Dullahan said:Magical melee are usually called hybrids 'round here. I like both hybrids and the pure melee, I just hope pure melee still have some cool effects and animations to go with their moves.
To add to that the auras for support classes give the melee classes skills or powers they did not have. For example, a cleric casting a protective spell on a warrior would give them the ability to deal more carnage out without casting. I am wondering if this is a visual thing. I see the eastern games as a flash bang type of game play. Lots going on visually. In the background its usually not much but a few spells/aura or something along those lines. I do have concerns with that style of game, but people like them. I think the western style focusses on the game play and abilities of the class and player. Support and main casting classes are all part of the mechanism that is combat. GW2 has this sort of style but not to the extent of other games I have seen and played. I understand the OP but it’s a clear design choice. At least in my opinion.
Ox
I think flashy sparks are going to happen no matter what. Brad's flaming sword looks pretty flashy ;p
The Paladin, Ranger, and Dire Lord are all going to be casting spells in addition to tanking. I am sure the game will allow the amount of spell sparkles to be independantly turned down while keeping high end graphics settings elsewhere. I would hope anyways.
I think that it was a generalization that warriors only taunt and kick. Everyone knows that tanks can make or break a group with skills. In fact, the warrior in patheon looks so good, I might even be a tank in Pantheon!
I agree that it would have been fun to rethink classes and maybe go outside the normal box, but I am also Very ok with what Brad is giving us.
I am very open minded and don't close the door on ideas that don't agree with my own. Too many folks are "My Way ; or the Highway.." pick one... That kind of line in the sand thinking is boring and outdated.
A game does not have to be stylized / cartoon to also be fun and think different.
Again, I think what Brad has presented is great as is. But I also think games like Wildstar, Guild Wars 2, WoW, and Elder Scrolls online are all also fantastic games even though they are different. Each of these games took a "Warrior" and brought something unique to the table. GW2 warrior is stupid fun lol.
After watching all of the streams, I am very happy with everything I have seen in Pantheon. I have nothing to complain about.
I want to look for some threads specifically about the streams and offer feedback there.
Personally I am not a fan of Korean style MMO's where your Warrior character leaps and jumps around like a squirrel while surrounded by lightning and wielding a hammer that is 99 sizes larger than himself while causing repeated explosions to happen around him with every strike and yelling Hyaaah, haah, hnngh, haaa, haaaai, yeaaaaa!
Instead of surrounding the non-magic classes with 'fake magic' they should instead have abilities that enable them to do things the magic-based classes can't. I have no idea what might await in Pantheon. Are there doors to opened that are resistant to magic, or simply require strength to get past? Are there creatures where magic will not work like a form of immunity or mitigation towards magic based attacks, e.g. golems and such?
Sure hybrid-classes are fun, but even those are largely about the melee. Playing a Shadowknight in Everquest I get 1 spell every other level. A majority of them are not even combat based, but things like "invisibility to undead" or "endure cold". When it comes to the fighting it's stabbing the enemy in the gut with your blade. Simple as that. Nothing overly fancy at all.
Surely there are creative minds who could come up with things that unique to the melee classes which makes them just as important for the group dynamic as any caster class.
Just please, whatever else, don't make melee class playstyle some kinda Streetfighter'esque style like we see in Black Desert and other Asian "hyperactive particle-effect overload" games. I really, really dislike those. A big appeal with Western MMOs (of which there are few, while Asian ones are a dime a dozen) is an approximation to reality by being more aimed towards Dungeons & Dragons style. That's why UO, Everquest, Everquest 2 and such games are enjoyable for me, while cartoon and streetfighter MMO's like WoW and asian based ones are games I quickly abandon.
I don't see any harm in having weapon proc's or other right click abilities tie into a player's mana pool instead of thier endurance meter. I do think that melee should have abilities that tie into mana. Not so much a hybrid idea like a ranger, but at least a dabbling of weapon augmentation or self-haste. You should be able to craft or augment items with mana based spells even if you are a warrior. I am curious to see what they have in mind for this sort of thing. I know in eq1 we had disciplines which could be considered a spell, but they didnt run off of a mana pool. But AA's didnt run off mana either so it kindof equaled itself out in the end game. If disciplines had run off mana and aa's tied to mana or a source of mana other than blue i think the game would have been completely different.
Edit: didnt they show that the rogue shadow walk ran off mana?
kreed99 said:I don't see any harm in having weapon proc's or other right click abilities tie into a player's mana pool instead of thier endurance meter. I do think that melee should have abilities that tie into mana. Not so much a hybrid idea like a ranger, but at least a dabbling of weapon augmentation or self-haste. You should be able to craft or augment items with mana based spells even if you are a warrior. I am curious to see what they have in mind for this sort of thing. I know in eq1 we had disciplines which could be considered a spell, but they didnt run off of a mana pool. But AA's didnt run off mana either so it kindof equaled itself out in the end game. If disciplines had run off mana and aa's tied to mana or a source of mana other than blue i think the game would have been completely different.
Edit: didnt they show that the rogue shadow walk ran off mana?
Warrior's current survival cooldown does tap into Mana.
This is just my cents on the matter. Granted the warrior isn't magical, and what he gives up in magical abilities he usually makes up for in offensive ability. That being said, hybrids lose that defensive edge a little, but their spells usually make up for it. Rarely tho, do you see a hybrid main tanking a raid hit. Mostly because it's difficult to land spells and all that, making that magical prowess gained from hybrids into nothing gained.
Now what I do think a warrior needs, is some kind of buffs for the group, such as a warcry. Let me tell you this story, you may laugh tho lol. I was in the US Military, one day in Iraq, during my first tour, I had finally gotten into my first firefight, there were some things I didn't realize, but this dude, said something, I don't even remember what it was, but it made me feel like rambo, so I go barreling out of the back end of my truck ready to do some damage and save the day, lo and behold there was a wall between me and my targets, but i came out so fast and just started pulling my trigger, all i did was hit a wall like 10x. Pretty funny if you ask me, but he inspired me to do that, he wanted me to lay down some cover fire and that's what I was trying to do, but he knew there was a wall there, so at the same time he tricked me. And they got me good... They called me wally for a few weeks lol.
Anyways, this is the warriors job, lead them into the fight and rally us to win, to swing harder and cut deeper. That should be part of the warriors job, sure it won't be super magical or anything, but it would be cool to get buffed just from hearing a warriors war cry. Now, the only problem I see with this is DPS are some number hungry people, so if they are out threating the tank off this buff, it could also be a bad day, but another tactic the warrior could use it all the threat generated during that buff gets cut in half and given to the warrior, kinda like the mob is trying to get him to stop making them hurt him kind of thing. These kinds of tactics would be cool to see and would give more people a reason to play the warrior.
Again, it isn't magical, but who needs magic when you can yell and inspire everyone to do more? That's a different type of magic all in itself, and exactly what i expect a warrior to be able to do.
kreed99 said: Magical warcry is a big thumbs up from me. Didnt beserkers have something like that? I think all classes should have mana and use it on the regular. I always felt that certain melee things in eq1 should have been tied to mana. I can also see havin a magical weapon or armor piece draining some of your mana to use it. I abused the heck out of melee procs in Eq1 as a rogue, but i think having insta click melee “proc” that use maybe a fraction of the original spell mana cost would balance out that kind of feature. Just an idea. I know they have mentioned mana colors so this might well be already planned
They could take some of the RNG out of procs too, make it so it has to build up energy first, so like after it procs in 5 strikes it has a chance to proc again expelling that energy, and it built up past the max too so when it does finally proc there's a bit of overcharge on it dealing more dmg or adding a second effect. That would cool.
i hope not.
i dont want to see "hammer that grows in size" or any other "eastern" mmo tropes on my melees.
there are plenty of unique moves for melee classes,
rogues have poisons, saps, backstabs, garotte attacks, vulnerability strikes .
warrios have kicks, shield bashes, charges, shield walls, cleaves and morale cries (shouts).
rangers have varios percision shots, pin shot, cripple shot, set trap, camouflage, etc.
lets not push unnesesary magic to pure melee classes, there are plenty "spellsword" classes, you have paladin and you have dire lord and even the monk.
this part is from old wow forums, this is how the melees should be:
"I am the Warrior.
When you see me, I will, most likely, not be attired formally. I will be encased in my steel. It will be dirty, bloody, and battered. I do not have a quick tongue or eloquent speech. I know nothing of the manners of the King's court, or the ettiquette of the formal ball.
I am the Warrior.
I have not the capability, nor the inclination, to hide. I cannot strike from stealth with devastating blows, then fade into the darkness. I cannot incinerate a foe from twenty paces away. I cannot deal death from a distance, safe from the return attacks of my enemy. In order to kill, I must close with the enemy. I see his eyes. I smell his breath. I taste his fear. And he tastes mine.
I cannot bend Nature to do my bidding. I cannot tap into the Nether and force it to do what I command. I cannot study the arcane and master it to my control. I command nought but my mind, my body, and my will. It is by those, and those alone, that I stand or fall.
I have no friends on my journey. No walkers of the void, summoned from the Nether as servants and bodyguards. No loyal beasts of the plains or woods, to defend me and comfort me in my pain. My sole companion is my weapon. I must care for it better than any hunter has ever cared for his beast. I must master it more than any warlock has ever mastered his demon. Without me, it is useless. Without it, I am nothing.
I cannot heal. I cannot shield. I cannot call upon the gods and see my prayers answered. I call to the spirits of my ancestors in the heat of battle, and they are silent. My only ability to protect is to offer myself, my blood and bone and sinew, as a sacrifice. To draw the attacks of our foes. To take the blows that would kill a lesser being, and continue to fight on.
I cannot kill with the speed and grace of the rogue, the suddenness and shock of the hunter, or the flamboyance and power of the mage. When I kill, it is a slow business. Slow and bloody for all concerned, myself included. I fight on, pummeled and battered so that my companions may receive the glory of the kill and the wreaths of victory. If I die and they yet live, it is an expected sacrifice.
I come in all races, all sizes. I fight under a thousand flags, on a million battlefields. I am dismissed by the highborn, scorned by the noble, lectured by the priest, and forgotten by the peasant. Until the time when the trumpets of battle sound, and those who would destroy them come forth. And then the cry goes up..."Where, oh where, is the Warrior?"
Pray to your gods that I continue to answer that call.
Few do answer the call. Fewer still survive. It is a long and hard road, this way of the Warrior. Along it lie pain, and fear, and death. Scant rewards and scanter gratitude. At the end, for most, is an anonymous grave on some windblown battlefield. If they are lucky.
And yet, I fight on. I do not even know why. Perhaps for glory, perhaps for fame, perhaps for money, perhaps for my country, perhaps for my family. Perhaps it is simply all I know how to do. But fight I will. Whether you appreciate it or not. Whether you even notice it or not. I will be out there, on the battle lines. Fighting. Killing. Dying.
I am the Warrior.
I'm gonna throw my lot in with what seems to be the majority and say that while I do not mind when melee classes have some magical abilities that these should be the purview of the hybrid classes and shouldn't be what the warrior is about. The magical abilities the warrior has access to should be entirely limited to abilities granted to him by his own enchanted equipment. Also, I say we should keep the Asian or Eastern inspired "mastery of the body is like magic" themes (chi, deflecting arrows, standing on treetops, jumping hundreds of feet in the air, etc.) limited to the monk.
Finally, I want to add that I hope that the warrior is a good class for melee DPS when not called to tank like he was in EQ. Something that WoW changed about the Warrior (which other MMOs coppied) was that tank classes like the Warrior should do low damage to respect the trinity class design. Thing is EQ's trinity class design wasn't tank, healer, and dps it was tank, healer, and support with dps fitting in as a limited form of support. Warriors in EQ did a lot of melee damage. Not as much as a rogue or monk, but certainly more than a ranger.
MyNegation said:i hope not.
i dont want to see "hammer that grows in size" or any other "eastern" mmo tropes on my melees.
there are plenty of unique moves for melee classes,
rogues have poisons, saps, backstabs, garotte attacks, vulnerability strikes .
warrios have kicks, shield bashes, charges, shield walls, cleaves and morale cries (shouts).
rangers have varios percision shots, pin shot, cripple shot, set trap, camouflage, etc.
lets not push unnesesary magic to pure melee classes, there are plenty "spellsword" classes, you have paladin and you have dire lord and even the monk.
Agreeing on the warrior, however not on the ranger/monk. Monks are to me, the physical quintessence and all they produce is non magical by nature, as it requires neither words, gestures or component to trigger.
The ranger on the other side, is more than a frontal rogue, and ties itself to some roots in nature magic.
I guess the main point i am saying is that there can be a reason why warriors would have mana. All creatures great and small should have mana in a fantasy world. To fully shun mana would be akin to never wearing magical armor or other magical artifacts. Its counter intuitive of the lore.
kreed99 said:I guess the main point i am saying is that there can be a reason why warriors would have mana.
Certainly, I completely agree with this statement. There can also be reasons why they don't or can't.
kreed99 said:All creatures great and small should have mana in a fantasy world. To fully shun mana would be akin to never wearing magical armor or other magical artifacts. Its counter intuitive of the lore.
This is debatable. It completely depends on the setting. And while I would agree with you in Pantheon's case based on what was originally discussed in the old talks and podcasts from nearly half a decade ago, I for one haven't seen any evidence nor heard any talk about the old colored mana system in at least three years, and assume that it is no longer a thing. Granted I don't follow Pantheon very closely, only popping in every few months to read news posts, watch streams, and catch up on forum talk, so it's entirely possible that I've missed all the more recent talk about it.
It really just depends on the setting. The Game of Thrones world contains magic but it's rare and isn't something most people in that setting can utilize or access, and even in worlds where magic is fairly common there are almost always rules to it's use and/or people who simply cannot use it. Take Greyhawk, the official setting for D&D from 1972 - 2008, as an example.
Greyhawk is a high fantasy world, meaning that magic is fairly common and the average peasant is expected to understand that it exists and has potentially had some aspect of his life affected by it in one way or another. Even so, to actually use magic in Greyhawk you need one or more of the following to be true:
In some settings magic is something that anyone can be trained in, while in others some/most people simply cannot learn magic because for one reason or another they don't have the connection to the mana or deities. Some setting use a mix.
Personally, I like it when there are some restrictions on who can and cannot learn how to work magic. If everyone is fueled by magical ability then it undermines character stories of people who become great because of or in spite of their magical talents or lack thereof. Because when everyone's super, no one is.
kreed99 said:In my mind a world of magic would have mana just flowing through everything. From trees to snakes to stone walls. IDK maybe im just overthinking it.
You sir are thinking of the Force :-)
Yoda Quote: "For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."
Of course I hope the Melee's in the game are not just rip offs of Jedi.
I do though like the idea that all the Characters in the game are somehow beyond just a normal person in the world, with some sort of 'super-human' element to them. Maybe the fighters don't use mana and cast spells like a wizard, or call down divine aid like a cleric or paladin, or call the spirits like a shaman, or bend nature like a druid. But the physical fighters in the game should have some sort of power within them that allows them to use skills that are more than just what any street guard could ever do. This is what makes them the heroes. It's why they grow in strength/power as they progress. This innate power is growing and learning and advancing.
Maybe they use mana too like the casters, or maybe it's just Energy, or chi or some other word. Or maybe the class will not use any energy pool at all but instead is build around cooldowns. But I hope that it's not just kicks and bashes or the like.
Just my 2¢
The recent class reveals answered a lot of questions for me. I can see how they are tackling this issue. Good job VR!
Edit: I was actually thinking more like Final Fantasy 7 Gaia Mana not The Force, but they are similar i guess.
Mana is pretty much just "power" isn't it? Whether magical, mystical, physical, meta-physical, holy, spiritual or whatever it can be seen as a resource for abilities in our characters depending on class.
For melee classes there are a lot of potential power sources that could be used like traditional spell mana.
Stamina, Endurance, Focus, Rage, Chi, Fervour. Momentum seems a little odd for a ranger - I would perhaps have preferred focus, but *shrug* it's just a name really.
There is a whole 'thing' between western and eastern styles - the eastern certainly seems to prefer extravagent and I much prefer the more realistic and subtle western high fantasy, but as for mechanics and tactics I would really like to see more from melee classes than is traditional.
Melee could be much more interesting without being over-the-top.
I'm thinking melee can come with a variety of combat moves (animations) rather than particle-effect magic flashes (e.g. extravagant as disposalist says).
The monk already have some of this in the animations, e.g. the kicks and jabs.
Certainly other melee classes could have animations and such that look good, but at the same time doesn't create tonnes of pixie-dust spewing all over. E.g. different animations for striking with spears and rapiers compared to shortswords and falchions, and differenty styles if using shield comparative to using a two-handed weapon. Various melee animated moves could make the melee classes look very awesome, while mages, druids and other such casters would have very simple animations as they are not trained in the same way as fighters, rogues and brawlers.
I would love to see warriors with animations where you visibly see them feint an attack, or hook a shield with an axe and leave the enemy vulnerable as a 'debuff' attack and many, many other types of martial combat moves that could be animated. That would make your warrior or rogue feel more engaged in the battle instead of just a simple "slash" animation.
tehtawd said:I wanted to bring up one of my biggest fears for this game. And it stems from how the ‘western’ audience usually views their melee classes as mundane.
We are playing a fantasy game which includes fantastical powers which you can control. Magic exists, monsters exist, and you are a part of this world of supernatural things and can take part in those exciting things. But, if you pick the wrong class … you get to watch the world around you enjoy in these wonderful spell effects and supernatural abilities but not take part in it because you picked ‘the warrior’.
Which immediately raises the question: Why did you freely choose the warrior? Shouldn’t you have freely chosen a class that uses magic?
Warriors don’t use magic just like wizards aren’t muscle-bound gladiators who swing giant two-handed swords around. This is the whole purpose behind classes.
In Western games we see a bigger trend towards stripping the ‘magic’ out of the melee classes. No spell effects, no spells to cast, and they get abilities which talk about ‘technique’ and ‘strength’. There is not much suspension of disbelief when overcoming your obstacles isn’t something fantastic, it’s just hard work in typical fashion.
That’s because technique, strength, melee weapons, and armor are the things that define a “warrior.” Just like robes, knowledge, spells, and staves define what a “wizard” is.
As an example. A mage might walk into a situation and do the unbelievable by freezing their enemy solid and then shattering them. In the same situation the warrior just hits the thing with a hammer over and over.
Yes, because that’s what warriors do…
If you want to argue for a HYBRID class (Warrior/Mage)—which is found in western RPGs like D&D, then I’m on board. However, I disagree with your idea of redefining the warrior class.
While I'm sympathetic to your wish of less mundane classes, on the other side of the coin, for many people that is precisely the point.
There are people like wizards who meddle and try to harness things that they probably shouldn't.
There are people who sell their souls for power over the dead.
People who rely on the power of their deities.
And then there's that crazy guy/girl with the sword, the warrior, who literally just trained. And trained. He's sacrificed nothing and doesn't rely on anything but him or herself. And they do just fine, amazingly.
Secondly, if everything is magical, then actually nothing is magical.
Hello Necro’d thread,
Firstly I wanted to point out one of the points or exercises of this thread was to point out culture differences (East vs West) and challenge established tropes. Manofyesterday to respond with an attitude of what I can only imagine as: “No duh, you should know this.” Is actually telling me I did not do a good enough job explaining … everything. Bad on me. And Rain stating ‘if everything is magical then nothing is magical’ is taking this way too far. Think of it like ‘X-Men’: diversity. So bad on me for not explaining my points clearly.
Let me try again, please.
I will start with what I remember from ‘Mrs Male’ characters as described on feminist frequency (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Edgk9RxP7Fm7vjQ1d-cDA)
Mrs Male characters in a nutshell are characters who are exactly like their male counterpart but female. There are numerous examples but one is an example made from a game called Scribblenaughts. The main character has some absurdly number of brothers (I’ll say 50) 50 brothers and one sister. Each of the main characters brothers is different than the other: one is a firefighter, one a police man, another is a doctor etc. But the main characters sister is nothing but a female version of the main character. The important part here is this Mrs Male character has no purpose, no design which enables them to be something more than just female.
This disenfranchises the character from being more. It establishes the thought that the only purpose or the destiny of this character is something shallow and mundane. Why can’t she be a marine? Or a teacher? Now let’s take the feelings you should likely have for this trope and extend that thinking to the westernized ‘warrior’ class.
A warrior doesn’t get to develop into something more. They are in effect cut off from development because of what? An underdog story? Whatever the ‘reason’ is, it doesn’t hold ground for me and is often something people find difficult to explain. It is as if people are ‘reaching’ to give their own explanation the weight and ‘realness’ it lacks on its own. And that is fine, maybe it’s me. When I ask ‘why in a world of magic would there be an option to pick somebody who cannot manipulate this simple element?’ I am met with very tropish reasoning. I’ve played warrior in D&D, Everquest, World of Warcraft—I have gravitated towards these classes for years of my gaming life. I have experience with what I’m talking about.
I feel like Warrior is a blank sheet of paper on the desk of a designer and then the question is asked, “Now, what makes this warrior unique?”. This begins the process of creating Paladin, Dire Lord, Fae Knight, other ‘Oath Paladins’ (Oath of Ancients!!), Dragon Knight, Eldritch Knight, Blackguard (ETC). And if the ‘warrior’ does not get to advance the question becomes, “How can this person survive in this world?”. The real question should be ‘Why?’. Why dumb down the world so the Warrior can survive? Or why make design choices which are more akin to ‘excuses’ for why this person can survive.
Now to be perfectly honest, forums, I’m done with this topic. I’ve seen how the attitudes of the responders have become short, rude, and sometimes off-topic. I wish when I posted this originally I could have facilitated a more positive environment to avoid what is happening now. Then again, I see that a lot in other threads, maybe the community is becoming bitter.
-Todd
I don't sense bitterness, sure some people have snarky responses, but thats gonna happen anywhere. Maybe there is an internal filter showing the bitterness of the world more clearly? I am glad you reoutlined your point in more detail. That explains a lot more of what you had intended. To revisit the subject of the original post, i am in the camp that all melee should have magic - A higher purpose so to speak. With the recent reveals i feel they are taking a proper step in this direction with resource management. Will any system be perfect? No. I am excited to see what they have instore for the Tanking classes with the upcoming reveals. I secretly want to see a halfling warrior kicking butt and taking names.