Hello forums.
What do you think of the idea of removing health, mana and debuffs from the party UI and making this information over the head of players?
This would help healers and support classes need to care about their positioning to other players and panning their camera correctly. Getting a healer off of the user interface and into the game is a big deal and I think this is what it will take.
There can still be recognition a player is getting hit, or has died. And you can still use the ui to target and heal, but without actually looking at the player and seeing their healthbar above their head you could be making a mistake in how injured they are.
Think about this change in the way we benefit from the removal of the map. We gain more by doing this.
Sent via mobile
-Todd
-edit, updated now that i'm home. FYI There is more info on my next post below.
Wasn't there a toggle for that in Original EQ ? I remember having to look around at each player because their health was above their head instead of on the ui. So you had to pan around to see everyone, which took a lot of talent to be honest, becuase you had to be quick on the heals.
tehtawd said:What do you think of the idea of removing health, mana and debuffs from the party UI?
This would help healers and support classes need to care about their positioning to other players and panning their camera correctly. Getting a healer off of the user interface and into the game is a big deal and I think this is what it will take.
There can still be recognition a player is getting hit, or has died. And you can still use the ui to target and heal, but without actually looking at the player you could be making a mistake in how injured they are.
Think about this change in the way we benefit from the removal of the map. We gain more by doing this.
-Todd
My question with this is what are you actually proposing? Surely just hiding all information about health and mana isn't the solution. I think this causes way more issues than it solves. I can appreciate the idea of wanting healers more engaged with the action and less with the ui, but this feels like half an idea to me. Just blindly throwing heals at a player that you think might be injured enough seems horribly inefficient, especially in a game that revolves around resource management.
Do you intend that players have their health displayed as floating tiles? Or able to see hps when they click on a party member? Without the other half of this I can't agree with your assertion that "we gain more by doing this." Though I think that the general premise is sound, there just has to be more to it then removing vital information for the person charged with keeping the group alive.
I hope my response doesn’t read as condescending; that was certainly not my intention.
Hello again,
I am home now so I edited the post above to include the very important 'over the head' ui. (sorry!)
To reiterate the point is to get healers to stop using the group UI so much for knowing who to heal and instead looking for them within the game to see what their over the head health/mana says. While I know this is a stretch because I myself don't want to see a 40man raid fill my screen with bars, I still think this is what it would take to get players OFF the ui and into the game more.
Lets compare gameplay here.
A DPS uses their camera to pan around looking for hostile NPC's or favorable targets. They select the target that suits them and uses their abilities hopefully from an advantageous position. There is no 'nearbye mobs' UI they can select on and press their abilities. This in a sense is what healers get to play with instead of playing 'the game' that everyone else does.
So again, instead of letting the UI rule the game for them, take whatever they are focused on within the UI and put it on the screen. IE, health and mana above the heads of players.
Ways to get this to 'look' good would be the following
The party UI can help trigger players to look for the player through visual Que's IE: when a player is getting hit the players name shows a small flash/shake or changes color momentarily.
This will take some work to implement, but would solve a LOT of problems most MMORPG's have with healers being 'boring' to play.
I think healers are "boring" to play for some people for entirely different reasons than health bars.
I think in general the job requires a particular type of personality in order to be good/efficient at the job, that type of personality and what they seek out of gameplay is different from the general personalities that find DPS (which is a much more inclusive role and generally through low end to mid tier more forgiving aspect) interesting. DPS is in general (and utility to a lesser degree, but... not usually) less responsible for failure, or atleast there is a perception of responsibility that usually rides somewhere like Tank > Healer = CC/Utility > DPS. That "responsibility" for failure part perceived or real, is what i think makes people not want to roll the Tank/Heals/CCutility type classes in most games. Also the fact, unless a skilled player is paying attention, when those things are done well, its really hard to tell. Unless you really microscope an encounter its hard to be like "yeh if soandso hadn't stepped up and did this we would have wiped hard" Skilled players catch stuff like that, but not the average player.
DPS however is easily measured and such there is a perception that more is better (and it usually is...). So people are naturally going to gravitate towards a role where they can be like "rawr i did 20k deepus suck it". Hell i've done that on my cleric and paladin on EQ, even though that wasn't my role.
Now, I like the suggestion if toggleable (very key part because i will turn them off) displays of group mates HP bars over their heads (extend it to defensive targets list, or an extended targets list like EQ has? throwing that out there), however to me, for my gameplay/playstyle, I think id just turn it off, because I hate rando clutter on my screen with details i dont really care about or redundant details (if its shown in the group screen, which it really needs to be IMHO!) Id just as soon not see them.
BUT if that makes it more interesting for some players, or that strikes someones fancy that would be great and i don't see any harm in it. BUT if the sole reason is to make "healers less boring" I don't think the perception they are boring is going to change easily. Its just... Most people don't want to be held accountable for the failure of a group or raid.
I mean being a (good) healer means you've gotta be responsible for the very lives and existences of your friends (and possibly family) in game. Most people aren't ready for that kind of commitment in their offtime. There really isn't a way to change that aspect of the job.
I agree @Sunmistress. And in all honesty, when healing I want as little clutter as possible. I generally streamline my ui on my healers as much as possible, and I think extra nameplates everywhere will be bothersome to me. I used a /hideallcorpse macro for my healers, whereas I didn't mind bodies everywhere on other toons. I could see how I would actually like the nameplates with hp info more while playing other archetypes than healer, if I’m honest.
Good points guys, thanks for coming back and chatting with me by the way. *cheers*
You know I also think it takes a specific kind of mind-set to be a healer. I agree with this 100%. But I also think things can be done 'better' to also make healing more fun. Like most things in life it isn't 100% one way or the other. There might be a percentage of players who think playing a healer isn't 'fantastic' but they want to try it out, but when they realize they are stuck playing a UI and never actually look around, or pan their camera, or position themselves in strategic ways ... they just feel like a turret stuck in the mud and think 'well this isn't for me!'. This isn't a failure of the 'healer' part of your usual trinity, its a failure on how the 'healer' role was used in the game. We can learn a lot by opening our eyes and looking where the success is inside the game and trying to pull that over to the healers.
I know that isn't entirely popular, again, nothing is ever 100% one way or another, but I feel it is very necessary.
@ Nikademis
Oh yea, name-plate clutter drives me nuts. I wish there was a good way of doing nameplates. I outlined some idea's, but it's really going to take an artists and developers touch to make the UI and the over/head UI as non-obstructive as possible.
-Todd
I see what you are saying todd. I like the idea, but I would have to see it in action. Could be more interesting to have to do something besides playing wack-a-mole will red bars in a group/raid UI.
I see your idea being good in a group, but bad in a raid. too many people in a raid to see all health bars.
The other downside would be is two bars lined up on top of each other due to camera angle, the one in the back could die simply because the one over it was covering it up.
Your idea is great. Good to think outside the box. I am just not sure if it would work.
As far as I can see, this game is basically EQ1 remade with new graphics but adding Progeny, climates, colored mana, a tweak on spells, and situational gear being important, the core game isn't changing much.
I'm not saying those new add on systems are bad, in fact, they sound very fun. I just mean the core classes are basically EQ1 clones with nothing much different, going by twitch streams.
By not much different, I mean, clerics heal bars, warriors taunt and kick, rangers go down, chanters mez, etc basics are unchanged. Again, I am not complaining. i like eq 1. best game EVER made, and Brad made it. I'm happy.
fazool said:sorry but I hate this idea - I hate the whole concept of anything over a character/player/npc head. It's like the question mark and exclamation point of quest NPC's - I think it totally spoils immersion
Fazool, thanks for joining us.
What do you feel like when you select an NPC and see their life-bar above their head? Do you turn this off when you are playing? I appreciate your honesty in your opinion, but, do you see the merit of what is trying to be accomplished with this? Do you have any suggestions which would help you?
-Todd
I don't want HP bars above mobs heads either. I have a Target bar for a reason. If they aren't my current target I do not care.
I place my personal HP bar and the Target bar Dead center of screen though. No matter what i do i can't avoid looking at them.
IF its something folks want, cool do it, but make it one of those things i can turn off. Mainly because i am a get off my lawn type of player i'd like to leave the option open for others, but i doubt ill take advantage of it, unless it provides a clear inarguable advantage/new feature.
IF its something folks want, cool do it, but make it one of those things i can turn off. Mainly because i am a get off my lawn type of player i'd like to leave the option open for others, but i doubt ill take advantage of it, unless it provides a clear inarguable advantage/new feature.
The problem with this being a feature you can turn off is it can be an advantage to have it off and use the party UI. The function of the over-head health bars is to give incentive for the healer to pan their camera, reposition and 'look' for the players in their party to find out what health they are at and if they need healing. If you had health being displayed by the party UI, you wouldn't need to care so much about where your allies are.
The alternative to this is really the removal of health from party UI, the removal of over-head health bars, and force healers to manually click on the player they want to heal within the game. Which means ... healers would need to care even more about where they are in position to their comrads. Tanks and CC would need to care more about positioning themselves so the healer can easily click on them.
Now, this sounds scary but think of it from a DPS perspective.
DPS do not have a user interface with all the aggro'd mobs they can cycle through. They have to click on individual mobs to see their health (unless #above head hp bars). So when you think about it, it's rather balanced in the way we compare this. Both healers and others have to click on the enemy they want to interact with. If you are checking the health or status of another target, you have to click on it-there is no special UI to tell you the information at a glance- you have to be 'in the game looking' for this information.
Honestly, above the head hp bars are a lot easier to work with. No party UI and no over-head hp makes the game a little more difficult actually. I personally like it, but then again I don't think my forum buddies will like it.
I think the best thing to do here is think about what we 'gain' by removing the map function.
When the map is removed, we care more about our surroundings, we are more connected with the world. This same principle overlaps onto this topic.
-Todd
tehtawd said:IF its something folks want, cool do it, but make it one of those things i can turn off. Mainly because i am a get off my lawn type of player i'd like to leave the option open for others, but i doubt ill take advantage of it, unless it provides a clear inarguable advantage/new feature.
The problem with this being a feature you can turn off is it can be an advantage to have it off and use the party UI. The function of the over-head health bars is to give incentive for the healer to pan their camera, reposition and 'look' for the players in their party to find out what health they are at and if they need healing. If you had health being displayed by the party UI, you wouldn't need to care so much about where your allies are.
The alternative to this is really the removal of health from party UI, the removal of over-head health bars, and force healers to manually click on the player they want to heal within the game. Which means ... healers would need to care even more about where they are in position to their comrads. Tanks and CC would need to care more about positioning themselves so the healer can easily click on them.
Now, this sounds scary but think of it from a DPS perspective.
DPS do not have a user interface with all the aggro'd mobs they can cycle through. They have to click on individual mobs to see their health (unless #above head hp bars). So when you think about it, it's rather balanced in the way we compare this. Both healers and others have to click on the enemy they want to interact with. If you are checking the health or status of another target, you have to click on it-there is no special UI to tell you the information at a glance- you have to be 'in the game looking' for this information.
Honestly, above the head hp bars are a lot easier to work with. No party UI and no over-head hp makes the game a little more difficult actually. I personally like it, but then again I don't think my forum buddies will like it.
I think the best thing to do here is think about what we 'gain' by removing the map function.
When the map is removed, we care more about our surroundings, we are more connected with the world. This same principle overlaps onto this topic.
-Todd
Healers already have enough responsibilities. IMO.
DPS should be assisting not clicking through a wave of targets. If /assist isn't a thing any shape or form well thats a design flaw IMO. I could/will make a logical and thought out reasoning behind /assist if it comes up as not a thing. Whether a potential target has 5% or 100% doesn't or shouldn't matter to them, What they need to focus on is what the MA's target is.
Thats my inelegant response. You've put alot of time and effort into the thought process behind this it appears, so i feel bad leaving such a simple response, but thats what i think.
Thats my inelegant response. You've put alot of time and effort into the thought process behind this it appears, so i feel bad leaving such a simple response, but thats what i think.
No worries, I'm actually pretty beat, it's like 11:30am and I had to wake up at like 4am this morning. oye. See ya tomorrow friend.
catchin some Z's
-Todd
I enjoyed EQ healing without all the darn hp bars. You healed certain people because you knew the fight and you know by the animations (or /raid screaming oh gawd heal me!! spam) that someone needs a heal. Then I played WoW. Whack-a-mole. Worst healing design ever created. Ever. Stare at 25 hp bars and click the bars. Oh.. yay. If the game design avoids all the twitch filler then there is no need for the bars. Pay attention to the fight and you will know who needs what.
Side note: Off topic, but thank GOD that Pantheon is limiting the abilities. Facerolling 198576123948576128561284612841824123786 on EQ2 sucks donkey cheese. It's not fun. It's tedious.
Then I played WoW. Whack-a-mole. Worst healing design ever created. Ever. Stare at 25 hp bars and click the bars. Oh.. yay.
Hi Retsof,
Yea, I totally get what you are saying.
And if you think having a toggle gives someone an advantage over another then clearing your choice isn't a very well balanced one.
Evening Vandraad,
I'm not a fan of toggling something which makes the game easier on and off. But I understand people are used to something and they don't want to lose it, so giving the toggle would help them.
-Todd
I am a fan of offering healers a way to get off the UI and eyes back into the action though i do definitely enjoy healing in its current form but i understand this is a regular enough comment from players for somthing they would like to change, ESO went in one direction, i wasnt a fan of their system because the control you wanted to have over your spells wasnt there. Maybe a hover your mouse over player sort of thing, it uses both fight intuition (by knowing who is taking damage without the aid of bars) and also keeps health hidden until you hover over the player your interested in seeing health from. Again same problems as with all the name plate suggestions being in raid situations with too much crowding.
Maybe instead of a bar above their head there is a little coloured dot, easily visible but semi transparent that changes between 3 colours as the health level changes.
Green for 65% and up
Orange between 35% - 65%
Red below 35%
This is then more of a discreet indicator of the players health status, takes up minimal room on screen and doesnt clutter an area with a long bar. Maybe you would also have a colour for full 100% health and also dead :p
I think we should keep workshopping ideas and who knows we might be able to combine part of one persons concept with another and end up with the ultimate healers health bar system!
Seems like it would be kind if a nightmare for a healer to be reliant on the nameplates to do their job. First you'd have to shuffle around to get the right angle to be able to see the right person's nameplate without it being obscured by the other nameplates. Then you'd have to manage to target the right person (if you noticed that person needed a heal). Sure, you might still have the group list in the UI (maybe?) but you'd have to correlate the nameplate that was dropping health with the name, then get click right name in the group list..... damn, he's dead.
Seems like it would be kind if a nightmare for a healer to be reliant on the nameplates to do their job. First you'd have to shuffle around to get the right angle to be able to see the right person's nameplate without it being obscured by the other nameplates. Then you'd have to manage to target the right person (if you noticed that person needed a heal). Sure, you might still have the group list in the UI (maybe?) but you'd have to correlate the nameplate that was dropping health with the name, then get click right name in the group list..... damn, he's dead.
To me, what you just described Feyshtey, is what I already do when I'm playing a DPS or even Tank and figthing a group of NPC's. It's so common in fact. When you flip that light on and say 'ok now do that with healers' everyone loses their minds.
That totally sounds like a meme. lol!
Hokanu, how are ya bud?
In another thread I suggested having the over-head names of the players do just what you are saying. Green, Yellow, Orange, Red, Dead. The party UI can still be clicked to select the player and see their actual health, but the player themselves needs to be 'in the action' looking at their team, positioning themselves to heal their team.
Maybe a hover your mouse over player sort of thing
Healing in Tera was much like this. You pressed the heal (or pressed and held?) and panned your target bar 'over' or 'through' the X players you wanted to heal, then press the button again (or let go of it). At higher levels you could heal more players than just 2. Damn ... I loved healing in Tera. I'd log on and play my mystic right now if the game wasn't so flippin easy and lonely.
-Todd
tehtawd said:To me, what you just described Feyshtey, is what I already do when I'm playing a DPS or even Tank and figthing a group of NPC's. It's so common in fact. When you flip that light on and say 'ok now do that with healers' everyone loses their minds.
Not exactly losing my mind. I'm not a healer :)
The difference between the DPS/Tanks and the Healers, is that the DPS/Tanks can normally just cycle thru the mobs with tab or something. I suppose it'd be just as simple to cycle thru friendlies with '~' or something. But that'd be a pretty uncomfortable change to ask people to make who often have a pretty ingrained muscle memory that they rely on. And it's just simply more cumbersome than "left-click , 1" to target and heal an ally, on something that's often time-critical.
I would not be in favor of putting health/mana over each player. It woud just be additional and unnessecary clutter.
In EQ, when you got into raiding, people would remove Last Names or Guild Names, or the entire names of players, and turn off particle effects, just to help clean up the screen so you can actually see what your fighting instead of a mass of overlapping names and sparkly effects. Putting the health bar overhead would just be another thing you'd need to /remove.
I played a cleric in Project 99. There were some casual raids when I wouldn't even be in a group, so I would have no indication of anybodies health. I'd just set up hotkeys for each of the tanks and enchanters /target chanter01. /target tank02. And just cycle thru those to keep an eye on there health. Or have the /assist mob set up so I could target whomever was being beaten.
I guess what Im trying to say, as long as /target and /assist are implemented in Pantheon, over the head health/mana will just be /removed when you progress further into the game.
And I always felt the fewer in game indicators there are, the better the game will be. AE target rings. Health/mana above mobs heads. ? and !, reticules, damage #s flying all over the screen.
Get rid of most all of that fluff and let us enjoy the amazing scenery and ruins and dungeons without those distractions.