agreed...and different people will be grabbed by different things. Which is why, while I am not vehemently opposed to a 'tutorial phase' that might explain some things about how the game works to people who want it, if there is one included, there should be an obvious, in your face method to bypass it. Maybe right after character creation, before you even enter the world, "Would you like to go through the tutorial? This will explain some basics of how Pantheon (and maybe your class?) works. " What it should NOT do is provide any sort of experience advantage, or anything more than basic guidance on what to do next. Something like listing a few options about ways to start (crafting, killing, exploring, etc) and maybe give a prod to the social aspect (typing /1 will send your message to the zone chat, try saying hello!).
I for one would skip this, almost nothing turns me off more than a ton of popups and flashy noises every time you use a skill for the first time. For me, it's a turn-off just as much as Quest Markers hovering over NPC heads (which, more than once, have made me immediately log off of an MMO and never come back). I can understand why some people would desire a tutorial, though, especially some people who have never played an MMO before.
This may be somewhat tangential, but I wanted to voice a thought that I've been having each time I check out this thread.
I don't think this game is targeted for first time MMOers. And I don't say that with scorn or negativity. Not at all. I think Pantheon is taking a diferent approach than many big name games that have come out in the last five years in that it's targeting a specific audience. Most of the features will be geared towards that audience, those "old school" MMOers who want a more immersive experience, the generally older and more mature crowd that truly desires a challenge and a more social community.
Aradune has said many times that he believes that the prospective crowd for Pantheon will be bigger than intended, and I wholeheartedly agree. There are many younger gamers who may simply not have been old enough to experience and appreciate that first generation of MMO. They may find Pantheon really scratches an itch they didn't even realize they had! Perhaps there is a large group of end-game raiders who simply ended up in that boat because their game of choice didn't provide the challenge anywhere else. Maybe they'll really love Pantheon!
But, because Pantheon does have a target crowd, I think it's important to accept the fact that the game may not have everything that people outside of that target crowd wants. And that's okay.
To tie this in to the topic at hand, I think it would be kind of... surprising to have a very in depth tutorial. I would find it quite jarring considering our game tenets if doing anything for the first time triggered a pop up (i.e. "You used a skill for the firs time!"). I just don't think that's in line with what Pantheon is trying to be about. It's about exploration, adventure, freedom, choice... So let us have those things, from level 1.
Will that be something new and perhaps startling for people used to games that slowly ween you onto game mechanics? Yep. Will it give those same players a true taste of what Pantheon is? Yep yep yep.
I'm not waving a sign shouting for no tutorial at all. But I would like to see something subtle. Perhaps as you start, a suitable mentor-type NPC (think the typical "guide" archetype like Gandalf or Brom from Eragon) calls out to you. Don't wanna do the tutorial? Don't talk to that guy. Want a bit of guidance? Go have him help you through a few levels with a brief "newbie quest" chain. Don't notice the guy at all and skip past him then complain about being lost and confused? ....I'm sorry m'dear but I don't think you understand what Pantheon is all about.
From the start, the game should be open. No starter 'island' or area. It should play like EQ1, except with tutorial help/guidance to teach first time player how to navigate the UI, communicate, and find the bank / level 1 spells / level 1 trainers / quest giver in starting town.
Then it should tell you 'From here on its up to you to expore and find points of interest! Good luck!"
Wanderica said:... So what then should Pantheon's starter area be? ...
The context of the game appears to be many different races brought to Terminus by/with the Celestials. As such, personally, I don't think race-specific starter areas are required from a lore perspective.
From here:
In addition to traditional fantasy races and classes, the world of Terminus has been formed from the ‘shipwrecked’ fragments of many different realms and worlds, bringing their unique civilizations and Celestial deities with them. It is into the current age of this wonderful and mysterious world that players will step foot for the first time. Realms long lost will be explored anew. Peoples and cultures striving to gain a foothold in this unfamiliar world will form alliances and vie for power.
However, I would like to see race-specific cities spread out around the world so that eventually, you can see what your race has produced or carved out of Terminus. I think the maps shown so far might support that, with the crowns?
Implementation issues regarding a shared starting area would be that on launch day/week/month, it would be quite busy. Fair enough, it would be busy, not always a bad thing, sometimes a bad thing. However, beyond that point in time, if all new characters DO share the same starting area(s) then that creates a persistent initial social environment. That's a good thing, if it's a design goal that the game promote social contact and grouping in a shared world.
Encounter locking, dynamic respawn rates, short perception ranges and short leashes can address many of the issues that a "crowded" starting area might present. The more players there are in an area/region, the faster respawn could be and the shorter percpetion and leashes could be, dynamically. Now, it doesn't have to be that way, I'm just pointing out there are elegant and simple technical solutions to some of the typical concerns often raised that other games have solved with multiple instance copies. Multiple instance copies of starter areas are ok too, provided they're full enough to, again, meet a design goal that promotes social content and grouping in a shared world.
X
For me, the challenge of the game should be in:
1) The mechanics of the game 2) Exploring the world, locating camps, dungeons, NPCs, and quests 3) Figuring out the trade skills system 4) Creating a social network
#4 is possibly the most important!
The challenge of the game should NOT be: 1) Learning how to move forward 2) Learning how to talk/speak/chat 3) Learning the UI 4) Turning on Auto-attack
We really should have some help for new players with these items. Also, maybe a gentle (gentle mind you) push towards their guildmaster.
My opinion.
Realistically, the 'minimum' needed is :
KEYBINDS:
Ensure they know WASD, jump, crouch, whatever movements
Ensure they know Character window, Inventory, how to equip wpn etc
Ensure they know chat options (include scope, ie OOC=zone-wide, 'say' = close by etc)
Ensure they know 'hail', 'consider' and how to talk to NPCs
CLASS START:
Simple point at your 'Class Master'
These are easily 'wrapped' into a short 'starter narrative' to grab the players. There is no more needed immediately. Any further 'information' can be added *as* the character needs it. Eg when you get to the level where you gain 'meditate' ability (or whatever) have an arrow show this new icon on your UI and mention the 'helper/reference/info icon in the corner of the UI' just avoid any notion of front-loading all the 'tutorial' stuff at the start where it isnt really needed. Leave the bits until the player needs them.
I agree that the starting tutorial should be minimal and get you going. Most people have been texting now since they were 6 and are familiar with a keyboard, I took a typing class in High School, lol. I would like to see multiple starting areas that you can select from at character creation. You start by creating a character from their awesome and comprehensive character creation tool, (wink, wink) then are asked where you would like to start. Up comes a list, based on what your race is (or not, depends on what is decided), there is a brief description of the area, and you are shown where it is on the world map. You can easily coordinate with guildies/ friends/family on where you want to begin, and everyone can meet there at creation for the festivities to begin. I don't really want to be led from hub to hub or be required to complete said quest to be able to leave an area. I want to be able to head out and get exp, and get myself killed if I deserve it for going too far afield. My 2c :)
If the starting cities are of a significant size, which they should be since that is the focal point of your entire race, your first level or so can honestly be done all within the safety of the city, regardless of your class. You don't need this idiotic exclamation points above important NPCs heads nor any separate 'beginner isle' gimmick. The game can first load up with a flyover of the city with perhaps some background text about your race and their history finishing up with what class you chose for yourself. The camera then ends up right on you as you stand before the doors of your guildhall. Give me that tattered note telling me who I'm to talk to first then let me go. Again, this game isn't for those people who have never played MMOs before. We already know so much about how this game will work before even seeing it, we do not need to be hand-held.
People keep saying that this game will not be for people who have never played MMOs before. Why? My first MMO was EQ1, and that was probably on the same level as Pantheon will be. EQ classic was my favorite of all time. Why can't new players play Pantheon? Makes no sense to me. I do not think anyone should need maps, or hand holding, or exclamation points. That said, a brand new player might need help with the basics. Movement, chatting, UI, and combat. Nothing to extreme, maybe 3 minutes worth of help. This should be able to be by-passed by anyone who is not new to the genre. No reason to lose a brand new player to something as simple and silly as "you are young, and therefore not worthy of our game".
Come on folks, I want a spiritual successor of EQ1 like everyone else, but even in those days I was able to buy the guide at the book store.
Just a couple minutes to go over the basics for new players. If they then decide to run up to a guard, hail them, and then auto-attack them, well... thats their problem.
How many "new" players that don't know the likes of WASD and Space to jump are honestly going to be joining? In 1999 that was a lot.. in this day and age, not so much. 5% if that? How much development time should be taken from other things to accommodate 5% that could easily get answers to questions in general chat?
Mod Edit: Fixed issue for poster and removed double post. :)
I thought the Boat Ride that you started out on in EQ2 was pretty cool. You were able to complete a couple quests, purchase something, give somebody something and such. You were attacked by a Drake flying in over the ocean. It made quite an impression. I also thought the test you later had to take to be recognized as a member of your chosen class was great. The boat and the test is long gone now.
I remember in EQ when I started, I fell into Erudin and made a little cluck noise and well, there I was. Took me 2 days to find the boat that the Antonican Bard wanted me to deliver mail to Qeynos on. I felt pretty stupid when I discovered there was a Gem that led to the dock. Before the boat came I managed to get killed by a shark I was not able to leave alone.
I think maybe in Pantheon, they drop you in with two scrolls in a bag with a couple stale muffins and some cloudy creek water. A single text box opens up on the screen that tells you to look in your bag for the scrolls, how to do it, and that is it. One scroll has info on how the basics work, and another scroll to take to some person that is your trainer. The trainer could give you a few more insights and tell you that you probably do not have what it takes to survive and good luck. Out into the world you go with the huddled masses trying to help each other survive. I can just see all the confusing directions being given, and shouts for where is my trainer?, is there a bank?. Do bat wings do anything?, Oh the chaos would be so sweet.
Defector said: When I say tutorial, I mean pop up boxes and guided arrow over the ui showing you where to click and what to type. This can be an optional, defult on, for new character log in. An offline or pre character selection tutorial will be more developed effort, and less effective, then having it in world.
I really liked the EQ offline tutorial. I would replay it even after I was high level just becuase I liked it.
Wow, lots of opinions here. I'm not surprised to see so many opting for the EQ approach. To be honest, I'm not totally agains that way of doing things. I've been MMOing long enough now that I pretty much know my way around. There's absolutely no way that a game could recapture that "lost" feeling I had on my first MMO. It would last a day at most. By now, I know that the first thing I do is open up options, rebind all of my keys, and then set up my UI. From there, it's business as usual. I do want to clarify what I mean by tutorial. I didn't necessarily mean popups with tons of text explaining every new aspect of the game. That's usually one of the first things I turn off when setting up my UI, in fact.
Since so many here are so familiar with EQ, lets go from there. I don't want a hand-held sparkly path, rainbows and unicorns hopping through the forest type experience, but I do expect to be introduced to the weather system, the need to group, monster difficulty how to /con, and travel basics (boat locations, etc). How quests work in Pantheon should be included as well. No quest markers please, but the first quest should be obvious. My idea would be to speak to an NPC who sends you to a guard for directions on how to search for your guildmaster. Since you started with no weapon, then the guildmaster would "issue" you your first weapon based on your class. Ideally, I would want to start in a capital city. I think FFXI really got this part right. Simply being in one of the 3 major cities helped in SO many ways with lore and social activities. It felt immediately alive and busy. High level toons were common rather than rare to the newbie. People were hawking wares and setting up bazaars introducing the new player to trade mechanics. Groups were forming in town introducind the player to grouping mechanics. All of this, you got to see in the first 5 minutes of play. In newer games, it can take hours to see the actual game world because you're walled off in some "you're not tall enough to ride" section reseved for newbies.
I've thought about this since I started this thread, and I think the above might be the best way to go without compromising what Pantheon is supposed to be about. Leave the popups out, but have a help manual or compendium. You can even bind it to the F1 key by default, but it should be sectioned off into various help topics with pictures and advice for the new player. At the end, I'm with Thetawd on this. I think first impressions are everything, and I believe that many of you (although sincere in your beliefs) are in the minority with your desire for overly difficult and purposefully confusing beginnings to a game that is supposed to take years to play. EQ was a different time, and in 2018, a clunky first 10 levels is going to feel unfinished at worst, and underdevelopped at best. Thanks for all of the input though. Please keep it coming. I didn't realize there were so many views on the first 10 levels out there.
Wanderica said:I think first impressions are everything, and I believe that many of you (although sincere in your beliefs) are in the minority with your desire for overly difficult and purposefully confusing beginnings to a game that is supposed to take years to play. EQ was a different time, and in 2018, a clunky first 10 levels is going to feel unfinished at worst, and underdevelopped at best.
This is correct.
Look I'm here and have given money to this company because I want a more old-school EQ type experience. And by that, I mean I want a more difficult world to live in where people need to know how to play and be able to work together to survive and succeed. That does NOT mean I want the software itself to go back in time and be difficult to use or uninviting for new people.
The days of an MMO just dropping someone in the middle of nowhere with absolutely no idea what to do, how to issue commands, how to repurpose keys, how to communicate, etc are over. And for good reason. We have the technology to make it easy to learn HOW to play the game without making the game itself overly simplistic. I'm trusting in the developers to understand the difference, and I believe they can.
Put me in my racial city with a story who I am and where I come from and let me discover everything else .
By that I do not mean the knowledge "which key does what" - this should of course be explained . In the days when games were in boxes and not downloaded , there always was a key card explaining the principal commands (space for jump, a for attack, ooc for a broadcast etc) .
This should still be there in an electronic form .
But the computer commands are one thing and my virtual life in a new and strange world quite another thing altogether .
If the former needs explanation, I definitely don't want any explanations and hand holding about the latter .
Even social interactions are discovered very fast and very early if one is thrown in a truly challenging environment .
I bet everybody remembers "Orc hill LFM lvl 4-5" that resonated in Greater Faydark all the time . Yes we were already grouping and understanding the interest of it at level 4 in EQ .
I would like that Pantheon gives us time to learn our part of the world between 1-10 . And that means that a player doesn't fly from 1 to 10 in 1 hour . More like 2 to 5 days depending on the number of hours played daily .
A remark about the problem of players "new to MMO" . This race doesn't exist in the 21st century anymore.
oThe starting players of EQ in 1999 were composed to 90+% of people who had no clue about what an MMO was and to 10 % or less of people who had played UOL or Meridian .
This simply is no more the case today so that an MMO developper has no more to worry about an eventual extremely small minority of potential players who have never played an MMO .
For those (if they'll exist at all on Pantheon) it can be swim or drown ;)
Skycaster said:I thought the Boat Ride that you started out on in EQ2 was pretty cool. You were able to complete a couple quests, purchase something, give somebody something and such. You were attacked by a Drake flying in over the ocean. It made quite an impression. I also thought the test you later had to take to be recognized as a member of your chosen class was great. The boat and the test is long gone now.
I remember in EQ when I started, I fell into Erudin and made a little cluck noise and well, there I was. Took me 2 days to find the boat that the Antonican Bard wanted me to deliver mail to Qeynos on. I felt pretty stupid when I discovered there was a Gem that led to the dock. Before the boat came I managed to get killed by a shark I was not able to leave alone.
I think maybe in Pantheon, they drop you in with two scrolls in a bag with a couple stale muffins and some cloudy creek water. A single text box opens up on the screen that tells you to look in your bag for the scrolls, how to do it, and that is it. One scroll has info on how the basics work, and another scroll to take to some person that is your trainer. The trainer could give you a few more insights and tell you that you probably do not have what it takes to survive and good luck. Out into the world you go with the huddled masses trying to help each other survive. I can just see all the confusing directions being given, and shouts for where is my trainer?, is there a bank?. Do bat wings do anything?, Oh the chaos would be so sweet.
I think they will have starter cities in line with each character race, but I am loving what you wrote and intrigued by the idea of instant companionship and almost forced grouping that would be caused by the NEED for survival. A little chaos sounds hilarious though.
I think the maintheme I am reading throughout this post is that players don't want a hand-holding experience. They want an authentic one. The developement team has to consider not frustrating players with too little information as well. The key is in creating a balanced, authentic experience, that captures the imagination, excites the sense of adventure and promotes teamwork all at the same time. A tough job for even the best to perfect and initiate.
