So, after participating in the Death Penalty thread again and reading the link that Dullahan provided from Wolfshead, I tried thinking of brianstorm ideas on how to bring a "harsh" death penalty into a new MMO, without making everyone but first generation MMO vets run away. I think having a harsh death penalty is absolutely necessary to the creation of a virtual world, but, don't get on edge yet - hear me out :).
Obviously, if you've read my post history, you'd know I'd be ok with a brutal exp penalty, but I get it, not everyone agrees with me, and how brutal I'd like the death penalty to be.
And, usually, the argument that I see consistently aganist a harsh death penalty is that the game/developers shouldn't implement it as new (younger) players that didn't experience first generation MMOs would be immediately turned off as new players hadn't experienced harsh death penalities and they would run from the game before being able to see it fully realized. Basically, the instant gratification crowd couldn't deal with that time/exp loss and would become frustrated and /rage quit. So... given that scenario, I was thinking of a "What if" type scenario.
So, instead of most games where ressurection spells scale upward in percentage of exp back with level, what, if the converse is used instead? There would only be one resurrection spell, and at level 10 it could provide 96% exp back, scaling down to 50% at max level. And, as expansions were released that scaling could just be spread out a bit more - 96% at 10 and 50% at level 60 for example. This could be explained away stating that although the res spells are powerful, as characters become more powerful they can't full recover all their experience.
That way, it would provide adequate time for a new generation player to acclimate to the idea of corpse runs, exp loss, and a harsh death penalty without immediately feeling the sting and running far away. They also would be much more invested to their character at that point, so I'd wager that once someone hit level 30 someone /rage quitting would be a lot less likely.
Anyhow, just a random thought I had, feel free to let me know why it's a good/bad idea :). And, Kilsin, if this is too close to the death penalty thread, feel free to merge it, but I felt it was different enough that I didn't want the idea to get lost in that thread.
Raidan, you are forgetting the difference in timescales for levelling.
Vanilla EQ,
Level 1-4 can be done in 2-8 solid hours. It is unlikely you will You may not die before level 4.
Level 5-6 can be done in 4-16 solid hours etc
Lost EXP from deaths at lower levels can thus be regained at a fairly quick rate. This is because the most powerful level for any EQ character is level 1. As you progress upwards in levels, you will find the mobs got progressively tougher than you at every step. eventually you will get to the point where you can no longer solo them easily... then no longer solo at all (depending on class).
It is therefore less needed for people to 'regain' lost exp through rez spells at lower levels. The level 10 rez with 50% recovery (did it actuaslly recover any?) is more than sufficient.
However, it *is* true that the top level rez with 96% made death almost trivial. It should never have exceeded 80% perhaps, if even that much.
Better would be :
Level 10 Recover 35% rez-sick for 3 mins
Level 20 Recover 45% rez-sick for 6 mins
Level 30 Recover 55% rez-sick for 12 mins
Level 40 Recover 65% rez-sick for 24 mins
Lecel 50 Recover 70% rez-sick for 20 mins
Level 52 Recover 72% rez-sick for 18 mins
Level 54 Recover 73% rez-sick for 12 mins
and so forth...
Thus, the 'gain' for higher level rez would be less down-time afterwards rather than ever-more exp recovery.
Perhaps other version would allow multiple rezzes (Eg a Rez I, Rez II, Rez V) with reduced exp return, but affecting 1, 2,3 or 5 people. Sort of a 'group' rez. Less 'effective' in terms of exp recoverd, but affects more targets.
Perhaps alternatively, rez may have rez-sickness of 'x mins + n times how long they been dead'. Higher levels would have small values of n.
You get the idea i hope?
Edited: for disambiguation
@Evoras,
Thanks for the reply.
I remember EQ well - probably too well, I've played it too many times :). I remember the paradox you discussed vividly and Wolfshead does a great job of explaining it: http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-everquest-paradox/
Also, there was no res spell at all till 29 (cleric) in EQ, and it didn't recover any exp. 50% at 39 and 90% at 49 - http://wiki.project1999.com/Cleric#Spells. But, I agree with you - with a good enough group, you could recover exp fairly quickly at low/mid levels, but without one, you could lose a significant chunk of time recovering it, which is why on p1999 you always see people waiting for the cleric res sticks (epics) at 96% versus even taking the 90% one. It ties into the Wolfshead point on loss aversion. I have to include the link again because I think it is that important: http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/
And, I don't like the idea of extended res sickness, as again, you're just trading one timesink for another, and in res sickness's case - most likely penalizing the group even more due to having to carry that player until the res sickness fades, versus with exp loss being able to recover exp while that player with exp loss could participate without penalty to the group.
As far as the numbers go, I was throwing out 96% at 10 as that's what the max res was in EQ (with epic and later expansions with cleric spells), and you didn't start losing exp till around that level - so there would be no exp loss at all for the first 10ish levels, which would also assist in slowly introducing players to Pantheon. You could also tweak the res numbers in alpha/beta to what seems appropriate - something like even 75% back at level 10 and then - 50% at level 50. The main point of my idea was to get the people hooked first, learn the strategy of the game (player skill), and reduce the chances of /rage quitting in the process, but, still be able to include a meaningful death penalty by tweaking the res spells versus overhauling the death penalty itself.
*Edit: For clarification and included a link to the Vanilla EQ Cleric spells Wolfshead Online for reference
What is sad is that i have (had?) Epic Cleric as Alt on actual EQ, dating from mebbe 2004 or so. How quickly you forget stuff once you have a clicky!
Rez-sickness is not my preferred solution, to be honest.
Optimally I would have:
PC Cleric Rez: Lev 29-49 between 50-75% recovery, say. Enough to make it sought after.
And to 'mitigate' some of the CR 'heartache' people seem to find impossible to reconcile...
NPC Cleric Rez: All cost faction (need to have enough banked) and cash (significant)
(a) Recover 0 % and gives sickness for 30 mins
(b) Recover 25% and sickness for 1 Hour
(c) Recover 50% and sickness for 2 hours
(d) Recover 70% and sickness for 4 hours
or something like that.
This is not something I feel is warranted - but it ties in with the other thread of CRs. I would rather keep CR's and have this above than have no CR. This above would allow NPC clerics to have the same spells as PCs but to charge cash and faction for their use. In essence, this would be an option for players who were planning on logging off, but had a corpse left someplace icky.
It is an *idea* that ties in with PC spells (tho not my preferred solution)
PS thanks for the clarification.
I've never liked/respected/feared rez sickness. It was more of an annoyance or a reason to take a break for bio/sammich/soda.
The death penalty of exp loss is better in my opinion because it was the most painful. It would actually hurt my feelings. Wasted hours because of a mistake I made. If you die, you can get right back in the action, sure... but you've gotta make up what you've lost.
Knowing you have a reliable way to get most of that exp back takes away from the fear of losing exp. "If I die, I'll get 90% of it back thanks to my cleric friend." Not knowing if you could find a rez would increase your desire to stay alive. As your confidence of finding a high percentage rez increases, your fear of death may decrease.
A level 10 should fear death in the same way a level 50 fears death. Knowing that you are guaranteed a 90% rez from anyone who can cast it would take that fear of death away.
I really don't think there should be any 90 or 96% rez options in the game. Yes, I'd use them if they were there, but I think it'd be better if they weren't.
If we're talking about how to change up a rez, I'd like to see the percentage vary by the spell level and the skill of the caster. Never a guaranteed amount but a range of possible amounts. And the player being rezed wouldn't know the amount until after they accepted it. So a fledgling Cleric with his brand new rez spell casts it to rez a fallen ally and they get a message "So-and-so has cast revive on your corpse, would you like to accept?". They do not get to know if the rez will be for 0%, 2.5%, or 20% (crit max). They accept and then see how much exp they got back. One draw back on this would be that the caster should get some feedback on if the rez spell crit or not. If we were going to allow that, I'd say that the player doesn't get a choice and if anyone casts a rez on their corpse, they don't get a choice. That way the caster couldn't tell the dead player that his spell crit or to decline so they could recast. I personally think it'd be better if the dead player couldn't choose to accept or decline and the spell just hit their corpse and brought them back into it... because if you're dead, you don't really get a say so if someone saves your life.
Higher level players with a more powerful version of the spell could still bottom out their rez with a dreaded 0% but that should have something like a 0.01% chance of occurring. Their max could be something like 80% but only on a crit where 50-60% was more common.
With the best rez possible in the game not being a guaranteed 90-96%, everyone will fear death more and will be forced to use better strategies or burn a lot more time earning back their lost exp.
@Raidan
Rather than giving a higher percentage rez at low level, I think the same thing could be accomplished by scaling up the amount of experience lost.
Then the resurrection spells would scale up as usual from revive around level 10 to the first res giving back 10% up to the highest resurrection providing something around 50%. Res spells would still be very important but they would never be capable of taking away the sting of death.
I think this is important, especially for high level content. If the best stuff is at higher levels where the content is naturally harder, the fact that you have to be careful and actually work to maintain your experience and level will make your achievements all the more rewarding. People also talk about the need for a new grind at max level (AAs etc), but if the content is increasingly challenging and loss of experience upon death is higher, that grind will already exist in the form of keeping your level. (not that I don't want some form of alternate advancement because I do)
Reading that blog by Wolfshead on death penalties only reminds me more that there just shouldn't be any compromise when it comes to things like this. Whether people realize it or not, there is great importance in maintaining a healthy level of risk versus reward via the death penalty if your achievements are going to have any merit. I personally believe its the primary reason why new mmos don't seem to have any sense of accomplishment for me. Without a chance of loss, your gains mean very little.
Dullahan said:@Raidan
Reading that blog by Wolfshead on death penalties only reminds me more that there just shouldn't be any compromise when it comes to things like this. Whether people realize it or not, there is great importance in maintaining a healthy level of risk versus reward via the death penalty if your achievements are going to have any merit. I personally believe its the primary reason why new mmos don't seem to have any sense of accomplishment for me. Without a chance of loss, your gains mean very little.
Agreed. For me, the most memorable and exciting points in MMOs involved true emotions, and that included fear. But the only way to have fear, is, well.... to be afraid of something. Since no one at home at their PC is actually going to be in any danger, the only way to create actual fear is to have a 'threat' that something could be taken away from them. Something more-or-less valuable. Otherwise, no fear. Just people toying away on a relatively meaningless game. I had more fear, excitement, and sense of accomploshment playing Pac Man and Asteroids in the 80s than I do playing most MMOs now. I think that is telling.
Raidan said:...snip...
So, instead of most games where ressurection spells scale upward in percentage of exp back with level, what, if the converse is used instead? There would only be one resurrection spell, and at level 10 it could provide 96% exp back, scaling down to 50% at max level.
First of all, I agree with the position that steep penalties for doing silly things, like dying, increase the anxiety and excitement and give you more of a sense of "ownership". They really do make the actual playing of the game more fun because you are emotionally invested. But, that is just my O.
But, I also understand the conundrum, how do you go back to EQ-like penalties without discouraging new players?
Perhaps the reduction in a rez's effacacy could be based on the number of times in a predetermined period that the player had already been rez'd? Don't penalize the healer, penalize the player who keeps dying until they get the hint.
1st rez in X hours, 96%
2nd rez in X hours, 88%
3rd rez in X hours, 75%
4th rez in X hours, 50%
5th rez in X hours, you probably ought to take a break until the timer runs for a while ;)
A couple of whoops' before it really starts scaling down.
And perhaps change the XP lost/debt by a similar amount.
1st death in X hours, Y
2nd death in X hours, Y+Z
3rd death in X hours, Y+(Zx2)
4th death in X hours, Y+(Zx4)
5th death in X hours, OUCH! You get the idea...
All these numbers are completely made up but you could make the XP lost/debt and XP restored scale to minimize the pain until they figured out that death is a bad thing?
I could go either way on most things but something that I think is absolutely needed (or something equivalent) is Res sickness.
As some of you know I am against Pantheon allowing Zerging to be a possible tactic. But the one thing that is worse than zerging is the potntial for Zombieing. Res sickness wouldnt out and out prevent it but it helps. But as I said it wouldnt have to be Res sickness, just something that would help eliminate it. There is nothing cheesier and lacking any sense of honor or skill than this.
I assume most people know what Im talking about but for clarity Zombieing is the practice of Resing your group/raid over and over again (or even having a bind point right by the target: rare this) literally throwing bodies at the bad thing til it goes away. But with Res sickness that becomes a less sure strategy. You would think a hefty xp loss would be enough to stop this, but I have seen a group delevel 3 times to do this. Something to think about at least.
@Raidan
I could get ob board with your idea. Some number tweaking, and adjustents sure but it could work.
The OP's idea is pretty original, I think it would work good. Also I have to agree that some type of Rez sickness is needed , about 3 mins. would work fine.
Maybe hidden in some strange forest is a Necromancer that drops a brutally expensive recipe to make a 100 % Rez potion that also turns you into a skeleton for an hour of rez sickness, for flavor.
@Amsai
Yeah I was just spitballing with the % numbers and to clarify - I wasn't meaning to remove res sickness altogether, I just wouldn't like to see it as a way to punish a player (group) more. Like Dullahan said, I wouldn't want it more than 5-10 minutes. EQ's was 3 minutes I think (funny I can't recall that exactly) and it seemed to work fine.
Awesome discussion, and I would like to bring up the in-game mechanics that help to learn death avoidance.
1. Most first dungeons are close ot the starting city, maybe one zone away, and through one newbie area.
( For instance: Qeynos, qeynos hills, blackburrow. Freeport, east commons(accidental drive-by buffs from market), Befallen. Erudin, Toxx, Paineel-Warrens. Rivervale, whatever, Picklaw clan. Dark elf city, Nektoulos, lava place, Najena.)
I know I got tired of being scared running naked from Erudin through Toxx to warrens- maybe it took 7min total? But I learned, when I took the boat to qeynos I only had to respawn at my bind point once before either binding closer in Qeynos or learning from it and being made more cautious.
- kinda like living in a 6th floor walk-up apartment, and as soon as you hit the sidewalk, you realize you forgot your ID/Subway fare card wallet. You do it once, and after making the walk back up, you remember not to do it again.
And that I learned early, and easily translated to heading out to other continents as I leveled up. Questions like "Can we bind there? how far away is the city, can we sell there? how hard it is for faction? Do we know someone who can sell for us? Can that native from the evil city group with us? to sell and help with Corpse runs should the event arise?"
This is something a person who is PL'd does not learn form this - naturally occuring game produced learning curve produced by this geopgraphy and going through and exploring out naturally form the newbie zones.
I think the Mid-levels from 20 to 40 shoud be filled with much trepidation- preciseily from this. I prefer the suggestion of the higher Rez percentage at the lower range and the higher the level, the less percentage gained in Rez.
So at level 60 a 50% rez. Level 10 a 96% rez/exp gain. maybe in the 20-40 level a 80% rez/75%rez/70%rez. However this makes these the "hell levels" and inadvertently, this could be a mechanic to weed out the PL'ers or at least force them to learn the concept- that a "natural" player would learn having lived through the newbie levels and the angst thereof because it would force good game/class play. The game clearly pointing out at 20- possibly the time you get earn a surname- the honeymoon is over (deus ex ludicrum)
However, there should come with experience some form of facilitation or ease as mentioned. I think graveyards for raid events only, are a good thing. This would work for group/raid level encounters and be level specfic.So if your group traveled the lands and wound up at this place or dungeon, upon entering you would re-spawn at the entrance if you wiped. You could either work through the content again to get ot the spot you left off or lick your wounds and call it a day. Upon zoning out - wherever you were "bound" (if that is going to be a thing in pantheon) in the world would then be where you end up if you die.
That, kinda makes the Dungeon/raid zone an instance if I am not mistaken, but- like a new, open world instance.
Oh yes, the amazing "bind" spell :) Always was used by me, that is the first thing you do in every zone, even if you are just passing through..lol
@Raidan
Part of me does feel that maybe there really isn't a need for rez sickness if you went with the path you are describing, Raidan. I honestly like the idea of a lower percentage rez at max level, it gives a bit more freedom for low levels and understanding the death penalty at a lower level, and as you level up you are given more and more of an understanding of how important it is to not die. I think one thing they implemented in eq at one point was you would not lose your body or anything until you hit level 10, so 1-9 was kind of a free level range to level up. I think at max level, depending on the experience loss percentage, 50% rez at cap could be a bit too much as this could potentially cause groups to just disband after one wipe if everything they worked for that past hour or two is for the most part lost with only a 50%.
@Manouk
I like the idea of that graveyard idea for dungeons and raids but I feel like the ability to spawn is disabled until your group/raid is completely out of combat to prevent zerging. As much as I would love the good old days of Plane of Fear corpse recoveries, players in this generation may not be too fond of it to a point. Perhaps have corpse recovery and still spawn at the graveyard, this way it still enables a form of corpse recovery just with less travel for those that are not used to intense corpse recovery raids.
AposiAs much as I would love the good old days of Plane of Fear corpse recoveries, players in this generation may not be too fond of it to a point.
I agree with him. I think we shouldnt be afraid to break the mold of the modern MMO. I object to the notion that Pantheon has to cater to the "new generation" of gamers . It reminds me of a few times that I have seen where WoW as is sited as the standard of MMO greatness. IMO, WoW was great at making money, in the same way Wal-Mart does, by prioritizing quanity over quality.
Without having any form of xp re-gain upon death, I feel like at that point, players would be "too" careful. Essentially the Resurrection spells would be a huge thing with i'd say primarily Clerics, but we'll just say priests in general for now. If you did not have a resurrect spell, you could spend two hours grinding deep in a dungeon, could be an amazing group, then finally you get trained or just wipe in general. Depending on the amount of xp loss there is, that right there could already have been a whole hour's worth of experience gone in an instant. Now imagine upon retreiving corpses or just getting back to camp if VR decides to no go the route of corpse recovery, but you the group wipes again to a player training the zone. In this example, that would mean all of the experience you just spent the two hours grinding is gone forever without a resurrect spell.
This is one thing that would definitely push a lot of players away if there was no form of gaining experience back, whether it is from getting to your corpse and receiving a small percentage back just by looting your body, or a resurrection spell with a certain % xp return based on priest level.
I am not opposed to modifying the way Rez's and/or CRs are done or the options of how recovery could be implemented. But like many others, I don't want those features completely removed. Death MUST sting, it must be something you fear when you begin your adventure, it must be harsh enough to keep you from trying to do things, for the sake of doing them, knowing full well you have less than a .001% chance of success.
Could the system be tweaked to better fit current game mechanics, adapted playstyles and still be acceptable to some of the modern gamers? It probably could, but it must remain a strong tenet of the game. It should be clear this is not an arcade game you can stick another quarter in and continue playing where you were.
I am a much more casual gamer than I was then. In EQ1, it was not unusual for me to play 5+ hours a night, and still get up at 6am for work. I am older now, have more responsibilities and different priorities. Most curent games I can only give 2-3 hrs a night a few times a week now. But I still don't want all those consequences removed.
The one concession I would request, is alternate options to a CR for those that can not afford to stay on another 1,2 or 3 hours to retrieve a lost corpse. But that must also come with a penalty for taking the easier recovery option.
The best strategy to recoving lost xp, should always be to avoid dieing at all.
