Raive said:From a tank perspective, our class is not played as much simply because there has always been less emphasis placed on playing the class vs managing the encounter. MMOS have yet to really "solve" this so it leads to folks who play tanks to be considered as "those who don't know how to dps/heal well" or "those who want a guaranteed spot since no one plays it".
Each role brings its importance and you can weigh each of them however you like, but when it comes down to the bleeding edge content (if it exists), all of them are equally important. It all comes down to all aspects of encounters being just as risky and as rewarding on all fronts and paying special attention to detail on all fronts in order to perform the job appropriately. So far that hasn't really been achieved 100% in my opinion.
Is the bolded part really a thing? I was always respected for being willing to tank and I don't know anyone you thinks dps is harder than tanking...
Hokanu said:jimm0thy said:I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with Sevens here. The "more people play dps than healers/tanks" argument that tehtawd is making is common knowledge, but the reason isn't due to healers/tanks being un-fun or not having a full 'toolkit' its because dps is simply the easier job. And claiming things need to be fixed for the soloing healer/tank ... well I'm sorry but why would someone play a healer/tank if they want to solo?
I find healing to be fun and enjoyable the way it is. I roll a healer because I want to heal in groups, not because I want to dps.
Like you have said i also would add people tend to steer clear of rolling healers and tanks because they are nervous about being responsible for a massive stuff up if they make a mistake or lose concentration. Whenever i log on to play a Healer, Tank or pure CC i always have a little knot in my stomache that is saying you better not mess this up because everyone is depending on you, where as when i am playing DPS I know i can just sit back and enjoy the ride as long as i am in touch with my tank and targets. I personally thrive on the thrill of responsibility in groups, i love being the one who saves the day and I generally dont play MMO's to relax but to embrace the nerves that come with knowing a small mistake could let everyone down. The only time healing is not fun for me is when the group is SO GOOD that you can almost turn off and only need to throw a heal here and there and then there just isnt that much to do besides burn your mana on stuns and dps, but with a group that is challenging themselves with content or maybe not playing very well together the task of healing and holding the group together for me is incredibly fun and rewarding!
DPSing well is not easy as such but comes with less responsibility to the people around you, of course your responsibility to be high dps while being resource efficient and not constantly taking agro off the tank is still a very important responsibility.
This is a solid summation of how I feel about healers and tanks. I almost always main one of the two, but when I feel like relaxing without the pressure of being a huge staple of the group, I would usually log on one of my DPS alts.
@Tehtawd, I think you're trying to have an open discussion to get the temperature of how the community feels about taking a different approach on healing, but I think, inadvertently, you put a lot of people on guard with your approach. You took such a hardline, and made a handful of statements that you felt were facts, and many of us felt were opinions that it almost felt like you we’re arguing from a position of superior knowledge. I absolutely don’t think that was your intent, you seem like a very nice person, but, from my perspective, it seems like that may have been where things came of the tracks a little.
All in all, these discussions are good because it either moves the community forward in a new direction, solidifies a hard stance on the subject, or allows for compromise on both sides. The end result, hopefully, gives development an idea of where the majority of the community (on these boards at least) stands.
Mekada said:Raive said:From a tank perspective, our class is not played as much simply because there has always been less emphasis placed on playing the class vs managing the encounter. MMOS have yet to really "solve" this so it leads to folks who play tanks to be considered as "those who don't know how to dps/heal well" or "those who want a guaranteed spot since no one plays it".
Each role brings its importance and you can weigh each of them however you like, but when it comes down to the bleeding edge content (if it exists), all of them are equally important. It all comes down to all aspects of encounters being just as risky and as rewarding on all fronts and paying special attention to detail on all fronts in order to perform the job appropriately. So far that hasn't really been achieved 100% in my opinion.
Is the bolded part really a thing? I was always respected for being willing to tank and I don't know anyone you thinks dps is harder than tanking...
Unfortunately yes and it is a HALF truth from from what I have come across. What is true is that tanking in MMOs has been a more less involved role with the class itself vs knowing the encounter and managing it
tehtawd said:My biggest mistake was saying 'healers are not played as often due to many reasons including they are not fun to play.'
I don't mean to sound all nitpicky but the difference would be I think if you said you don't find healers fun if/when they have these or those mechanics etc. Broad statements have a tendency to backfire. I do think your points are interesting, if only because I feel so differently about many of them. I don't like twitch gameplay (and I know you're not advocating that but still.. I think you prefer it slightly more twitchy than I do :D). I love the serenity of a little distance, observing the whole of it as a healer. Your other topic about UI changes had me puzzled, I've never felt disconnected from my group or raid because of watching healthbars and such. To be truthful, I feel more disconnected from the whole picture as a dps (I have a tendency to tunnelvision a bit there.. *coughs*) while as a healer I've always been very alert on adds, other groups not doing well, having the main tanks, enchanters, other healers all on /target etc. I'd usually be in the front group while raiding in EQ with our MT, main puller, and an awesome shammy healer as back up and buffer/debuffer and it was an amazingly fun experience each time.
I think actually we agree in essence, that it is vital that there will be several healers, all equal but very different in gameplay. Quite a challenge but yeah, it's been done before and I also have faith in these great devs :).
And I hope for the tanks out there than Pantheon will offer them a chance to shine once again, instead of being a target for abuse as they more often seem to be these days. My guess is people need to die very fast again, that should keep them in line a bit more :).
Tanks have my utmost respect, it's the one job I've never dared to try as I perpetually get lost everywhere!
@Sunmistress
I think we seem to be at cross-purposes and not actually in complete disagreement.
I am happy to have, say, 3 healer classes:
1. call it 'cleric' has mainly direct heals and little else apart from undead DD/hp buffs
2. call it 'shaman' has less direct healing options (may be preventative or HoT rather than just straight +hp), but has utility to offset (such as buffs/slows/debuffs)
3. call it 'Druid' has also less direct healing (mainly HoT say) but has other utility to offset this (such as evac, DmgShield, SoW)
While #1 will have the strongest PURE direct healing ability, #2 and #3 will still be welcome in groups since they mitigate their different heal style, or weaker direct heals, with other utilities that offset this. It just means the group has to know how to use their 'healer type'. It also means the healer has to know his group type/composition and know his own class strengths/weaknesses to maximise this.
If the Shaman or Druid just spams heals as if he were a Cleric, he will be in trouble. If he uses the other utilities he gets, they will be in just as good a position, in some situations even better (tho for *some* group compositions and certain mob types they may well be at a disadvantge compared to another setup).
What I WAS saying to avoid was giving ANY class too many options from too many toolkits. If you had a class with a bit of 'everything' then you no longer have unique classes and you no longer have roles. You also allow the classic 'Mage in plate armour with heals as well as fireballs' situation....'
Hope that clarifies what I may not have articulated well earlier.
The problem playing healers is, that healers have a very "binary" gameplay. A lag spike in your internet connection can easily cause a wipe. And you have to manage your heal ressources and you have to stay in LoS to your tank etc. And there are often situations, that people die and a healer can not do anything to prevent this. Because the people are out of range or the healer is silenced or the healing spell has a cast time and the people died before the spell was out etc. I guess, for many people this causes too much stress and the choose DD classes. No lag problematic, no responsibility for other people, easy solo gameplay/farming, not a first target in pvp etc.
Greetings
Evoras said:@Sunmistress
I think we seem to be at cross-purposes and not actually in complete disagreement.
I am happy to have, say, 3 healer classes:
1. call it 'cleric' has mainly direct heals and little else apart from undead DD/hp buffs
2. call it 'shaman' has less direct healing options (may be preventative or HoT rather than just straight +hp), but has utility to offset (such as buffs/slows/debuffs)
3. call it 'Druid' has also less direct healing (mainly HoT say) but has other utility to offset this (such as evac, DmgShield, SoW)
While #1 will have the strongest PURE direct healing ability, #2 and #3 will still be welcome in groups since they mitigate their different heal style, or weaker direct heals, with other utilities that offset this. It just means the group has to know how to use their 'healer type'. It also means the healer has to know his group type/composition and know his own class strengths/weaknesses to maximise this.
If the Shaman or Druid just spams heals as if he were a Cleric, he will be in trouble. If he uses the other utilities he gets, they will be in just as good a position, in some situations even better (tho for *some* group compositions and certain mob types they may well be at a disadvantge compared to another setup).
What I WAS saying to avoid was giving ANY class too many options from too many toolkits. If you had a class with a bit of 'everything' then you no longer have unique classes and you no longer have roles. You also allow the classic 'Mage in plate armour with heals as well as fireballs' situation....'
Hope that clarifies what I may not have articulated well earlier.
Alright we are roughly in agreement I think.
Though ill expand on some of the stuff i touched on earlier, and just a general thought on how I would personally like to see the healer classes work (in list format like yours)
1) Cleric
- Healing: Mainly done through Direct heals, without a big lulzin10secondsiwin CH, If they get a Heal over time: it should be Worse than Druids/Shaman versions, Not like in EQ where it was better that was silly it left no room for other healers to be best at another style of heal (IMO)
- Damage prevention: Ward (see Panoply of Vie)
- Resurection: Well XP rez is kind of integral
- Death prevention: Divine Intervention
- Utility: Atone, a short duration root, short duration stun, that shieldwall thing
- Buffs: Typical Courage type AC/HP buff
- Damage model: Similar to the EQ model? Yaulp, Proc hammer, Pet hammer (if thats wanted just throwing out there), Rebuke/Wrath
2) Shaman
- Healing: mainly done through Torpor styled HOT
a) Any Large/Quick direct heals should Cannibalize some of the HP of the shaman (adding to the cost of the spell) like the Reckless line in later Era of EQ, which makes them good, but... Dangerous to chain. That way the option to do a life save is there, but it cant just be pewpewd ad nauseum
b) Call the Ancients type group heal:
- Damage prevention: Slow (i think there would be riots without a slow for shaman)
- Resurrection: Spirit Call, Not sure how people feel about XP rez for shaman so IDK, they need the option to bring folks back from the realm of the dead to their body atleast IMO
- Utility: Root, maybe a short duration/long recast Sleep (?)/Totems (those were in class reveal I think or i might be misremembering)
- Buffs: Depends Enchanters/true support classes should have reign over Haste/Avatar type stuff shaman had in EQ IMO
- Damage model: Maybe Wolf pet (if its wanted by folks I could care less), Disease/Poison/Magic curses?
3) Druid
- Healing mainly done through nature based heals (this is where it gets weird, because i think they need reign over).
a) Nature based heal example: Adrenaline Infusion a Hot + proc heal that heals damage, Group heal could be covered by a "rain" type heal
b) Direct heal needs: An ability to make a HOT instantly resolve (on a longish? 30 - 45s recast?) and Quick lifesave thats resource intensive so its an option, but the HOT/Regen style heals are your Sustained healing methods
- Damage Prevention: I liked EQ's ATK debuff concept, Except in harder content (POP+) they were more damage prevention than Slow which doesn't seem fair to shaman, Shield of Thorns type ability, that redirects damage done back onto the aggressor too would be cool
- Resurrection: Call of the Wild, brings someone back to corpse with more mana
- Utility: Snare/Root, Something cool like wall of wind (later EQ druid ability, that pushed back and snared opponents)
- Buffs: Damage shields are cool
- Damage model: I liked the EQ model of Rain nukes personally and it fits with the nature theme, Maybe a Targetted Buff that turns someone into a wolf? whatever
Anyways I am fine with Clerics being "best" at Direct heals basically, But they cant be best at every possible type of heal, and i think Shaman and Druid need their individual domain over a type of heal that is meaningful, but also atleast 1 or 2 options to Save more quickly (i see their heals as a duration thing, where they don't have to cast them as frequently so they can worry about the other abilities in their wheelhouse), Just like a cleric will have HOT's (but they should not be the best at them).
But at the end of the Day all content needs to be able to be healed by all 3 (and with 3 different types of heals, it gives raid guilds incentive to bring one of each, if raiding becomes a major focus). If its not then Why even call them a healer.
Stances could handle some of the balance on utility abilities v healing. This would also leave room for the cleric to contribute meaningfully even if they are not the main healer, though what they would contribute outside of offtanking (they are a plate class after all) and some minor damage i do not know.
Long story Short: In EQ when we started (my old DND group) playing our healer eventually had to switch from Druid too Cleric, because a druid just could not do the job well enough. I don't want to see that happen to her again (she intends to go Druid again I think). And most druids/shaman i knew got overlooked for groups because the classes were spread to thin across things they could do, and were not good enough at Healing to justify using as the Main healer for a group that had any intentions of going hard.
Sunmistress said:Alright we are roughly in agreement I think.
It does seem as though we were in agreement - go figure.
1. Perhaps if Cleric is primarily direct-heal and shaman is primarily Heal-over-time (with fast heals needing cannibalize) then maybe Druids could be some form of pulse heal - either a wave AE heal with each successive wave weaker than last one, or a growth type heal where it slowly gets stronger. Either way - make it different from cleric or shaman (at least a bit) OR give them 2nd best direct heals and second best HoT (where cleric get best direct and shaman get best HoT)... ie 'jack of all trades'.
2. Please please please don't include a Complete-Heal. Have a 'heal 2000' if you must... a heal '10,000' if you really really must.... but NO complete-heal! The level 100 spell might be 'heal 20,000' .... but never, please an unlimited heal! In any event... if the aggro based on healed hp was implemented correctly, a CH should have given the cleric infinte aggro!
Be nice to see what they actaully decide upon for healers.....
.... then wade in with more directed nit-picking hehe!
I played cleric in EQ original and I'm gonna agree with the OP that, yeah, on the whole I would have liked some more stuff to do. I don't think it's an exaggeration to suggest that cleric roles in MMORPGs from that moment forward tended to be high on the responsibilty and need for care and attention and low on the fun and variety.
Now, I and many others enjoyed that level of responsibility and 'meaning' to the role, but, yes I would have loved to have more to do than perfect the timing of my heals and the management of my mana and burn my eyes watching health bars.
When I, eventually, got my pet hammer I was overjoyed and then distraught that it only lasted for the combat and when people said "er, save your mana for heals" when I cast it.
Please, please, please VR, consider something like chanting battle hymns for mana regen instead of sitting on your arse. Please consider allowing worthwhile, if not earth-shattering, DPS while I sing those battle hymns. Please consider damage shields and proc heals when I'm smiting foes. Please allow things like hammer pets and marks and whatnot like in EQ but don't make me wait until level 50 to get them...
Clerics are cool, but, yes they could use some improvement.
I loved playing battle cleric role in Rift... I was not tempted to play cleric again in EQ P99.
From what I've heard so far there appears to be both the concept of a 'plate' and a 'cloth' cleric. Cool! I hope they don't nerf the battle cleric's healing abilities too much...
clerics role in a group should always be to stay out of harms way and maintain the health of everyone in the party. Keep buffs and shields up, use utility spells when needed , but always, always make sure you have enough mana for that "oh **** " moment. When soloing, sure go bang some heads with your hammer or staff, nuke the crap out of whatever stands in your way, heal your way through waves and waves of mobs. In a group though, bring it back to reality, it isn't about what you are able to do while soloing, your obligation as a cleric is to maintain the health , buffs, shields of the group and again the have enough mana set back for that "oh ****' moment. I understand it can get a bit slow when you have a puller that doesn't know how to chain pull, or maybe the dps just isn't there to keep this train moving. It is going to be that way sometime. You will always shine and be appreciated though when someone says, "man , not once did i have to say, buff me, shield please, someone cleanse me, HoT plz" "this cleric is always on his A game" " we would not have survived through that mess without you". You will never hear, "man your cleric dps rocks" :( If it's that much of an itch, maybe, just maybe cleric isn't the class for you... maybe go shaman, or druid :)
I feel like each class should have its own roll. People who enjoy those rolls can play those classes. Lets not reinvent the wheel. Playing a cleric isnt for everyone, nor should it be.
Im not against throwing clerics a bone, but please do not threaten the integrity of group balance by making every class be able to do a little bit of everything. I love the puzzle piece classes. Make us need eachother.
Supply and demand will boost clerics if their popularity is lagging behind. They will be the most popular kid in class on draft day.