Quote from one of the best Innovators around (well… use to be around….)
“An innovator doesn't worry about shipping an innovative product with elements of crappiness if it's truly innovative. If a company waits for perfection, the market will pass it by, as an example: the original Macintosh lacked decent software, a hard disk, slots and color.
Don't be afraid to polarize people. Trying to appeal to everyone guarantees mediocrity. Better to create a great product that incites a passionate reaction in a segment of the market and run with it.”
Good Artists Copy, but Great Artists Steal
To paraphrase the above Innovator
"I think what he meant by 'steal' was you learn, as artists, developers have, from past masters; you figure out what you like about it and what you want to incorporate into your idea, and you take it further and do something new with it."
This can and should apply to Pantheon in many ways. I became even more interested in Pantheon after reading the Tenets, and feel the above message regarding the market segment fits inline with the direction of Pantheon.
Where do others hope to see innovation from within Pantheon (Combat, Spells, NPC Logic, etc...). I feel they are bring some innovative ideas with the colored mana, living codex, perception system and more. I hope to see innovation in things that are not related to combat such as recreational activities (Fishing, Cooking, Crafting, Hunting Wild-life for food, etc...).
I hope the inspriations that the dev's take away from other games (EQ, WOW, DAOC, etc...) are further enhanced and not just a carbon copy without any flavor.
Rint
Rint said:Where do others hope to see innovation from within Pantheon (Combat, Spells, NPC Logic, etc...). I feel they are bring some innovative ideas with the colored mana, living codex, perception system and more. I hope to see innovation in things that are not related to combat such as recreational activities (Fishing, Cooking, Crafting, Hunting Wild-life for food, etc...).
I've played Project Gorgon lately, and I really like the abundance of skills available to the player. I still want all the usual skills/abilities etc., but, I want innovation as well. So, like you said here, I would like to see innovation in making Pantheon feel more like a living, breathing world versus just having a great adventuring sphere. I want innovation like the Project Gorgon skill system on a much larger scale (like diplomacy in VG).
Rint said:Quote from one of the best Innovators around (well… use to be around….)
“An innovator doesn't worry about shipping an innovative product with elements of crappiness if it's truly innovative. If a company waits for perfection, the market will pass it by, as an example: the original Macintosh lacked decent software, a hard disk, slots and color.
Don't be afraid to polarize people. Trying to appeal to everyone guarantees mediocrity. Better to create a great product that incites a passionate reaction in a segment of the market and run with it.”
Good Artists Copy, but Great Artists Steal
To paraphrase the above Innovator
"I think what he meant by 'steal' was you learn, as artists, developers have, from past masters; you figure out what you like about it and what you want to incorporate into your idea, and you take it further and do something new with it."
This can and should apply to Pantheon in many ways. I became even more interested in Pantheon after reading the Tenets, and feel the above message regarding the market segment fits inline with the direction of Pantheon.
Where do others hope to see innovation from within Pantheon (Combat, Spells, NPC Logic, etc...). I feel they are bring some innovative ideas with the colored mana, living codex, perception system and more. I hope to see innovation in things that are not related to combat such as recreational activities (Fishing, Cooking, Crafting, Hunting Wild-life for food, etc...).
I hope the inspriations that the dev's take away from other games (EQ, WOW, DAOC, etc...) are further enhanced and not just a carbon copy without any flavor.
Rint
Well said!
From what I have seen in the game images and video footage they are going for a different look and feel but keeping the game familiar.
I think that is the exciting part of all this is they all have very different perspectives and can deploy ideas based on them. This is a great thing for the game as a whole.
I am sure some of the other game mechanics will find their way into Pantheon but lets just hope they are the better parts.
“I hope the inspriations that the dev's take away from other games (EQ, WOW, DAOC, etc...) are further enhanced and not just a carbon copy without any flavor. “
Nailed it!!!
I hope for Combat innovations. I'm so very sick of Global Cooldown's and rotations. I want combat to be a deep experience similar to the feeling I get when playing a strategy rpgs like Original Sin. Imy not saying I want turn based gameplay. I just want to capture some of that feeling if that makes sense?
Mod Edit: Fixed auto correct for you and removed double post ;)
Amsai said:I hope for Combat innovations. I'm so very sick of Global Cooldown's and rotations.
Agreed!
Watching the latest videos and still playing EQ reminds me why we need to advance combat further, and I'm not saying we need twitch combat but something better than what we have now or in the past. As an example, watching Kilsin position behind a mob to backstab it was boring to watch and probably more so doing it. What I would have liked to see was Kilsin not being in the fray right from the get-go but attacking from a distance with a crossbow or flying knives perhaps aiming at vital points on a mob to slow it (sorry shamans) or reduce its damage ability. Then when the mob is down a percentage Kilsin could sneak-in behind the mob and slice-n-dice, but the mob needs to react to this regardless of the agro the tank has on him because anyone being attacked from behind will usually respond to an attack. A mob needs to be smart enough to try to protect its weak backside!
Another one is when Brad was tanking the mobs, it’s the typical spank & tank with him holding agro while everyone else hits from behind or the side, and you will see an occasional kick or bash attempt. While these are the standard fare of combat, its time for an upgrade! I think there should be a chance for a critical hit on a mob (One-Shot Kill) or if Brad gets a good kick on the mob the mob keels over in agony and then Brad chops his head off (One-Shot). These should be difficult to do and only to non-named mobs/bosses.
Enchanters should be able to do more in combat and out of combat. Perhaps Enchanters can “Enchant” the weapons and gear of its group to make them more effective, or curse the weapons on mobs to make them less effective or possibly change a weapon during combat, as an example if a mob is doing some serious business on a tank but he has a weapon that increased his DPS greatly the Enchanter should have the chance to possibly curse the NPC’s weapon so that the add DPS of the weapon is negated or some other mechanic.
The general gist is that we need to see innovation in all aspects of Pantheon. Don’t get me wrong I’m a true-blood EQ fan as there will ever be, but it’s time for some radical innovations.
Rint
Rint said:Amsai said:I hope for Combat innovations. I'm so very sick of Global Cooldown's and rotations.
Agreed!
Watching the latest videos and still playing EQ reminds me why we need to advance combat further, and I'm not saying we need twitch combat but something better than what we have now or in the past. As an example, watching Kilsin position behind a mob to backstab it was boring to watch and probably more so doing it. What I would have liked to see was Kilsin not being in the fray right from the get-go but attacking from a distance with a crossbow or flying knives perhaps aiming at vital points on a mob to slow it (sorry shamans) or reduce its damage ability. Then when the mob is down a percentage Kilsin could sneak-in behind the mob and slice-n-dice, but the mob needs to react to this regardless of the agro the tank has on him because anyone being attacked from behind will usually respond to an attack. A mob needs to be smart enough to try to protect its weak backside!
Another one is when Brad was tanking the mobs, it’s the typical spank & tank with him holding agro while everyone else hits from behind or the side, and you will see an occasional kick or bash attempt. While these are the standard fare of combat, its time for an upgrade! I think there should be a chance for a critical hit on a mob (One-Shot Kill) or if Brad gets a good kick on the mob the mob keels over in agony and then Brad chops his head off (One-Shot). These should be difficult to do and only to non-named mobs/bosses.
Enchanters should be able to do more in combat and out of combat. Perhaps Enchanters can “Enchant” the weapons and gear of its group to make them more effective, or curse the weapons on mobs to make them less effective or possibly change a weapon during combat, as an example if a mob is doing some serious business on a tank but he has a weapon that increased his DPS greatly the Enchanter should have the chance to possibly curse the NPC’s weapon so that the add DPS of the weapon is negated or some other mechanic.
The general gist is that we need to see innovation in all aspects of Pantheon. Don’t get me wrong I’m a true-blood EQ fan as there will ever be, but it’s time for some radical innovations.
Rint
I wonder if this is a reach we should not be going far. After playing games like GW2 and Rift and the combat in those games make me concerned about the emulation or following what trends are out there such as Korean based games with the over the top actions and environmental visuals. I think that some of that is great but can completely break immersion and the game frankly.
The game mechanics are going to be interesting as to how VR’s direction will impact the final product. I would love to see better mechanics for sure but with innovation comes the drawbacks to what the game engine can do and how creative the VR team gets with it. Then there is us the players. Our reaction will be a big piece of this.
Interesting time to be involved with this that is for sure.
Ox
Rint said:Watching the latest videos and still playing EQ reminds me why we need to advance combat further, and I'm not saying we need twitch combat but something better than what we have now or in the past. As an example, watching Kilsin position behind a mob to backstab it was boring to watch and probably more so doing it. What I would have liked to see was Kilsin not being in the fray right from the get-go but attacking from a distance with a crossbow or flying knives perhaps aiming at vital points on a mob to slow it (sorry shamans) or reduce its damage ability. Then when the mob is down a percentage Kilsin could sneak-in behind the mob and slice-n-dice, but the mob needs to react to this regardless of the agro the tank has on him because anyone being attacked from behind will usually respond to an attack. A mob needs to be smart enough to try to protect its weak backside!
I think improving mob AI could go a really long way. If a mob gets hit by powerful positional abilities, it should know to begin strafing. It may still focus the tank if he is playing properly, but the mob actually moving around in an attempt to reduce other damage would make the entire process of backstabbing more rewarding.
The second thing that will dramatically improve the mmo experience is world AI or dynamic content. Giving factions actual objectives that can change what is happening in a zone or area, especially in response to player actions or inactions, is the way of the future regarding mmorpgs.
I know VR have already mentioned 'AI modes' for mobs... and I do think this is extensible...
Two Scenarios I will consider :
1. Animal Cunning (Techincally 'unintelligent' creatures, but *not* stupid)
Wily creatures, particularly pack hunters, have evolved methods of ensuring that as many as possible survive. Wolves will rotate attack cycles. Wolf_A will attack for aggro while Wolf_B will attack flanks. If Wolf_A is taking damage, he goes defensive while Wolf_B pushes for a snare (Hamstring) or debuff (fractured ankle) or DoT (bleed) on you. Packs of Hyenas will use swarm tactics, as will many insect types. I.e. pick the 'weak' character (in thieir view, typically smallest for mammals) and focus them down.
Thus giving 'unintelligent' creatures a pack mentality where appropriate will up the danger level, and hence the importance of tactics needed to fight them, greatly. This raises the game massively from mere 'tank and spank' combat, even if the combat tools are still simple (ie non-twitch ugggh, hate twitch).
2. Intelligent Creatures (Even low intelligence Demi-Humans)
Anything of (remotely) human-like levels of intelligence will have a set of pre-determined roles within combat. Some examples:
A. Even untrained tribesmen can spot weak-spots. If the 6 kobolds attacking you are doing little to no damage to the armoured tanks, then the AI should shift balance (where the mobs AI has 'spotted' this for the mob leader, say) to allow the aggro to be temporarily broken when the Leader Kobold says 'oi!, guys, attack the wimpy shorty gnomey at the side there' and they change tactic. This, though may allow the tank to get an extra effective hit on the mobs he had aggroed as they turn to head over to the poor gnome. Hitting them (for any damage) may reset the aggro back on the tank as they suddenly realise that staying alive is more important than follwing orders. thus, the tank needs to hold back on a taunt, or a 'frontal sweep' type strike just in case. He cannot just mash 1-2-3-4 and repeat ad nauseum.
B. Trained Creatures will use this training. Attacking 4 orc fighters may find them protecting each others flanks by standing next to each other. Thus, they gain a bonus for using tactics against you. Sure, your tank has taunted them, but the three melee orcs in front have closed ranks to protect each other while the 4th orc (a slinger) is using his 'ranged attack AI' to burn off the taunt faster and so engage the caster or healer at the back with his sling. Here the difference for the tank is that, while he knows he can taunt the melees easily, the ranged attackers will 'burn through' (Iie find less effective) his taunts. Thus the party needs to prioritise the ranged mobs first.... but that leaves the tank in front of a lot of mobs.... 2 of who will have some form of partial flank to attack him on...
So just by upgrading the AI behaviour models and, perhaps, tweaking how taunt affects melee vs rangeds mobs you can create a far more complex combat model ... still using the simple (EQ simple) skills for combat.
Not a complete picture, by any determination ... but perhaps a glimpse of what 'better AI' can do.
Game Innovation..
I feel the problem is when games become overly standardised they end up feeling the same.. Maybe it's just me but I don't like "the same". I like a challenge and when things get sanded off too much it ends up being too easy and bland as you've seen it all before. (lowest common denominators)
To me the main problem is simplication in the design process of games. The design legacy of Mr Ste Jobs of making things as simplistic and as functional as possible is great don't get me wrong... it's absolutely the right approach when it comes to tools and functionality.. but a game is an art form of fun not a tool or technically a piece of practical software.. It's whatever the artist/creator/designer envisions..
Games shouldn't be overly complex or in-practical mind you depending on different parts of the game.. For instance game settings - it's a tool/functional by nature so it could be simplistic. However standardising gameplay elements is not the right way.. General gameplay and gameplay depth is probably thee most important aspects of a game.. it defines the fun; the true art and fun experience.. you could have thee most amazing artistic- almost realistic graphics going.. but if the gameplay is not there.. it's boring/dull.
So if gameplay becomes impacted by standardisation.. I think the designers/devs have gone too far when they start to deminish/limit the gameplay (usually because of a controller). Controllers are a choice.. not mandatory.. and even if you're disabled it's unfair to ask for the whole gameplay to be limited just for the sake of the very few. No this doesn't mean don't support.. it means don't limit the innovation/art/fun by it.
I always say if someone doesn't like what you did/made.. I'm sure someone else will either cater for it, mod it in or even create something entirely new. You know that's why I truely believe that modding has the ability to truely inspire and create innovation. It opens up so much varation..
Now regarding Pantheon and mmo innovation.. from what I've seen so far I think Brad recognises most if not maybe all of the problems with mmo innovation.. (and probably what I've mentioned above regarding games in general) but also even more so than most of the devs out there if I'm honest. Visionary Realms is on pretty much the right path I feel.. They certainly recogise the lack of mmo innovation.. to which I've known some designers/companies to categorically deny this; simply for the sake of more sales/money.. I've also heard/seen *suck up* fans blindly agree with them without any true thought behind what they were saying.. just blindly defending it because they're a big fan.
Sometimes it feels like a developer either sees the game as a "fun" art form or just dollar signs; black and white; night and day.
What if the AI could learn from its battles with pc characters ? AI just didn't have a set number of moves, or set number of spells to its arsenal, but could actually learn just as we learn and level up. The AI would learn when to use a root, or when to use a stun, a disarm, etc etc. .. a rogue AI that you fought before, now all of a sudden when approached again has this ability to now vanish and surprise you from behind, thefore stunning you before you can cast, or even disarming you. Stun locking you and then running if it needs to flee. Would make for a very interesting environment where everything actually learns from its own winnings and losings of battles .Think about it, it's kind of unfair that we can approach mobs over and over and we ourselves learn their tactics, we learn their moves, their spell rotations and we adjust for the next encounter making the fight easier for us. What if they could do the same ? very curious :)
Evoras said:So just by upgrading the AI behaviour models and, perhaps, tweaking how taunt affects melee vs rangeds mobs you can create a far more complex combat model ... still using the simple (EQ simple) skills for combat.
Not a complete picture, by any determination ... but perhaps a glimpse of what 'better AI' can do.
Well said Evoras. I believe the next step in innovation that is needed is AI behavior. I always think back to my FPS days of Unreal, Quake, Doom...etc... and how when you turned up the mob AI difficulty they seemed just as difficult if not more so to kill than playing aginast a regular person. Those FPS games really advanced the AI mechanics alot, but I'm not sure how that could transfer to a MMO game, but I will say that todays MMO AI is to predicatable and needs to be elevated.
Rint
Rint said:Evoras said:So just by upgrading the AI behaviour models and, perhaps, tweaking how taunt affects melee vs rangeds mobs you can create a far more complex combat model ... still using the simple (EQ simple) skills for combat.
Not a complete picture, by any determination ... but perhaps a glimpse of what 'better AI' can do.
Well said Evoras. I believe the next step in innovation that is needed is AI behavior. I always think back to my FPS days of Unreal, Quake, Doom...etc... and how when you turned up the mob AI difficulty they seemed just as difficult if not more so to kill than playing aginast a regular person. Those FPS games really advanced the AI mechanics alot, but I'm not sure how that could transfer to a MMO game, but I will say that todays MMO AI is to predicatable and needs to be elevated.
Rint
Was just recently playing the Division and Destiny on my ps/4 and even simple AI such as NPCs ducking and getting behind obsticles added a lot of chalenge. Good stuff.
Aradune said:Was just recently playing the Division and Destiny on my ps/4 and even simple AI such as NPCs ducking and getting behind obsticles added a lot of chalenge. Good stuff.
That is exactly what I'm referring to with Innovation. NPC's should be smart enough to know "Hey, why am I running up to this Ranger as he impales me with Arrows instead of ducking behind this rock". NPC interaction with players needs to be innovative enough that it requires a new way of thinking for players, the traditional ways are boring.
Innovation I would like to see:
NPC's can wake each other up if some are mezzed, If a group pulls a mob but a friend tags along but the Enchanter in the group Mez's him there should be a reaction by the non-mez'd NPC that he needs to wake-up his buddy.
NPC's using the environment to their advantage. As Brad pointed out ducking behind obstacles and such. It would be great if they used the terrain better as well, if a player jumps down from a cliff to get away from a mob, the same mob should jump after him instead of taking the long way to get to him.
NPC’s protecting themselves from the group of players trying to kill them by shielding their weak sides such as their back.
Class combat needs a lot of work, and as I mentioned before the traditional Rogue tactic of positioning behind a NPC to do max damage is fairly boring. However, a Rogue that uses Ranged weapons to help weaken the NPC would be a nice spin on things (Why should Rangers have all the fun… :P )
I’m sure there is a lot we don’t know about Pantheon and its possible all of the above has been taken into consideration, but the importance of this can’t be understated.
Rint