned.
What if Pantheon introduced meaningful, interactable spawn points and rooted the origination of new mobs in the environment?
Here's a few of examples:
1) A skeleton could break through the ground before beginning his patrol.
2) An orc raider could come out of a door from a hut before taking his camp position.
3) A snake could slithers out of a hole in the ground before randomy traversing the zone.
Now, I'm not suggesting anything too dramatic... yet. So far, I'm just asking for an environment derived animation which helps spawning make more sense.
Alright, now let's get crazy. What if the spawn points are interactactable? Let's revisit our previous examples:
1) A cleric or crusader could cast Hallowed Ground which temporarily slows or stops undead spawning from that location.
2) A rogue use Tamper to temporarily lock the door so the next Orc will have difficulty spawning.
3) A ranger could use and Dismantle to fill the snake hole delaying the next snakes spawn.
This would add a minor, environmentally derived CC and add a new interaction level with the world.
Of course, the opposite interaction could exist too where players could boost spawn rates:
1) A Dire Lord could cast Unholy Ritual to increase undead spawn rate at a certain location (marked with a sweet pentagram and/or some candles of course).
2) A warrior could use Irritating Shout to aggrivate the Orcs to come out quicker.
3) A ranger could use Animal Bait to lure more snakes out of the hole, potentially using items he/she foraged.
Groups willing and able to take on faster spawn rates would now have that opportunity - if they have the right class on their team.
Now, spawning as it currently takes place is far from a game breaker. We are very comfortable with it by now. I'm not saying this is a necessary must have fix, but this is 2016, why not spice it up a bit? As far as the interactions go, I am only suggesting a minor, yet noticible difference in spawn rate - nothing huge by any means. It could be a fun new mechanic possibly tied into the perception system. What do you guys think?
Neat ideas, Syntro! I'm neutral on these in regards to spawning, but they could definitely flavor things up a bit. Your post did give me an idea, however: I think extrapolating these ideas to dungeon or raid mechanics could be worthwhile to explore.
Example: through a raid zone in a keep, there could be doors that require a Warrior to bash through. When that happens, the locking mechanism from the door is broken and dislodged. If a Rogue spots it with a perception check, they can pick it up and study it. Given one or two more of these locks to study, they obtain the ability to manipulate them. This could be used for future returns to this keep, where a Rogue can now unlock that door (giving the advantage of suprise for the group, whereas breaking through with the Warrior alerts all mobs in that room). Or, once the group enters into a boss fight, the Rogue could have the ability to sneak off behind the fight and lock a door or two to keep adds from rushing in, or diverting them to one route where an off-tank can have an easier time picking them up.
Sicario said:
Neat ideas, Syntro! I'm neutral on these in regards to spawning, but they could definitely flavor things up a bit. Your post did give me an idea, however: I think extrapolating these ideas to dungeon or raid mechanics could be worthwhile to explore.Example: through a raid zone in a keep, there could be doors that require a Warrior to bash through. When that happens, the locking mechanism from the door is broken and dislodged. If a Rogue spots it with a perception check, they can pick it up and study it. Given one or two more of these locks to study, they obtain the ability to manipulate them. This could be used for future returns to this keep, where a Rogue can now unlock that door (giving the advantage of suprise for the group, whereas breaking through with the Warrior alerts all mobs in that room). Or, once the group enters into a boss fight, the Rogue could have the ability to sneak off behind the fight and lock a door or two to keep adds from rushing in, or diverting them to one route where an off-tank can have an easier time picking them up.
Thanks man! Yup, exactly what I'm thinking. I think this mechanic would find a comfortable home within the perception system. You are absolutely right. This could create some really fun and tense moments in dungeons.
Syntro said:In EQ and most other MMOs, I think the event of a mob spawning is treated a bit poorly. Here's what typically happens: A camp is cleared, a certain amount of time passes, and new mobs just *pop* out of the aether and take the place of their predecessors. The "popping" breaks immersion a bit - its almost as if we are seeing a dev tool each time a mob is spawned.
What if Pantheon included meaningful, interactable spawn points and rooted the origination of new mobs in the environment?
Here's a few of examples:
1) A skeleton could break through the ground before beginning his patrol.
2) An orc raider could come out of a door from a hut before taking his camp position.
3) A snake could slithers out of a hole in the ground before randomy traversing the zone.Now, I'm not suggesting anything too dramatic... yet. So far, I'm just asking for an environment derived animation which helps spawning make more sense.
Alright, now let's get crazy. What if the spawn points are interactactable? Let's revisit our previous examples:
1) A cleric or crusader could cast Hallowed Ground which temporarily slows or stops undead spawning from that location.
2) A rogue use Tamper to temporarily lock the door so the next Orc will have difficulty spawning.
3) A ranger could use and Dismantle to fill the snake hole delaying the next snakes spawn.
This would add a minor, environmentally derived CC and add a new interaction level with the world.
Of course, the opposite interaction could exist too where players could boost spawn rates:
1) Dire Lords could casts Unholy Ritual to increase undead spawn rate at a certain location (marked with a sweet pentagram and/or some candles of course).
2) A warrior could cast Irritating Shout to aggrivate the Orcs to come out quicker.
3) A ranger could use Animal Bait to lure more snakes out of the hole, potentially using items he/she foraged.
Groups willing and able to take on faster spawn rates would now have that opportunity - if they have the right class on their team.
Now, spawning as it currently takes place is far from a game breaker. We are very comfortable with it by now. I'm not saying this is a necessary must have fix, but this is 2016, why not spice it up a bit? As far as the interactions go, I am only suggesting a minor, yet noticible difference in spawn rate - nothing huge by any means. It could be a fun new mechanic possibly tied into the perception system. What do you guys think?
Oh man, that is some great stuff. To me it would add a whole new level of immersion to the game. Especially the part about certian classes being able to influence the spawn rate one way or the other.
This is a very cool idea though then enforce some limitations on the landscape etc... If you want a group of travelling goblins around a campfire in a barren land you would feel obliged to have some sort of house they could come out of... I suppose when they spawn they could be approaching the camp so it would be as if they had just travelled there... Still, great idea!
Its a great idea mate, love it! there might be a few things to consider... I think this sort of thing would work really well for a dungeon with lots of close proximity areas to have a spawning door near the mobs end location, this would ultimately mean we end up camping the door now instead of the end location, thats fine because we often camp a smaller area inside of a dungeon anyways... But when we are out in an open zone and you have the mobs coming from a specific location each time that may lead to a big zone feeling very empty as many types of mobs are killed firstly whilst wandering and then the re-spawning location being camped and competed over, not allowing for many mobs to end up roaming freely as they end up dying as soon as they emerge from their holes / doors etc. I guess this could be counteracted by having lots of points all over but these will be learnt over time. Or would you propose that the doors / holes etc dont actually exist but are just a graphical addition at the time of the spawning... so you cant physically see the spawning point until the mob is coming though it, however this goes agains the initial immersion thing by having holes / doors appear out of no where.
The skele's digging themselves out of the ground is really cool and would mean that you couldnty see their spawn point till they were emerging and it would look awesome!!
I hope the above makes sense..
Great ideas all. In BDO there is a similar mechanic. Some mobs spawn out of various structures if you a inflict any damage on it. Also, at a location called soldiers rest the skeletons spawn by crawling out of the ground if you get within agro range of their spawn point. It would be cool if there was actually any doubt about the outcome, and you had to be concerned about getting these adds when you're engaged with other mobs. Sadly, BDO's combat isn't very challenging, so it ends up being just another cool visual/mechanic that would really keep you on your toes if they were actually dangerous.
great ideas syntro. I was thinking for the outside camps, instead of a doorway or hut have a campfire in various states of use and as a area trigger.
For instance:
1. A Burning campfire will have one goblin at the camp-(tending the fire) upon your approach, your intrusion into the goblin fire-tenders aggro range triggers a spawn of a full camp of goblins a short distance away. So like if you engage the fire tending goblin, 3 other goblins will spawn at various distances from the camp and head towards the camp- maybe 1 closer than the othet two. A buring fire means the camp is active and goblins are close by if not seen imediately
2. A Smoldering campfire with no goblin present. If you get near a proximityn area trigger on the smoldering capfire, this will spawn goblins at a slightly farther distance from camp and random order as to how far each one is to the camp. But all will be heading to the smoldering campfire.
3. A dead campfire. coming near will proximity-trigger spawn goblins somewhere in the zone, but heading away or random patrol from camp. Maybe for the sake of preventing griefing/training, once you trigger the proximity trigger on a dead campfire, it goes away so it can't be retriggered. Then the normal random respawn of a campfire can happen, wether it be burning, smoldering or dead.
Manouk said:great ideas syntro. I was thinking for the outside camps, instead of a doorway or hut have a campfire in various states of use and as a area trigger.
For instance:
1. A Burning campfire will have one goblin at the camp-(tending the fire) upon your approach, your intrusion into the goblin fire-tenders aggro range triggers a spawn of a full camp of goblins a short distance away. So like if you engage the fire tending goblin, 3 other goblins will spawn at various distances from the camp and head towards the camp- maybe 1 closer than the othet two. A buring fire means the camp is active and goblins are close by if not seen imediately
2. A Smoldering campfire with no goblin present. If you get near a proximityn area trigger on the smoldering capfire, this will spawn goblins at a slightly farther distance from camp and random order as to how far each one is to the camp. But all will be heading to the smoldering campfire.
3. A dead campfire. coming near will proximity-trigger spawn goblins somewhere in the zone, but heading away or random patrol from camp. Maybe for the sake of preventing griefing/training, once you trigger the proximity trigger on a dead campfire, it goes away so it can't be retriggered. Then the normal random respawn of a campfire can happen, wether it be burning, smoldering or dead.
One possibility with the dead campfire is if the pathing of the goblins were much wider than the camp istels in the first place, they could be spawned somewhere along that route. I agree with having the campfire go away after the trigger though, else you could end up triggring ranger trains :P A possible idea to add would be the interaction with the dead campfire to be somethign like coverning it up so the little buggers can't reuse it in the futer.
Dunno how this might work for some of the ideas, from the sound of it there are spawn points (ie the hut an orc comes out of) and then a spawn rest/waypoint location (where the spawn moves to). My issue would be that if the orc originates from the hut, then people will simply be camping the hut and waiting for the orc to spawn inside it. Especially with critical/quest/named spawns, people wouldn't want to risk someone else tagging their spawn because they weren't at the originating spawn location.
Two things I'd like to see that are somewhat related to the topic, intelligent spawning that recognizes where the players are, so that it MAY spawn without someone witnessing it. What I am thinking of would be for a player to trespass on a hunter's territory, so as a result you'd have a tiger, raptor, whatever have you - spawn... but the npc then hunts/stalks you. If the npc thinks it hasn't been 'seen' (from a 1st person perspective), then it might try to deliberately path thru concealing areas instead of a charge-straight-for-player path.
Kinda sad, I spent a few minutes trying to come up with a way to handle people seeing themselves having aggro from something - then I remembered this is supposed to be a more old-school game, so hopefully the game won't tell us when we are in combat. Yes, you can sit down to regen health/mana faster, just keep a lookout to make sure you don't have aggro ;)
More intelligent humanoid npc's might try and setup a trap even, where pathing ahead and bringing friends.
In the end I could get behind some of the ideas if implemented well, but it's definetly something (imo) that is worth tinkering with on a small scale. (meaning not trying to use the method for all mobs)
Lokkan said:Dunno how this might work for some of the ideas, from the sound of it there are spawn points (ie the hut an orc comes out of) and then a spawn rest/waypoint location (where the spawn moves to). My issue would be that if the orc originates from the hut, then people will simply be camping the hut and waiting for the orc to spawn inside it. Especially with critical/quest/named spawns, people wouldn't want to risk someone else tagging their spawn because they weren't at the originating spawn location.
Think back to original EQ and Orc1 camp in E-Commonlands. You'd have orcs gathered standing like 5 feet from their tents/huts. Wouldn't really be an issue.
For the snakes and other ambient creatures you could have just holes in the ground randomly placed around the map where different ones would spawn and start to roam. Holes for Snakes, maybe a bush for rats.
It wouldn't really change all that much but it just wouldn't be that immersion breaking ' *poof* there's the orc! '
I could see a lot of potential for quest development coming from something like this too. Imagine bumping into an NPC who gives you a cryptic clue like:
NPC: "The Orc Captain Shograck has been sighted near an orc settlement Southeast of Thronefast. We think he's holding the plans for an orc-led raid on the city, but we haven't been able to lure him out of his camp. It seems he considers himself above engaging any common foe..."
Then needing to figure out that you have to find a specific tent and have the warrior use his Irritating Shout ability to get him to spawn.
Well they could do a spawn grid rather than a spawn point. The mob can spawn at any given space within an area, but if a player is within that area the mob won't spawn.
Maybe some humanoid mobs could come out of a portal that opens near the spawn point, this gives you a limited amount of time to hit one of those abilities the OP mentioned that entices more mobs to come through at once or a mage that disrupts the portal giving a little bit more time before spawns. could even make it so the portal itself could damage players that stand too close to it for too long!
Static spawns have always been the one thing that consistently pulls my mind out of a game, the one thing that reminds me it is a game, a constructed reality. You enter some part of a dungeon and there are a group of goblins standing there...so you kill them...then X minutes later goblins spawn in those exact same spots even if you're standing there staring right at the spot on the floor. Having them respawn elsewhere and then make their way to that room would be a far more interesting mechanic. The problem I see with this approach is what happens when the dungeon is full of people? If whatever respawns in the dungeon has to respawn away from people, and people are everywhere.... See the problem?
If the 'other respawn spot' is known, like that door behind the hut that orc walked out of, won't people then just camp that door? And if they are too close to that door, is there another spot they can spawn from? Skeletons popping out of the ground works easily enough. But in confined areas soon you'll run out of spawn options...but I still just love the idea.
Thanks for all the love guys. I'm glad I plucked a harmonious chord with this idea. You all have come up with some really neat consequences including quests actions, situational awareness and strategizing, dungeon dynamics, etc. It seems we all feel the same way about spawning. Keep these ideas rolling - awesome stuff fam. <3