Guards are meant to guard, and therefore they should protect the gates.
But as with all NPCs, they should have different personalities. Some guards may be braver than others, some may be chicken and run at the first sign of trouble...and still others bullies who are looking for a fight.
Faction should play in it also. lf you are an ally, they should be more likely to step in (unless they are craven etc). If you are not an ally, it should depend on who is manning the gate. You may or may not get help! But if Sgt DoRight is at the post, you would get help.
I think don't think it should be an auto smack down on the mobs, though. It should have to be in the end, a melding of NPC personality, your level, and your faction with that guard detail.
Faction should count for sure.
I imagine if guards, guarding a city gate, would see you come running with something which scares them, they would simply slam shut the gates and leave you to your own mercy.
If they like you(faction), and they are not risking their own life (something about con), they will help you out, but as other people has suggested it should cost you a favour somehow. Maybe you will have to run a few errins for them to restore a faction hit or something like that.
ladyshaiana said:Feyshtey said:I like this.
It'd be interesting also if they were to change their behavior based on how often you rely on them. If you consistently pull garbage to the gaurds, maybe they get fed up and say, "Nope. You deal with it this time."
I totally agree!
Guard Filstin says "I've helped you enough! You're on your own...Learn to pull, noob!"
LMAO, but yeah, I support this idea!
I like the idea of guards helping the people but also being more 'smart' about it. IE, everything Evoras said. I would like to point out that Perception or other verbal que's from the guards would help people understand the consequences of their actions.
It could be of interest on a pvp or harder difficulty server (if such exists) or at a specific race's capitol the guards act differently. IE, guards will kill creatures getting too close to the town, but, if a person is fighting another creature the only thing they do is 'cheer' you to fight harder but don't help you. (ogre?) If you die, well, that's that.
-Todd
Kilsin said:If you aggro a mob and run to a city or town should the guards react and help you or is it your problem to deal with?
I think it should vary based on the city or town and what the people there are like. Some cities, for instance a holy city would likely assist but a crime ridden corrupt town the guards may sit idly by or demand payment to save you.
Kilsin said:If you aggro a mob and run to a city or town should the guards react and help you or is it your problem to deal with?
I would say that those guards of your home city should help you with any creature that is attacking you. The guards of another city though? I'd say they should only help you if the creature attacking you is hostile to the residents of that city. If we take Freeport for example. A resident of Freeport engages a Fire Beetle, is horribly outmatched and runs to the guards who then see you in distress and attack the Fire Beetle. An Elf, by the same token attacks a Snake, is outmatched, and runs to the guards who do nothing because the snake is not threatening any Freeport citizen. A Halfing, however, attacks an Orc Pawn and runs to the guards. Freeport has been fighting the orcs for generations so the guards make every effort to kill any Orcs they see, helping the Halfing in the process.
This then brings up a gameplay opportunity of changing your citizenship which itself could have benefits and consequences.
This could be an opportunity to incorporate the advanced scripting AI. The guards could learn your behavior and, if you rely on them too much within a given amount of days, there could be a probability associated with event of them helping you weighted both by faction and frequency of use. Basically, if you abuse the guards to kill your mobs for you, it become increasingly less likely that they'll help you then next time and @Kilsin will laugh in the shadows with his GM invis... and then train the banks.
Yes, within the constraints of Faction or Reputation of course they should help.
Obviously if your KOS they should kill you first, then the mob. And the more AI you could apply to it the better.
They would need to keep the bad guys out of town, likeing you or not... thats there job.
I agree with a lot of the comments here.
There are a few different perspectives to consider. What needs to be considered is the reaction from all invovled including the npc/creature chasing the player.:
In my opinion a guard should engage any creature being pulled (if it would be hostile towards those in the protected area) into the area they're protecting or if it is a creature they do not wish to engage then they raise an alarm, close the gates etc.
This leads me onto thinking that if a creature is pulled into a protected zone or area of civlisation and that creature overcomes the player and guards, then that creature does not just turn and flee back to the place it normally resides in. A hostile creature could go on a bit of a rampage and chase citizens, take out player friendly npcs, vendors etc. This would then have quite an impact on other players in that zone if they were needing to interact with npc's in that area.
This then could be abused however and be a form of griefing, players pulling creatures into the zone just for laugh and hindering other players enjoyment?
Or it could be looked at as an opportunity for players in the area to pull together and defend that area.
All in all, there's a lot to be considered. Good luck VR!
<~Vaultarn Stormborn~>
Vaultarn said:I agree with a lot of the comments here.
There are a few different perspectives to consider. What needs to be considered is the reaction from all invovled including the npc/creature chasing the player.:
- Guards demeanor towards the player
- Guards temperament in general
- Guards experience/morale
- Guards reaction to a creature being pulled passed them into the area they're guarding, will they ignore it until it is a danger to the populous? Even if they don't like the player would they still engage the creature if it enters the area being guarded, or do they just not care enough? If the creature is only nearby and not entering the protected area, they may not leave their post.
- The npc/creatures reaction to the environment. Will they chase even into a populated area, are they a mindless creature or in a rage? Will they stop before entering the protected area and turn back due the sight of civilisation.
In my opinion a guard should engage any creature being pulled (if it would be hostile towards those in the protected area) into the area they're protecting or if it is a creature they do not wish to engage then they raise an alarm, close the gates etc.
This leads me onto thinking that if a creature is pulled into a protected zone or area of civlisation and that creature overcomes the player and guards, then that creature does not just turn and flee back to the place it normally resides in. A hostile creature could go on a bit of a rampage and chase citizens, take out player friendly npcs, vendors etc. This would then have quite an impact on other players in that zone if they were needing to interact with npc's in that area.
This then could be abused however and be a form of griefing, players pulling creatures into the zone just for laugh and hindering other players enjoyment?
Or it could be looked at as an opportunity for players in the area to pull together and defend that area.
All in all, there's a lot to be considered. Good luck VR!
<~Vaultarn Stormborn~>
Very good thoughts ---- those would be some very good considerations
Factions are very important to me, almost as much as immersion. If gnolls or skeletons or whatever were able to enter a city even once, in any way, they would be trying to enter more often. If a given city is clear of gnolls and never has gnolls inside of its city walls, it is quite evident to me that pretty much any gnoll that tries to enter is either killed or booted from the city in some way. If I train a couple gnolls to the city gates, and the guards let me train them right into the center of town, it would seriously break immersion for me.
I think we can look at this a slightly different way. Instead of asking "Would the guards come save the PC", maybe we should ask "What is the faction standing of the character and the train mobs in relation to the guard"? If guards normally prosecute gnolls, they would do so even if I had bad faction with them. If my faction was bad enough, they would go after the me as well. If I have good faction, they would not attack me. However, if they have bad faction with the gnolls, they should go after them no matter what.
One idea that was brought up is the idea that training guards could cause you to lose (temporarily maybe) faction with the guards. This is an interesting idea that could work very well, but would require some precise execution imo.
I'd expect the guards at a city entrance to attack anything hostile regardless of the danger to themselves. How else does a guard get entrusted with the protection of a city's perimeter, but to be among the bravest of their kin? And if I'm a city's guard captain, then I want strong, brave faces on my front lines so that outliers know that my people are a force to be reckoned with.
If the outside threat is so severe... http://www.aidedd.org/dnd/images/basilisk.jpg -- If this thing is coming at their front gates, the guards aren't going to consider who's being chased. Whether their faction is low, high, or wherever -- the threat they bring with them is of much greater concern... Let the guards sound an alarm to alert others of the present danger to the city, and engage the threat. If the threat is so strong, then maybe they engage it defensively where all they aim to do is keep it distracted while waiting for backup.
But, I'd not see them stand idle or abandon their posts (flee) for any reason... For an appointed guard to do that in such an important area (a city's front gates), the punishment could very well be execution, so they'd might as well stick around and engage the threat (they'll be facing death one way or the other).
And whoever brought such a significant threat to the city (trained) in the first place... Perhaps that would be worth a faction hit~
For more minor threats, reactions could scale according to player faction and mobs' aggressiveness (this, particularly in areas outside city limits -- outlying guard towers, for example, where guards may be less inclined to get involved). I'd expect, though, for city guards to prioritize public safety over personal grudges.
Very nice points Vaultarn. Mostly agree with them, particularly the rampaging scenario.
Vaultarn said:
This then could be abused however and be a form of griefing, players pulling creatures into the zone just for laugh and hindering other players enjoyment?
Or it could be looked at as an opportunity for players in the area to pull together and defend that area.
All in all, there's a lot to be considered. Good luck VR!
<~Vaultarn Stormborn~>
However, I think even the basic situation can be used to corupt the system as well. In the case where there is a named mob or a boss for example. Some group members or PCs could pull trash for the guards to kill, while another group member pulls the tougher mob as the trash is being neutralized by NPCs. What to do then?
I think that if mobs are deemed manageable for a PC there might be some alternative outcome in the form of increased faction hits to the PC (except in the case of grass snakes, fire beetles, etc.). Obviously, if your a solo level 1 PC and accidently pull a level 10 mob there could be different adjustments made in the form of more leniency.
Also, I think the level of threat a mob presents to the guards and village should be taken into account as well. A dragon should inspire more overall fear than a group of zombies. And the NPCs should respond accordingly. If threat leads to casualties in a town and PCs were instrumental in pulling that beast to town the faction hit should reflect the damage done.
I'm of the opinion that guards should assist, but maybe have a consequence to it where the guards shake down the PC for endangering the town/city/settlement. Maybe have it be on a scaling basis for the level. Say 1sp per mob slain by the guards. If you can't pay the fine then you get thrown in jail or something. Just a thought.
When I played a necro, I made a lot of money killing the guards of the various cities. When I attacked a guard in Kelethin, the guard immediately ran off and came back with friends instead of standing his ground and fighting me. It enhances the world that there are cultural differences between the races that are reflected in the behavior of the guards. Maybe the guards in some cities would be more helpful with npc trains than the guards in other cities. In some cities they could be more team oriented and in other cities they would have more bravery/boldness. On a side note, killing hobit guards was the most fun because the goblins in Runnyeye Citadel learned to like me and had a bank and merchants.
OakKnower said:Very nice points Vaultarn. Mostly agree with them, particularly the rampaging scenario.
Vaultarn said:
This then could be abused however and be a form of griefing, players pulling creatures into the zone just for laugh and hindering other players enjoyment?
Or it could be looked at as an opportunity for players in the area to pull together and defend that area.
All in all, there's a lot to be considered. Good luck VR!
<~Vaultarn Stormborn~>
However, I think even the basic situation can be used to corupt the system as well. In the case where there is a named mob or a boss for example. Some group members or PCs could pull trash for the guards to kill, while another group member pulls the tougher mob as the trash is being neutralized by NPCs. What to do then?
I think that if mobs are deemed manageable for a PC there might be some alternative outcome in the form of increased faction hits to the PC (except in the case of grass snakes, fire beetles, etc.). Obviously, if your a solo level 1 PC and accidently pull a level 10 mob there could be different adjustments made in the form of more leniency.
Also, I think the level of threat a mob presents to the guards and village should be taken into account as well. A dragon should inspire more overall fear than a group of zombies. And the NPCs should respond accordingly. If threat leads to casualties in a town and PCs were instrumental in pulling that beast to town the faction hit should reflect the damage done.
I agree, it could certainly be used as a exploit if it isn't setup in a way to stop that happening or having a big enough deterant in place. I think it could be done in a way to make it not worthwhile and therefore would not be able to be exploited.
In regards to your first point of pulling the adds to the guards and then only having to deal with the boss. I think the simple solution to that is that the mobs in that encounter are linked. So if the adds are pulled to the guards to help kill them while other players fight the Boss away from the guards as soon as the guards engage the adds, all those mobs that are linked are then unable to give xp or loot to the players. In that way you couldn't do that and still get a reward for using the guards as an exploit.
I think there could be another mechanic considered when players are pulling mobs to the guards with the intention of causing mayhem in the civilised area. Instead of a faction reduction there could be a monetary charge, a Guard Assistance Fee (GAF) charged against the player. Perhaps this could be something that is put in place after x number of times this happens, not on the first instance. The fee could be then based on your level and the creatures level. This then means the governing body of that civilised area is taking steps to deter this kind of behaviour. The fee could also mean that the player is unable to access any of the services in the civilised area, vendors, banks etc. Another thought is to have the services still available but there is a monetary surcharge that needs to be paid to access those services or the prices of vendors items increase by a percentage of the GAF.
Totally agree in regards to creatures causing different reactions depending on the level of threat. From the Guards engaging with the creature, to them raising an alarm and all the npc's head indoors. For larger areas they could even raise an alert to call a more powerful NPC to come and help at the gates. I'm sort of thinking of Warhammer Age of Reckoning here where there would be assualts on the civilised areas and heros of that faction would eventually emerge and work at defending their home. I think that would be a great experience.
Valor and virtue ride with me, my blade defends the helpless,
my might upholds the weak, my words speak only truth,
my wrath undoes the wicked!
<~ Vaultarn Stormborn ~>
Kilsin said:Lol, nice replies. :)
Should they protect a stranger, though, they would be on low wages, some would have families to feed and provide for, why risk their lives on some random adventurer that is a stranger to them?Should they charge you a fee?
Would it depend on the mob attacking whether they run, stand idle or fight?Faction or reputation system comes into play?
There is many things to consider in my opinion, I wouldn't want the guard to kill everything I dragged over to them, at some point they should just point and laugh as you fail to learn you lesson or pull something too dangerous. ;)
1. They should protect the stranger if the strangers faction is greater than amiably, however not consistently (more on that in a second).
2. They shouldn't charge a fee because they're guards, they've sworn a duty to protect the city and it's people, or die trying.
3. Goes in line with the die trying...they buy some time for you to live while you escape into the city.
4. Faction should come into play. If you're amiably, is it possible to have a random number generator like random 1/1000 and if the number is > than lets say 800, it helps you at amiably. If it's less an emote goes off "The guard looks the other way, maybe if you were more favorable in the XX factions eyes". As your faction improves, you decrease the random number required for a guard to assist you, all the way up to ally. At that point they always assist.
If the guard kills the NPC, you get nothing, no faction or exp, regardless of the % of health it starts assisting.
That being said, the guards should be focused on the faction of the creature entering the city first, then go through the above steps.
Edit: Typos, and updates.
