Hi! I know that lots of people do love to camp and even pharm for their phat lewts. Heck, they'll even extoll the virtues of monopolizing a camp in order to offer the results risk-free to the "casuals." Well, they may not even be casual players, but in the eyes of the pharmer, that doesn't matter. What you are really doing is circumnavigating the risk/reward model and that's not cool.
So what makes a camp? What makes a pharm?
A camp is a place to gain experience where the static spawns make for a decent fighting/downtime cycle. You might or might not be getting decent items and/or quest items from this camp.
A pharm is a place that does have decent items and/or quest items and, necessarily, does not involve experience gain. It is strictly an exploitative endeavor.
The intent, as stated by many a game developer, is to create a risk/reward system that keeps the player engaged and even excited. When the risk is zero, the reward should be zero. So things like LORE, NO DROP, "Binds on equip" and "Binds on pickup" were introduced to combat exploitative behavior. You see this across many MMORPGs. So there is acknowledgement of a potential for exploitation. How can it be curbed? Even with the above limitations, the amount of pharming present in all games with static NPC drops is disheartening.
I think it has to do with what people get out of a camp. I'd like to see the content be difficult enough that the reward is given with each risk - and the risk is great. RNG loot seeding is not risky, it is a frustrating time sink that is either really cool and risky when fought at a comparable level to the foe, or the players have leveled a couple of times and the fight is trivialized by the time the encounter comes up.
Now, I'm making assumptions here that may have no basis in Pantheon. Named spawns and camps may work completely different than what EQ and tons of post-EQ games have. Since I believe that it is a little similar from what I have seen thus far in the streams, I posted on my guild's website (OTG!) that there could be a risk calculator built into the spawning cycles to introduce that element of danger and perhaps act as a device to curb pharming. That went like this:
How about instead of making the spawning rates rare, make the difficulty of the spawn varied? I'd like to see it varied to the point where a spawn who repeatedly dies within seconds of spawning will then spawn in as five levels higher with two of its siblings to clear an obviously overpowered set of campers. If they kill those too easily, then introduce a completely different spawn that is red to max level. A monopoly-buster, who calmly awaits a real challenge and has no loot. It will despawn in 12-24 hours if not defeated. Either way, regular spawns resume after it is gone.
Barring this idea, I would truly love to see characters become level-adjusted when they try to take on content that is trivial. System: "This area is for players 20-35. You are now level 35!" When they leave, they get back their level. Guild Wars 2 and SW:TOR had this, though I found myself always level-adjusted, because I do quests in order to follow storylines and enjoy seeing all there is to see in an area.
Outside of a camp, such mechanics aren't as cut-and-dry, because these areas could be used as a pass-through. UG->LG, for example. If it is, then I believe there should be a choice, much like when mentoring someone. You have the choice of remaining your true level, eschewing XP and drops within that zone, or you can accept the level adjustment, which suddenly makes the place dangerous to you. That sounds quite artificial. However, exploiting an area's riches is just as artificial and prevents people from experiencing content at their appropriate level.
I would very much like to see the random spawning of named mobs that travel with no correlation to placeholders at all. You could even mix and match from the meaner spawns idea.
((TANGENT)) Oh my. I just thought of something. Wouldn't it be cool if the group leader could name the group and people within it have their group name included in their communications? The listing of who is in a group would also show up in a /who request, with an indicator of who the group leader is. Here, let me illustrate:
/who
Aorca
Begonefoolz
Cabbiebiscuits
Camp#1
Tigga (*)
Fonnzie
Jerbial
Sianne
XoppaCamp #3
Deo (*)
Vissix
Skrubbs
Garysnail
Trumpalot
At a glance, you can see that there are openings in two camp groups and possibly enough people to comprise a group for camp #2 and #4.
When you see: Tigga (Camp #1*) shouts, "Mad Axman heading toward camp 3," you know where it is coming from and where it is going.
The group members would have the group name after their name, so that you can identify who they are, but they aren't the steady, long-term party member (at that moment).
So when Fonnzie, a member of group #1 and Tigga speak, it looks like:
Fonnzie (Camp #1) says, "That liver creature is not cool."
Tigga chuckles menacingly.
Tigga (Camp #1*) says, "Let's make hot dogs!"
Of course, all of this would have to be an interface/chat options toggle.
Rather than trying to stop people from pharming by adding red mobs, why not take away the desire to pharm. Whenever you remove an option, it hurts everyone. Instead, make it so that pharming is no longer the best method for obtaining something.
My idea: Use large, random loot tables. Make it so that Hadden does not drop his earring 25% of the time. Instead he drops it like 1% of the time, but can also drop a large number of other barbarian type magic items. Make it so that Hadden's earring also is dropped from other higher level barbarians in various places. If someone wants to camp Hadden for his 'various' loots, then all the power to them. But camping him exclusively for one item... Remove the likelihood of that happeneing and you will remove the pharming.
Lets keep the game an adventure, not a pharming experience. If you really want a repetetive pharming game, go play farmville.
Here is an idea: Lets have many tens of thousands of items. Make it so that it is nearly impossible for four different characters to all have the same gear.
That's some good thinking! I like randomness, where I may have one of a thousand different items that others won't have. I think that a table like that would be fun to seed, but I'm not a developer. Having it be on different mobs is far better than named mobs being the sole source of cool stuff.
Punishing campers is not necessary if you don't have camps, that is true. That's kind of where I was going with the random spawning bit. A camp would then be a place where it is safe to med and pull to instead of waiting on a specific spawn. But with your idea, it would make more sense to keep moving.
Pharming and camping is an indication that there is a serious lack of content. I would not defend it. It is OK when you have pharm camps as an option to get something. But when there is no other alternative to pharm/camping then the game devs are lazy.
Greetings
Speaking as a very casual player, i must say camping/farming a certain mob can be fun and rewarding. Static spawns with a decent item drop have given me a fun playtime in the past, but it depends largely on the "good behaviour" of the player base.
I, for example, have been farming a lot of mamoth hide cloaks/leggings in everfrost as a lowbie Necro. The mob in question gave a decent exp (conning from yellow to green) and a nice item to sell or use on alts. It has always been a favourite camp/farm spot for me in times where i couldn't find a group on other alts. I simply logged in the necro, killed the mob and logged back out to lfg again on another toon or do some crafting. Technically, i didn't hold the camp as i wasn't in the room or couldn't respond to campchecks. Most of the time if i happen to log back in and was greeted by another player or group we solved the matter in a civilized manner. If you have outlevelled the campspot and didn't have a specific need for a certain (quest)item you leave the camp to those who are in the appropriate lvl range. If people stick by this "good behaviour", there is nothing wrong with a static spawn and its rewards.
That being said, I am also a huge fan of random loot tables on non named mobs. Even the smallest chance of a decent drop makes an otherwise sligthly boring experience run more exciting.
Greetings
I have an idea, how aboutt here a certain named mob that holds a certain item, but can spawn anywhere in a certain part of the map, but to big for one grp to camp everything and consists of multiple "camps" so you can be exping the way your suppose to be by getting the valued exp you want to lvl up to gte better gear and the uncommon/rare chance of seeing this Named with an uncommon/rare chance of getting his best item, but always gives you something kinda like he can Flowing Black Silk Sash, or crappy 1hs weapon lol.
In order to limit farming lets change the loot category (no-drop, lore etc) based on the level of the player that killed it.
Let's say you are max level, you need an enduring-breath item for an upcoming raid. You could do a camp you are obviously over-powered for, like Hadden, for the no-drop version of the enduring-breath earring, but the item's category would change based on your level and not offer the regular tradeable version. This would fill your needs as a player but would limit you from becoming a farmer. This could help tradeable items retain their value, could influence playing or starting alts, would spread or limit wealth as people able to camp the tradeable version of an item was continually rolling over, and farmers who purposefully stayed within level range would be subject to competition.
I've never found a problem with people farming an item here and there. If a Level 60 wants to farm a Level 35 mob because they're interested in the value of an item it drops, that seems entirely reasonable. The problem, to me, is when a single player farms an item over and over and over... and over... and over, monopolizing a camp for long periods of time.
Randomization of placeholders (where a particular named can spawn from many placeholders instead of just one) and 'spreading the wealth' (having certain types of loot available in multiple locations rather than from just one particular named mob) may help combat the issue of excess farming.
I see where you are coming from, concerning static drops off of named mobs, like Hadden's fishbone earring. We remember that so well because eveyone wanted that clickie until later levels.
In my search for Hot Chili Oil by Dynasty Foods for my stir fry, I've repeatedly checked the "Asian Foods" section. There are other hot chili oils, but the one I find that adds flavor and heat is the one with tons of spices on the bottom to stir up and then stir into my wok. When I find it, I buy out the stock because it very rarely gets restocked and I always run out before the shelf life is even close.
Camping a randomly spawned mob in a static position is a lot like that to me. However, it is tedious and I always feel bad for others who want that chili oil, too. I thought that finding the fishbone earring on any Barbarian at the fishing village sounded about perfect, because if you take that to the dungeon level, then you will find sweeping the dungeon a worthwhile endeavor.
In WoW, there was a chance that any creature might have a blue item. It's why I never left a corpse unchecked and I've found many blue items over the years because of that. They are always tradeable and usually pretty good, but not spectacular, which is exactly what I expect of a blue item in that game. I mention this because there is a system in place to reward taking on regular spawns. There are also games in which there are no special rewards on any named spawns and I'm okay with that, too. All crafted gear is just fine by me, even if it isn't very realistic. If we were to go realistic, then we'd have a Skyrim looting system in an MMORPG and gear would soon become meaningless in the flood of items.
If we were to see a game where you are challenge-adjusted to a zone when you enter it, where drops are distributed throughout the population and the challenges weren't static, I think it would be a lot more fun. You'd have pulling areas, where groups can rest a bit and bring the fight to them. They wouldn't be entirely safe, though!
Reinventing the wheel is not my goal. I do see little adjustments that would make a huge difference and bring back risk vs. reward. High level camping is no risk and should have no reward, regardless of whether you "need" the item. If it is that dear to you, then you should purchase it from someone who earned it - for the price they deem is worth the risk they put into it and balanced with whether they actually need the item.
Personally, out of the ideas mentioned so far, I would be much more in favor of the multiple placeholder/spread loot directions.
Challenge adjustment...I honestly think that would be a game breaker for me. Although, I don't think there is much of a chance for that, since there has already been mention of different mob level ranges in the same zone to try to even out the population and reduce the likelyhood of dead zones. One example of this being a dungeon with level 10 mobs in the first part, then (just throwing a level out here, I don't remember exactly what was said) level 25 mobs deeper in.
I can see where the idea of changing the no-drop/BoP status of an item based upon the level of the player who killed it is coming from...however that still might not stop people from selling loot rights (depending on how that is handled in Pantheon) or, since there will be consequences for dying (including possibly xp loss) someone just killing themselves to remain at the max level they can be to farm an area. I just don't see it being an effective solution unless there are a lot of failsafes built in, some of which would seem to be against some of the core tenets of Pantheon.
Xaruk said:This is kinda what i was saying, have like a Place that multiple camp sites and lets say there a "Crazed Librarian", and a Librarian as its "PH" but there like 3 of them far enough apart so you cant camp but one at a time and the camp be big enough for you do actually get exp at the same time so you are getting the levels that you need to progress and stop a person from preventing others from making a monopoly out of a certain item, granted i do understand that this would be hard to do for a lot of targets, but lets try to make it at least doable, i understand that something there going to be like a specific orc camp or something that only spawns a particalar Orc Cheiftain that might be for an epic or a crucial piece for a particular class or something like that. which im fine with but the items that can be sold would be nice to see that it cant be prema camped. they could make it like in ToFS where you just get lucky and when killing a mob spawns one right after it and thats how you get him that way he is kinda like the global "drop" and there for no real camp at all.I've never found a problem with people farming an item here and there. If a Level 60 wants to farm a Level 35 mob because they're interested in the value of an item it drops, that seems entirely reasonable. The problem, to me, is when a single player farms an item over and over and over... and over... and over, monopolizing a camp for long periods of time.
Randomization of placeholders (where a particular named can spawn from many placeholders instead of just one) and 'spreading the wealth' (having certain types of loot available in multiple locations rather than from just one particular named mob) may help combat the issue of excess farming.
Obliquity said:This has been Proven untrue espeically in EQ1, ive seen someone kill the Named, get there caster to bind them in that location, port out, parcel it to a mule, gate and repeat many times while selling it on that mule all while camping it. i hope this doesnt happen, but ive seen it done many times.You risked your time by farming or camping for items and that is the biggest thing you have to risk in MMO's.
Lore items make it so a single player cant keep camping that item.
I for one enjoyed the camps in EQ1. You step into LGuK and shouted "Add me to FBSS list". When you were first in line you got a tell so you could make your way down to the camp. You got there and waited for your turn to get an invite. While you waited you had fun chatting it up with the group there. COMMUNITY!!!
Koreno said:Yes it used to be that way, but i am currently on a TLP server in EQ1, and let me say it isnt anymore i that's why im against this, i wish it was though to be completely honest. im sure there are people out there that would still do it this way tohugh dont get me wrong but the bad apples are the ones that will ruin it when they can. i just want i guess what you would call equal opportunity for anyone in the correct location of a zone like say how the undead ghoul lord, magus, executioner, assassin in Lguk are all fairly close to each toher instead of it being that particular spawn to pop that particular named you can make it to where all those spawns can either be a ph for them or have it to where they can insta pop the named that way it harder for someone to camp the site. trying to allude the possibility for farming an item that might be very valuable for a stock of classes like the FBSS was to melee dps classesI for one enjoyed the camps in EQ1. You step into LGuK and shouted "Add me to FBSS list". When you were first in line you got a tell so you could make your way down to the camp. You got there and waited for your turn to get an invite. While you waited you had fun chatting it up with the group there. COMMUNITY!!!
A simpler 2-fold (potential) solution.
1. While there only be *one* Haddon's earring, that doesnt mean that there should not be 'Krigos Ring' and a 'Eyepatch of zelos' which do the same thing (though perhaps very slightly differently). It doesn't even mean there should not be a 'Devole's Earring' which does almost the same as Haddon's. That way there are multiple items that achieve the same effect - though perhaps using different ways to do it. One may be dispellable by 'grey' magics, one may last less time but is tough to dispel, another may have a long duration but cannot be used more than once per day. This reduces the possiblility of the *best* or even *only* item of a certain type being perma-camped.
2. Move drops from being predominantly 'items' towards 'components' that can be used to make these items (by crafters). So here, Haddon's Earring is a crafted item and needs 3 componenets. Once is magical essence (found from many places and purified by a wizzy or summoner). One is a piece of 'pristine ivory' which can be got ('rare' drop) from any walrus or whale over level 25. Higfher the level, higher chance. Last is a 'whale-bone glue' made by a brewer, poison maker or potion maker. It requires Brewing (200), Poison_making (175) or Potion_Making (150) and needs 5 components. These are things like 'bones', 'animal cartilage', a few herbs and a sap from a tree. none is more than 'uncommon' and you need a fair number of them. Put together and you make it using Jeweller (220) or Bone_crafter (160). Needs a scroll of 'Water Breathing' to be enchanted together.
you get the idea...
Riahuf22 said:Koreno said:Yes it used to be that way, but i am currently on a TLP server in EQ1, and let me say it isnt anymore i that's why im against this, i wish it was though to be completely honest. im sure there are people out there that would still do it this way tohugh dont get me wrong but the bad apples are the ones that will ruin it when they can. i just want i guess what you would call equal opportunity for anyone in the correct location of a zone like say how the undead ghoul lord, magus, executioner, assassin in Lguk are all fairly close to each toher instead of it being that particular spawn to pop that particular named you can make it to where all those spawns can either be a ph for them or have it to where they can insta pop the named that way it harder for someone to camp the site. trying to allude the possibility for farming an item that might be very valuable for a stock of classes like the FBSS was to melee dps classesI for one enjoyed the camps in EQ1. You step into LGuK and shouted "Add me to FBSS list". When you were first in line you got a tell so you could make your way down to the camp. You got there and waited for your turn to get an invite. While you waited you had fun chatting it up with the group there. COMMUNITY!!!
Thats too bad. But as for those bad apples, there are way to deal with them. Thats what communities do.
One idea might be to make items drop at a fixed rate but not from just 1 named creature. Maybe a 1% drop rate from a named and a .01% drop rate from any creature in the dungeon.
Or maybe have the named spawn anywhere and not just is a static spot in the same room every time.
Riahuf22 said:This has been Proven untrue espeically in EQ1, ive seen someone kill the Named, get there caster to bind them in that location, port out, parcel it to a mule, gate and repeat many times while selling it on that mule all while camping it. i hope this doesnt happen, but ive seen it done many times.
Make it so players can only be bound in the cities.
Make it so players can only be bound in the cities.
Yes if you could do this tht would work, not saying what you said was a bad idea cuase making things lore is a great way to stop it from being prema camped by one player, just would like to have something else in play to make it to where everything runs smoothly and stops people from camping a huge section of a zone or a particular spot in a zone just so they can drop a chunk of cash in there pocket and repeat again.
Another way to stop Pharming is on the first kill you get a decent exp. but on second and so forth on, give very little exp. So that way players will stop pharming. Alot of times players who wants fast level, when they find a spot where mobs give good exp. they pharm that stop just to level. Cut some of the exp after the first kill, might just stop it.
Riahuf22 said:
Make it so players can only be bound in the cities.
Yes if you could do this tht would work, not saying what you said was a bad idea cuase making things lore is a great way to stop it from being prema camped by one player, just would like to have something else in play to make it to where everything runs smoothly and stops people from camping a huge section of a zone or a particular spot in a zone just so they can drop a chunk of cash in there pocket and repeat again.
EQ you would see it once players reached max level they would go farm/camp for twink items, profit or just for something to do.
Still cost time tho.
Having plenty of content plus good itemization will help : )
I guess you could also make lots of gear every similair to each other but make them class specific too, that why you dont go to like Lguk for like an FBSS for all melee classes but go to LGuk for the FBSS that would be lets say mnk only and another belt close to it with similair stats but its in Sol A.
could make it a lil bit harder for people to camp it but who knows it could work? EQ references sry but only way i could explain what i wanted to say
Larirawiel said:Pharming and camping is an indication that there is a serious lack of content. I would not defend it. It is OK when you have pharm camps as an option to get something. But when there is no other alternative to pharm/camping then the game devs are lazy.
Greetings
Agreed. Might be necessary for specific quest items and the like but not for other drops (i.e. armor, weapons, sellable items).
Farming and camping happens when you allow lazy people to be lazy.
When there's an item someone wants that sells for around for 10,000 platinum pieces, some will go camp something they can kill 10 times for a 1000pp drop while watching the TV. Some will go kill something real tough for a 10,000pp drop they can trade. Some will actually go after the level-appropriate encounter that delivers the level-appropriate item.
The first option (the farm) is the one that denies all the level-appropriate people that content for 10 kills, or however many the farm session takes. And skews the economy.
The first option can easily be avoided by not having loot drop from kills that are not level-appropriate. "Oh, but, freedom-sandbox-open-world-blah-blah-blah". *shrug* How about if you want that low-level loot you mentor down to help someone of that level and they have a shot at it too?
I'm confident devs could come up with systems to stop camping, farming, power-levelling, twinking and all that emergent, but bad (imho) behavior.