Hello again forums,
I wanted to bring up one of my biggest fears for this game. And it stems from how the ‘western’ audience usually views their melee classes as mundane.
We are playing a fantasy game which includes fantastical powers which you can control. Magic exists, monsters exist, and you are a part of this world of supernatural things and can take part in those exciting things. But, if you pick the wrong class … you get to watch the world around you enjoy in these wonderful spell effects and supernatural abilities but not take part in it because you picked ‘the warrior’.
In Western games we see a bigger trend towards stripping the ‘magic’ out of the melee classes. No spell effects, no spells to cast, and they get abilities which talk about ‘technique’ and ‘strength’. There is not much suspension of disbelief when overcoming your obstacles isn’t something fantastic, it’s just hard work in typical fashion.
As an example. A mage might walk into a situation and do the unbelievable by freezing their enemy solid and then shattering them. In the same situation the warrior just hits the thing with a hammer over and over.
If we look at common eastern themes for the melee classes the situation would change. The warrior would use some fantastical power to make their hammer strikes take on magical properties. The hammer could grow in size, be coated with energy, or even cause a grenade like explosion-nothing mundane about it!
Now there is certainly nothing wrong with the warrior’s way of dealing with the problem in a mundane way, a large number of people like that style. I don’t care for it. And this stems back to the ‘fantastical world’ and being a part of it instead of looking from the outside in.
So here’s my wish-list.
Please let me tank on a class which uses melee attacks and magic attacks. Let me put that ‘red mana’ to use in thrilling spell effects up close and personal with my enemies. By all means, don’t forget about the boys who want to just bash it with a hammer over and over, but also don’t forget about those of us who want to see magic in the melee.
So forums, which camp are you in, and why?
Do you like the mundane melee classes? Or are you a fan of that elemental warrior/mage?
-Todd
There will be a handful of melee hybrids who use magic. But I wouldn't expect magic beams coming from the warrior. There will be a lot of realism within the game so a few melee classes will depend heavily on physical melee attacks and not magic. The rogue is another class who most likely won't have a lot of magical hooblah surrounding their attacks. But I think it safe to assume that both the warrior and rogue may have some magic to their repetoire.
I'm a big fan of melee classes, and as long as they have some sort of other functionality besides poking at something with a sword, be it buffs, debuffs, CC...then I think the design is working perfectly. Hybrid classes like the Crusader and DL fit nicely into this category, but even the humble warrior should have shouts or auras that helps their party out.
I would love to see melee be something more than it is. Warrior on EQ = taunt, kick... taunt, kick, bash.... taunt.... kick..... bash.
Then SK is a warrior that is also a Necro be 10 levels lower. i.e lev 10 Warrior with lev 1 Necro abilites.
Paly, Warrior with cleric abilities 10 levels behind... same as SK .
Ranger, weak melee with druid spells, 10 levels behind. ....
I would love to see a break in the mold here. From twitch streams, that's Not going to happen, but in another universe, yes. I would love to see a really good hybrid of Warrior/ wizard.
I won't go as far as say Death Knight in WoW, but at the same time, something a Lot closer to DK than just a SK warrior/Necro hybrid. I don't want the game to play like WoW, but I also think some of the classes on wow were thought out pretty well. Kind of like the Frost DK. It's a melee class that casts spells that aren't just spells from a Wizard. They are spells Unique to DK. I am sure they may have barrowed a spell or two here an there from another class, but over all, it feels unique. Not just a Warrior with Frost mage spells 10 levels behind.
Guild Wars 2 had some amazing classes, Mezmer, Engineer, etc. As well as Rift with the Cloromancer DPS healer etc. but, the class list is already up and we are getting EQ1-ish classic, basics.
Fun thoughts though.
Fulton said:Fancy spell effects for pure melee characters? Isn't that what weapon procs were for? :)
You should check out the Dark night and blue mage classes on ffxi, they are proof that hybrid classes can be a very very fun thing.
Dark night was a 2 hander class using great swords or a scythe, with access to a particular group of spells that stole health, mana, and attributes from enemies while literally causing damage to themselves to do damage... a healers worst nightmare to heal lmao. They also had very limited mp pools so they weren't just blasting nukes off, they had to manage their mp as well.
Blue was more of a spell sword, melee wise they would never be able to hold a candle to the 2 hander dps but they brought a whole lot of utility to the group, and were pretty self sufficient(healers loved me because they knew they wouldn't have to worry about healing or buffing me which freed them up)
Of course their were limitations to these jobs but they were insanely fun to play.
Edit: I do think there should be some pure melee classes as well but I just love my hybrids lol. I'll gladly trade the pure melee dps for a bit of utility!
Grimix said:Fulton said:Fancy spell effects for pure melee characters? Isn't that what weapon procs were for? :)
You should check out the Dark night and blue mage classes on ffxi, they are proof that hybrid classes can be a very very fun thing.
That's why I said PURE melee class (IE: warriors, mercanaries, monks, rogues) . I have always played hybrids (Paladins, SKs). And if one wants a class with magic, casting AND melee, then that is what we have hybrid classes for.
Melee can have abilities... that aren't magic, that are beyond taunt bash kick. Warriors shouts commands Rogues poisons and traps Monks various techniques and nerve strikes. All of that would have a basis in lore and could have its own powersource (endurance or discipline or something) The reason melee don't get magic is its generally seen as they are masters over physical discipline in its numerous variants. Or perhaps they see magic as blight upon the earth and thusly refuse it thinking it would degrade their discipline and control of their bodies. Which is a pretty good reason from them to eschew magic.
TLDR:not everyone likes magic, not everyone in a fantasy world will use it either, there needs to be options, everyone using magic unilaterally isn't logical either.
As much as I really disliked RIFT after a while, I loved the warrior skills like Bull Rush, AE swings and the Taunt where you sucked the mob to you.. (im sure there were other skills but those stick out the most) While not hybrid-ish-like skills they are magical in nature. Might add a little to the kick, kick, taunt, bash, kick....
i dont mind a melee class having things like a 'flaming fist' for a monk with the appropraite effect, things of that nature. ive played a few games where as a melee seemingly a third of my attacks were not actually a weapon attack. i dont like this.
RIFT, a game i like, had this, the warrior i was playing (tried some pre-set build) i weas using a full on lightning strike sort of spell - sorry, i dont think it fits.
now, if a casted 'lightning strike', had the animation, then my weapon were imbued with that effect for a time, or 'next -X number- of attacks', i can dig that. same for a crusader, or direlord, etc. the 'spells' they have should just be something that adds to their melee.
as Fairchild said, other abilities can have a nice effect. i just dont want the 'stab you, slice you, crush you' melee classes to be casting spells.
While I do agree with the initial thesis, that it is nice to have magical damage as a melee and not just auto attack away, I think if this game has the sort of combat weve come to expect from EQ2 and so on, it will be OK.
My main was a swashbuckler in EQ2 for as long as I can imagine. While the melee dps mostly came from auto attacking and poisons - when I was soloing, it was more of a strategic placing of abilities that allowed me to solo so much hard content (of course being in the best raid guild also didnt hurt).
For example, heroic opportunities and stuns on certain abilities would allow me to maximize my dps without taking damage. Stuns like Cheap shot, shanghai and dashing swathe would stun for 2-3 seconds, and when timed well with enemy auto attacks and my auto attacks, would allow me to destroy a mob down below half before it even damaged me. It's this kind of strategic planning and the nuances of the abilities that make melee so fun. If ROTF contains anything like this - I will be more than happy. Tanky melee classes are exactly my style and I also think that allowing rogues and other classes to have certain tanking ability at the right time - is a must.
For example - 3 Princes contested mob from KoS EQ2 expansion. You needed all 3 tanks to switch mobs at the right moment to avoid massive single target nukes - which was cool as hell. As a high end geared swash, I could also tank any heroic content and certain raid content. I remember when our main tank died at venekor in halls of seeing and offtank was knocked by statues and so had to AFK - I tanked the mob for 60% of its health. This kind of thing makes any character a blast to play.
I would say that RIFT has a good thing going where you can change between 3 different trees and play dps/tank/healer on the same character, but perhaps not to that extent - just changing stances, buffs, and gear, would be ideal to change your role. That is what I would greatly desire.
LordAxumi said:I would say that RIFT has a good thing going where you can change between 3 different trees and play dps/tank/healer on the same character, but perhaps not to that extent - just changing stances, buffs, and gear, would be ideal to change your role. That is what I would greatly desire.
I don't want to change between 3 different roles, that's why I pledged support to this game that seems to be on the right track of keeping them seperate. If you're a plumber you might also have experience as an electrician or carpenter but odds are you aren't also a surgeon or an astronaut, and surely not a plumber/surgeon/astronaut. Specialization allows excellence in one field, pick one job, knock the ball out of the park, let others do their own jobs, teamwork.
As far as 'magic in the melee'... pick a hybrid. Giving magic to pure melee classes only diminishes casters.
tehtawd said:So here’s my wish-list.
Please let me tank on a class which uses melee attacks and magic attacks. Let me put that ‘red mana’ to use in thrilling spell effects up close and personal with my enemies. By all means, don’t forget about the boys who want to just bash it with a hammer over and over, but also don’t forget about those of us who want to see magic in the melee.
-Todd
Congratulations! You have two choices in Pantheon: Crusader and Dire Lord.
Vandraad said:tehtawd said:So here’s my wish-list.
Please let me tank on a class which uses melee attacks and magic attacks. Let me put that ‘red mana’ to use in thrilling spell effects up close and personal with my enemies. By all means, don’t forget about the boys who want to just bash it with a hammer over and over, but also don’t forget about those of us who want to see magic in the melee.
-Todd
Congratulations! You have two choices in Pantheon: Crusader and Dire Lord.
Lol. Thanks V.
Sent via mobile
-Todd
I don't like the idea of gutting pure melee when there are already hybrid classes available. I get that some folks dont want to play the traditional hybrid classes, but make a new one, don't gut the pure melee to accomplish it. My wife hates casters/priests and loves melee, mostly just monks tbh. My daughter thinks everything but archers is stupid. I'm a chanter...there should be no other class bc chanters are the only ones with class. -_-
Naim said:I would love to see melee be something more than it is. Warrior on EQ = taunt, kick... taunt, kick, bash.... taunt.... kick..... bash.
I can see how that can be mundane to folks, but knowing when to use those few skills was also detrimental in combat. Just spamming taunt is not the best way to keep a mobs aggro. Kick and Bash weren't just for extra dmg. Learning the ins and outs of a class can make even the most mundane of tasks meaningful and bring much more enjoyment.
just my thoughts
I know this will put me in the minority but I detest the word "hybrid" to describe a class - because it implies a class that is less effective at a primary role, by taking on aspects of some secondary role.
I think it's useful for us to not think about things in terms of "pure" or "hybrid", but instead to think about "flavor". A tank is a tank - whether it's a Warrior, a Paladin/Crusader, or a Dire Lord. But the way that they do that job *should* be very different. There's nothing saying that (as an example) Warriors couldn't do the job through a combination of brute strength and skill, whereas Dire Lords do it through overpowering dark magic. A Rogue might do DPS via stealth and crafty tricks, whereas a Monk might do it through intense training and harnessing mystical abilities to strengthen their own body.
Anyway my point is that while I support the idea of spicing up melee by having some classes get "magical" abilities - I don't want us to go down the "hybrid" road and create a set of visually appealing/fun classes that will get viewed by players as second-rate substitutes because they're not "pure". I hope that makes sense :)
