tehtawd said:From this discussion I am going to really hope Brad makes a different server for those of us who have a low tolerance for death penalties. We just want to have fun, and we want a good challenge that makes us really get into the game and become engaged. I think the developers know the subjectiveness of the penalty, which is why the balancing act will be a very interesting one as beta's come out.
-Todd
I would really start to temper your expectations of different servers with different rulesets. Also, what you describe is yet another example of petitioning for Pantheon to be everything for everyone. Can't we just have this one game? There are countless MMOs with little or no death penalty. Can we please just leave Pantheon out of it?
There will be death penalty. Period. If there's not then the vast majority of us that are here because of a love for EQ/VG will be gone, and the target audience will be gone.
There has been a massive influx of people on these forums with playstyles and opinions contrary to the foundations in which Pantheon was founded. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, you are the minority, I'm sorry. I think rather than trying to change the direction of the game or the general sentiment about the tenants of Pantheon, you should consider whether this game is actually a fit for you. And that's not meant to be a dig or an insult.
@Shea
oh gawd! I forgot about the original PvP ruleset. I think upon your death the victorious player could loot all your plat and one of all the gear items you were wearing or holding.
I remember seeing people suddenly begin to become gradually and frantically naked while in a fight.
They knew they were going to die, they knew they could not win the duel and so started putting all their gear and waepons into their bags so that the victor would not be able to take their precious quested, and often best, item.
The purpose of the death penalty was not to make death better or more fun, it is to make the rest of the game amazingly exciting!
You typically only spend about 0.5% of your game time dead! (real stat!... ok not really real!)
Hey forums,
Lets not go and treat me like an outsider that needs to be cast away. There was a post earlier on page one which assumed I had never played Everquest. I played from EQ1's launch till mid 2005 and had some of my first (and best) moments of love for mmo's with Everquest. I'm not exactly a newb to death penalties, I also play P1999.
One of the reasons I am here is because of EQN which got cancelled and this is where I ended up after following the EQ developer trail. I want a difficult game that is rewarding to play. I know pantheon will have a death penalty. My hope is the death penalty is a slap on the wrist because I do not find death penalties rewarding-I feel this way even after reading pages of your posts and more. And because I actually do care about more than just myself ... It would be nice to have different servers (as Brad mentioned) for different rule-sets for the death penalty. That way nobody feels disenfranchised, abandonned etc.
If i'm asked to re-evaluate my choices, i'm going to say the same thing. The MMO's out there are too damn easy. I want a challenge and I think Brad's on the right path. We are all bound to get something we don't want and something we want out of Pantheon, that's how different peoples wants in a game are. What ends up happening is people just 'put up with it' in which case ... if the game offers me the difficulty I was searching for but a 'harsh death penalty', i'll have to put up with a death penalty I do not care for just like somebody might put up with it if the game doesn't offer player housing.
Much respect for those who took time to respond with your thoughts. I'm reading them, and I appreciate them. I think i've learned to respect the death penalty atleast 100% more than I did before, even if I don't personally like it.
-Todd
I have been and always will be in favor of a death penalty. I've played a lot of games in my years starting with Mud's, Meridian 59, UO, EQ, Vanguard, Aion, WoW and a ton more and I can honestly say some of my best memories come from games with death penalties. The risk of dieing and having to face those penalties always made me aware of my surrounding's and made for some of the most exciting moments of my gaming life so far.
For me with no death penalty I just don't get that extra rush when in the bottom of a dungeon somewhere and we get extra mob's everyone is low on health and mana and the last mob drops with everyone OOM. With no death penalty it's still kinda exciting but knowing if we did die we lose nothing but the amount of time it takes to run back just doesn't give me that rush and sense of danger.
The opinions above are just mine some people like the idea of a death penalty and some don't there is no wrong or right answer just what you personally like/enjoy.
Xinux said:I have been and always will be in favor of a death penalty. I've played a lot of games in my years starting with Mud's, Meridian 59, UO, EQ, Vanguard, Aion, WoW and a ton more and I can honestly say some of my best memories come from games with death penalties. The risk of dieing and having to face those penalties always made me aware of my surrounding's and made for some of the most exciting moments of my gaming life so far.
For me with no death penalty I just don't get that extra rush when in the bottom of a dungeon somewhere and we get extra mob's everyone is low on health and mana and the last mob drops with everyone OOM. With no death penalty it's still kinda exciting but knowing if we did die we lose nothing but the amount of time it takes to run back just doesn't give me that rush and sense of danger.
The opinions above are just mine some people like the idea of a death penalty and some don't there is no wrong or right answer just what you personally like/enjoy.
the reality is with deleveling you are only losing time too. the only difference, and thus the real question, is how much time should one lose?
some are arguing 10 hours of wasted time for a death, i am sure some want more.
upon consideration, i suppose with deleveling you are becoming weaker and thus will also be wasting the time of those around. so let us know if you are under 10% into the lower level range when we are looking for more so we can get someone that wont delevel to uselessness please.
the reality is with deleveling you are only losing time too. the only difference, and thus the real question, is how much time should one lose?
You are right it really comes down to time. Early EQ the amount of time lost made it so I would do my very best to not die WOW if I died meh whatever run back.
upon consideration, i suppose with deleveling you are becoming weaker and thus will also be wasting the time of those around. so let us know if you are under 10% into the lower level range when we are looking for more so we can get someone that wont delevel to uselessness please.
See that is where we differ I would never turn someone away just because they just got a new level. I've been with people who just joined the group and I was getting ready to leave and something happens and we wipe and they lost of a level I would usally end up staying to help them get it back cause that is just how I'am.
tehtawd said:... 8< snippy
Much respect for those who took time to respond with your thoughts. I'm reading them, and I appreciate them. I think i've learned to respect the death penalty atleast 100% more than I did before, even if I don't personally like it.
... 8< snippy
This ^^^ gives us, perhaps, an idea of what we are going to have to face (though here Todd played early EQ1, whereas 'new pantheon players' will likely NOT have) when Pantheon Launches. It is what Brad alluded to ion his Blog(s) when he discussed new players and our (us 'veterans') interactions with them.
On the plus side:
I actually think it will be easier to convince players that a death penalty ('Risk') is needed as the counterbalance to phat lewts ('reward')...
... once they are actually playing the game!
Being British, I am well versed in the art of whining/complaining. It is a national pastime ... one we proudly uphold. So please beleive me when I say that there is much social interaction and cameraderie to be gained bitching about death to your group-mates. Once people are grouped up, the rest follows:
1. DEATH is needed, it must be impactful and 'hated'.
2. Early GROUPING is essential to remove the sting of death!
3. Once the immediate sting is removed, it remains as a 'worry looming over your shoulder'
4. Now the Rewards are all the more sweet as you perceive potential death at every corner!
The 'trick' therefore is to ensure, by (almost) an means necessary that players are grouping as early as possible. It should be almost force-fed (as per children and their vegetables) at the earliest possible stage. If there were to be ANY 'tutorial quest' in the game, it would have 'GET INTO A GROUP' as step 2, 3, 4 and errr, almost every other step beyond. Only hardcore veterans should think about soloing as an 'acceptible' risk in all but low-con situations.
tehtawd said: Lets not go and treat me like an outsider that needs to be cast away...Much respect for those who took time to respond with your thoughts. I'm reading them, and I appreciate them. I think i've learned to respect the death penalty atleast 100% more than I did before, even if I don't personally like it.
Well said. It's hard not to feel overly defensive when some seemingly can't give an opposing opinion without beating yours down first.
I know I'm guilty of snapping back at people when they are overly biting in their 'critique' of my opinon.
Your ability to ride the storm says good things about you :)
That said: Wanting a weak death penalty is stupid, you idiot! ;^)
tehtawd said:What ends up happening is people just 'put up with it' in which case ... if the game offers me the difficulty I was searching for but a 'harsh death penalty', i'll have to put up with a death penalty I do not care for just like somebody might put up with it if the game doesn't offer player housing.
That's how I read your first post, and you're absolutely right to throw it on the forums as I'm sure it's just good for the development of the game to see people express their (differing) opinions. I think, if a game generally speaking is good enough to draw you in and make you want more, that a lot of people will put up with some things they don't necessarily agree with or like. In that sense I'm not too worried about the younger crowd that never played EQ or anything similar. If the game rocks, they'll stay and learn to bear some of the more gruelling facets (and some may even enjoy them, like us oldies). I'm not too worried about it myself either, there will be things I won't give a rat's behind about (meaningful housing comes to mind :D) but they hopefully will be just details in an otherwise wonderful world.
Xinux said:See that is where we differ I would never turn someone away just because they just got a new level. I've been with people who just joined the group and I was getting ready to leave and something happens and we wipe and they lost of a level I would usally end up staying to help them get it back cause that is just how I'am.
This is how I play, too.
No one I grouped with back in the day in EQ ever abandoned anyone under these circumstances. Time permitting, people were very helpful and considerate. Why spread resentment, when you can spread helpfulness and fun? (Not having BIS was also not a reason to deny access to a group - when I was playing at least. Min/max fascinates me, but why force others into that category? But I digress.)
I'm going to open by saying that I am an advocate of harsh death penalties. Not because I think they are fun... but because I think big lows are a component of making big highs. That is, if you take the extreme other direction, and say "there are never any lows!" in a game... then eventually, NOTHING will be a high. If everything is a degree of reward, then reward becomes *meh*.
I will also say that many of the best things that ever happened to me in EQ started with a death. I died at the bottom of a dungeon and met someone else sitting outside that same dungeon for instance - and we became friends after enduring the shared pain of retrieving our corpses long after both of us thought we would be asleep. Is it good that we decided to do that? Probably not. Did we both enjoy lots of in game time togehter after that? Yes.
Do I have a single story from a modern MMO like that? No.
I would also say this though... beyond all of that, I like things like harsh death penalties because I never want to feel NOTHING when I'm playing a game. In modern MMO's you are either in a situation of feeling reward (you are in a dungeon, etc...) or feeling nothing (you are safe). Or - at the absolute worst - you feel a little annoyed (I've never felt more than that about getting killed in a modern MMO) A harsh death penalty (in a world where you can die anywhere) means that you are always at risk... and that you always feel SOMETHING... even if that something is a small tinge of fear.
Nikademis said:tehtawd said:From this discussion I am going to really hope Brad makes a different server for those of us who have a low tolerance for death penalties. We just want to have fun, and we want a good challenge that makes us really get into the game and become engaged. I think the developers know the subjectiveness of the penalty, which is why the balancing act will be a very interesting one as beta's come out.
-Todd
I would really start to temper your expectations of different servers with different rulesets. Also, what you describe is yet another example of petitioning for Pantheon to be everything for everyone. Can't we just have this one game? There are countless MMOs with little or no death penalty. Can we please just leave Pantheon out of it?
There will be death penalty. Period. If there's not then the vast majority of us that are here because of a love for EQ/VG will be gone, and the target audience will be gone.
There has been a massive influx of people on these forums with playstyles and opinions contrary to the foundations in which Pantheon was founded. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, you are the minority, I'm sorry. I think rather than trying to change the direction of the game or the general sentiment about the tenants of Pantheon, you should consider whether this game is actually a fit for you. And that's not meant to be a dig or an insult.
Thank you Thank you Thank you...I couldnt agree more, my time on the forums has dramatically fallen simply because I am so sick of all these 'Lets make pantheon just like every other MMO".
I may get crapped on but dont care, we were PROMISED certain things from day 1, its in the tennants, its fundamental to the idea of Pantheon, but still we have all these post wanting just about every modern convienence of MMOs added into the game. You know what, we dont wnat the game to have a broad appeal..Its a NICHE game. If it becomes popular then GREAT but let it do it on its own, not kowtowing to the fly by night instant gratification MMO players that flock to the next big thing then bail after they PL to max level in a weekend and then sit around and cry about nothing to do.
Man, I sure hope Brad and team stick to their vision (and Brad loves his vision) because if the game gets made with most of the "ideas" floated around on the forums it will be nothing more than the next WoW clone.
tehtawd said: Devils advocates positions help further discussions.
They most certainly do. I have been in this forum for less than 2 months, and I must say that you are one of the most polite, positive posters that I have seen here. I appreciate everything you have to say Todd.
This thread (and others) have actually helped me better understand why I miss the death penalty so much. They have also helped me to understand just why I was so bored of all of those MMOs I spent thousands of dollars on over 15 years. For this alone, you deserve a gigantic THANK YOU!
Another way I look at it is in this example:
Playing online slot machines with credits (most given free) -- It is fun and somewhat rewarding when you win. However when I lose all the credits because I got too aggressive, I move on to a new one or something else because it really does not matter.
Versus playing live slot machines in Vegas with your own cash. -- It is really amazing when you win because you truly feel the pain if you lose. Your true emotions get involved because of the risk of losing something of real value to you.
Now, you might think this is a silly comparison, but if you think about it, makes a lot of sense. The experience you gain is of real value and to lose it stings and creates risk of potentially losing it again. It gets your emotions going which is what this is all about.
tehtawd said:
Hello forums,
...
The people I talked with about this feel (including myself) we would rather have a focus on challenging levels/fights/puzzles rather than the focus on … corpse retrieval, item loss, fighting for hours to regain lost xp and sometimes lost levels, and the thought of impending future deaths to repeat the same process … and having somebody tell you ‘because this is fun’.
...
I’m sorry if disagreeing with a majority of you really lands me in a fryer. But, I’m being very honest. I’ve never cared for death penalties, and the only reason I’m going to be playing Pantheon is for the lore and the promise the game will be ‘challenging’. I’ve seen too many fun games become easy and played far too many ‘easy’ games which promised to be challenging. I want a challenge. But I sure as hell don’t think there is something meaningful about death penalties and that’s the bottom line.
-Todd
Hi Todd.
Thanks for sharing your opinion when it stands in the face of so much oposition. I'd like to just add a couple of ideas as counterpoint.
Obviously death penalties are not neccessary to play any game (remove the penalty and keep playing the game) and any game could have challenging game play without a death penalty. The thing about the addition of having a death penalty along with challenging gameplay (IMO) is that a successful event has far more meaning than it otherwise would. It singularly puts the onus on acheivement rather than challenge (since we already have that). The meaning of the resulting experience and success is multiplied for the player and/or group. The acheivement resonates more significantly. This should result in more satisfying gameplay.
Also, limiting gameplay where players have the possibility of rushing through content having little concern about failure (in terms of time investment) is a good thing IMO.
Finally, the negatives of a death penalty don't have to be incredibly extreme but they should reflect an appropriate adjustment based on the failure for the player and to push for consideration of what is needed to succeed.
TBH, I think it would be cool to have a game where if your character died you would have to re-roll a new character from scratch.
tehtawd said: I'm with you sevens, I don't want another wow clone. I've played way too many and they are just too easy. A challenge isn't that hard to make. I know I'm on the opposite spectrum here, and I am certainly not going to appologize for how I feel, but you can confide in the fact my being here and posting isn't to ruin the game. Perspective is very important. Devils advocates positions help further discussions. If my post helps shape a discussion to in the end offer a better overall product, then I'm happy. I doubt the death penalty is something I alone am going to "ruin". Sevens, post more often. I like what you have to say. Its clear, to the point. And most importantly. HONEST. These are great qualities my friend. Sent via mobile -Todd
I dont see how you are "with" me, really dont. From every post I have ever seen of yours all you really want to do is bring in aspects of all the modern MMOs....Pets for healers so they can solo, no death penalty because when you die you already "Feel" bad about it blah blah blah. You are on the complete and opposite extreme of what I want in an MMO. In fact I was pretty unsure even why you were interested in Pantheon if you read the Tenets, the pantheon difference, the Faq etc etc, seem you are wanting mostly what Pantheon is not. Oh well, its just a wait and see now. If they stick to their vision and deliver an old school hard as nails mmo or just another run of the mill crapfest. I know that most here are going to say all I want is a carbon copy of EQ (not that that would be a bad thing) but thats not true, I want what I was promised...an old school mmo that is the spiritual successor of EQ and Vanguard. I am all for innovation as long as it does not lessen the core concepts of the game.