Hi, this is a repost from a thought i had in a closed thread today. I think it warrants a discussion of its own.
I think the biggest challenge there will be is, what do you offer players to do while waiting for a group.
Back in the EQ days, you might be on a list in Drezla's room for Jboots, in LGUK on a list to join a camp. It was things we were used to while selling in tunnel and looking for a group (then to run 10 mins plus at times to get there).
People now adays are so used to being able to solo any class to max lvl, it is just a theme park ride to get there. Then you can queue up anywhere in the world for dungeon's and raids without ever having to talk to someone.
I think most of us early adopters want to harken back to the old days, but really think about it. Most of us are quite a bit older, have more responiblites then we did then. and really don't have 30 mins or a hour to form up a group then play for 6 hours or so.
I think the game will need some sort of daily activity to do while you are running to a dungeon, looking for a group, or waiting for your buddies to get on. Something to keep you in game and occupied while you wait. If not people log in for 5 mins get nothing and log out. But a few mins later there are more people looking and the cycle repeats.
I joked around in a facebook post on something similiar for this that the game needs Gems 2 or a ingame card game or something like this to keep people doing something until they can play the game.
I want to group, i don't want to be able to solo everything. That prekunark Rogue that got to 50 said something back in the day.
With short attention spans, i really think there needs to be something to kill time, without people really realizing they are waiting for groups.
The trick, I fear, is to train your newbies in the art of playing in a non-instant-gratification MMO. Thus, the advantage for early adopters will be large number of 'old hands' who can demonstrate by example the core expectations. These need to be reinforced by the game structure, as EQ did. So:
I hope this gives an idea of what I mean in terms of strategy to promote grouping from an early levels, and to train players to go *to* the zone/area they want to hun in *before* LFG. caravaning to keep up with pre-grouped friends, camping at specific points, use of binds etc will cut travel down to a minimum (in general).
PS all for gems-2 if thats what you are advocating :)
PPS possible extras might be 'mapping' skills, creating in-game news articles or guides etc for things players may have open to them to do if there is dead time to kill.
PPPS for the love of mike, PLEASE 'no' to another Theme Park with auto-matching zcross zones/servers that insta-ports you in!
I am just starting to research the game more so I may be showing my ignorance. I think cutting out instancing or minimizing it would assist with this. I remember going to the larger EQ zones where there were tons of grouping options and grouping options as you leveled. There was always waiting for groups but I just killed time chatting. I miss the huge non instanced Unrest, MM, Sol, Guk type zones.
Things to do between groups can be tricky sometimes. Obviously if you have TS goods it's a perfect time to get skillups. If you have stuff to sell and you want to use chat for that, it's boring, but that's an option, buying as well. Hopefully people will be making friends, joining guilds, and possibly some areas will simply have a bunch of people gathered and talking - cities and/or zone lines.
Personally I like the LFG tools. Do note that I do not mean tools that will teleport you to a place, be to the group or dungeon or whatever. I like them because so many times I have wanted to kill in different zones, especially for different [quest] drop camps. Also some zones end up being really crowded when you get there. A tool is not overkill imo because if there isn't one people will resort to a global /lfg channel as we did in EQ - unless the don't make a method for players creating channels. Just like with the AH posting board that has been brought up (not trying to discuss that topic here), it's searchable. The searchable part both for a LFG and LFM part is very helpful in case you don't want to keep up with a lfg channel while doing other stuff. Once you find someone or see a group LFM you still need to send an actual message of course. The tool should never popup for you with messages about finding players etc.
As for low level solo vs group. I spent plenty of time in gfay -> crushbone for leveling my characters. Bats, skeletons, spiders, and I think rats were soloable for the first bit. After that you could find solo orc pawns roaming around the hill. Around the hill area there were also ~2 camps depending on how many a group could handle at once, varying from pawns to centurions and oracles with two more groups up at the CB entrance.
revolw said:A fun tradeskill system would help. But if you are looking for a game you can play for 5 minutes at a time maybe someting turn based would be better, like Civ 5. I wouldn't worry too much about "casual" gamers, too much catering to them makes things come out like WoW.
I am not saying something you can play for 5 mins at a time.
My point is with short attention spans, while people wait for groups give them something to do. That will be the hurdle to keep them in game and waiting for the group, rather than logging out and doing something else because they are bored/not playing the game. Younger generations grew up on theme park mmo's not doing Fear corpse runs at 3 am so your bodys did not rot on a work night.
If not for casual gamers most games would never survive. Any niche game still needs some non hardcore meat and potatoes to play and have fun also, it pays the way for the 1% to have the game they want.
Ashenor said:Younger generations grew up on theme park mmo's not doing Fear corpse runs at 3 am so your bodys did not rot on a work night.
I remember that bullshit. Suicide corpse drags to the ZI were common if we didn't have a good rogue or similar.
Wasn't on work nights for me, due to age. My mom would sometimes let me sleep in and bring me to school late the next day lol. I got lucky with loving parents that would bring dinner down to me on raid nights (loving in normal ways too haha).
A fairly simple solution is to allow people to be able to solo some content at all level ranges in order to feel like they're accomplishing something. By no means do I think soloing should be comparable in exp and rewards to grouping, but it needs to be viable enough so that people can do something while they wait.
Maybe put some events in that let you meet challenges solo that give you fun titles. Some sort of timed trial. Maybe a test of coordination.
I find that if I can't get a group in EQ now (playing on a time locked progression server where soloing exp is utterly horrible), I work tradeskills, I work on quests like the Coldain prayer shawl, etc. Not eveyrone enjoys tradeskills. This is a challenge for sure. I'm not sure what VR can do to resolve it.
hackerssuck said:A fairly simple solution is to allow people to be able to solo some content at all level ranges in order to feel like they're accomplishing something. By no means do I think soloing should be comparable in exp and rewards to grouping, but it needs to be viable enough so that people can do something while they wait.
Certain faction grind mobs that are soloable could be fair or maybe something related to basic TS items similar to how other MMOs had mining etc. Faction grinding, depending on the faction, isn't a crazy bonus for someone to simply farm that area instead of grouping, but it has a benefit beyond a few gold and a tiny amount of exp.
I agree Hackerssuck. I think it is something that will be needed. Some sort of carrot to keep people online while waiting/forming a group (so there is a larger player base to form groups).
I love the group aspect of playing, i still talk to people regularly i met back on Tarew Marr in the early days of EQ from having to have interactions with other players.
zewtastic said:Why should it be resolved? Trying to make a game everything to everyone is usually what screws things up.
Did i say anywhere we need instances, warping around the world, soloing every class to max lvl?
What i am saying is, i don't think the world will be as full and alive if there is nothing outside of tradeskills to do while waiting for a group. Keeping people online and in game doing something while waiting for a group (what this game is all about) is a win.
Most groups back in the day could take from a few mins to a hour to get a spot. Myself like many others, will just form a group rather then wait and recruit what i need. That is not the normal for a lot of players.
Maybe a bounty system hunt daily that you can do, where you might have to run across mutiple zones to find a mob (then is a soloable version), a ingame game, worst case a out of game message when someone sends you a tell for a group if you are tabbed out doing something else.
zewtastic said:Why should it be resolved? Trying to make a game everything to everyone is usually what screws things up.
With all due respect, I did not say anything about making the game all things to all people. Giving someone a chance to progress if they only have 30 minutes to an hour to play is not making a game everything to everyone. I was quite clear that it should not be very rewarding.
Being closed minded about this, and defensive, is not going to do anything to move the discussion forward. It might lead to a game where you have one server with a few hundred people playing though. I really can't see how that does anyone any good. That would mean a very stagnant game with new content coming very slowly if at all.
I wasn't suggesting turning this game into World of Warcraft Online.
I want the money flowing into this game from as many subscribers as possible. I don't want it to end up being a niche game. I don't figure I'll ever recapture the "magic" of when I first logged into Everquest, but I hope this game comes close. I want it to be viable for a long time. Hopefully all the insta-grat types will stay in WoW or EQ.
People LFG and needing something to distract them for 5-10-15 etc minutes? I wouldn't worry about it imo, there are plenty of options for people to do while waiting for a group. The game doesn't need to solve everyones attention span problems imo, there's phones and apps, handhelds, tv's, console games, web browsers, etc, etc these days to be utilized if someone really does get bored and doesn't want to rely on simply chatting (it is a group-centric game, that usually means being social & having friends to talk to etc).
Something for people to do in a 30minute period? I could see the appeal in it. My main suggestion would be something in the form of an epic quest or two that can be done, the large collection/chain quest style. This is also a game with limited fast travel. So 30minutes to play might just mean banking/selling materials and moving your toon to the next intended group location you are going to play.
If you are concerned about joining a group, just to potentially have to leave abruptly... well this might be more of a design issue than anything. Stick to populated zones that you can be replaced easily enough and just be up front with people and most can accept the terms. It's when people don't tell others ahead of time that it becomes insulting/inconsiderate to their own time. Aside from that, this is again a niche game, so maybe we can come up with a better way for aligning players with others who have similar schedules for playing? It was mentioned before that VR desires to have some kind of questionnaire to answer when creating your account, iirc.
Basically people want to dance around with the idea that there should never be any soloable content. There SHOULD be some content that is soloable with the obvious lessened rewards vs group content. If people choose to solo their way to max level, then let them do that. It may not be time-efficient but then again the only folks who care about time efficiency are the min-maxers right? Group content will be the bulk of content, that's confirmed and verified. However if groups start getting tough to come about (shortage of tanks, healers, ccs, or overall "good" players), then people are either forced out of content and thus forced out of the game.
zewtastic said:Why should it be resolved? Trying to make a game everything to everyone is usually what screws things up.
Kind of siding with Zewtastic here.
I've heard it said a couple of times on this thread that what you're proposing is to combat the lack of attention spans of modern day gamers. I have a couple problems with this.
1. I think it's high time an MMO comes around that does NOT cater to those with a short attention span. I'm sure you're not suggesting that Pantheon does that, or you think you aren't, but that seems to me the gist of what you're asking for here. Something to do for those that don't know how to occupy their time. You mentioned EQ in the old days, when you could trade in EC or simply wait in line for certain groups in Lguk or Highpass Hold, and socialize on your downtime - why wouldn't it be the same way here? Why change that formula?
2. It's offensive to modern day MMO players to assume that they, collectively, have a shorter attention span than us. Say rather, that they simply haven't had a chance to experience a quality MMO with modern graphics and challenging game-play. Absent that, of course they'll gravitate towards the newer, instant-gratification titles out there. This isn't because a whole generation has suddenly popped out of the womb with short attention spans. This is because of a lack of attractive options out there.
I truly think this is creating a problem that won't exist. I can see the reasoning behind it, and I think it's commendable that you're thinking ahead and trying to keep subscribers to a maximum, but I think the point is moot.
To Zewtastic's point, while you maybe aren't trying to make a game for EVERYONE, you do seem to be trying to cater the game towards something other than its target audience. I'd hate to sound elitist, or snobbish, or any other general term thrown at someone who envisions something a certain way, but why? We ARE the target audience. They've had their turn. They've had their Gems.
Lokkan,
This is not about me, just more looking out for the general health of the game.
5-15 mins may not seem like a lot to us here now posting on the forums. A newer player that looks for group with 15 mins and no response will have a pretty negative attitude and feel discouraged if they end up logging out and never playing. I am not saying this person, if they got a group, was going to stop playing at 15-30 mins. If they had a group they may have played for 4 hours, gave enough notice to there group to get a new person in before they left and all that.
I think it's more of creating a illusion as you get on for the day you have a check list of a few things you need to get done or are distracted by. As you start this, you have your feelers out looking for that group spot. Next thing you know 30 mins have gone by you get a group invite and you really did not notice it has been that long since you started looking.
This has less to do with players with having short attention spans and more about people simply wanting to play the game more than say just socializing. But the situation is correct (it hit Vanguard like no other). If new players come in and say thy get off of the noobie island and are hit with some group content that they NEED to group up but everyone running around is a rogue, sorceror, or a psionicist, well yes we can say "somebody better roll a healer or a tank" OR the game can provide alternative PvE solo-small group content to folks in the game and engaged and leave the harder more pressing content for the more well-fitted groups.
@Ashenor
Reading this thread makes me think of the duty officer assignments in Star Trek Online. For the most part, that system is nothing more than a time sink for the player. It strikes me as something of what you are requesting, but I hate the duty officer system. It just feels like filler. What STO needs is better level design and much more challenging PvE content. I've heard it from inside their development team that I will never get those things becuase, "They are targeting a more casual playing group." When I think of this through the lens of opportunity cost, I come to the conclusion that I would rather have the Pantheon dev team spend their time working on making awsome PvE content. If the game has awsome PvE content, like EQ did, the presence or lack of something like the duty officer system is a garnishment at best. As I understand things, the dev team has already put together some mechanisms to suck the players into the world. Even in the EQ days players didn't lack for something to do. In analyzing this topic, I find that any LFG time I had was sucked up by the following: exploring the world; advancing my character ecconomically; working on trade skills; combing forums and wikis for useful information; trolling people in local chat; helping guild mates compleate their own quests and goals; buffing for cheers in newb zones. Now a days I could add, "catching up on my youTube subscriptions," to the list. Early on in my play experience I was often so busy persuing these other things that I would play all day without ever getting around to LFG.
There are probably a lot people in the world who need the kind of enticement that you describe. Please consider what catering to such low calibre individuals does to dilute the competence of the player base. That is not something I can endorse. If the learning curve for Pantheon is not steap enough, I will just return to one of the fine products that already caters to individuals like myself. I don't mean to imply that it is a zero-sum game between our two positions, but I wonder if putting somthing like what you are asking for in is really worth the opportunity cost.
Celevin i agree with what you are saying in most ways. Back in the day it was super easy to get sucked in and before you know you really did not do anything other than chat with your friends, sell a few things and run around a bit. We were satisfied. But in essence EQ was so ahead of it's time it had no real competition then and it was easy to keep players engaged.
I hear you on diverting resources also. Myself, like you said, will just surf the net, play some duelyst/hearthstone on my other monitor or something silmilar while i hang out in game.
All that said i still think there needs to be something to hold our meat and potatoes (casuals) in game and active, so once they hit the solo wall they will keep logging in daily, even if it is to just get there few daily things done.
If Pantheon's main selling points aren't enough to keep a person interested, I don't see how some gimmik is going to do the trick. The dilution of the player base is at the heart of my objection.
Elrandir said: I think it's important to keep in mind that the shift from solo-ability to group dependency was pretty gradual in early EQ. Up until around level 8-10ish any class was able to solo fairly effectively. Getting to level 10 in most games these days is pretty trivial, but back then it took a good number of hours to accomplish. Soloing wasn't as good as grouping, but it meant newer players didn't have to sit on their hands while waiting for a spot to open up somewhere. By the time people got into the teens and twenties, and grouping really became sort of mandatory, they'd had plenty of time to socialize, make friends, and learn a bit through word of mouth what future levels were going to be like. I think if Pantheon follows a similar design philosophy, getting new players acclimated to the game dynamics won't be a huge issue.
Bolded text is all that is. People really do undervalue getting and keeping newer players, but they'll feel it 1-2 years after launch
CelevinMoongleam said:If Pantheon's main selling points aren't enough to keep a person interested, I don't see how some gimmik is going to do the trick. The dilution of the player base is at the heart of my objection.
Thing is you can sell all you want, and again this is not really for the handfuls of people posting here pre pre pre alpha.
It comes down to Johnny Casual that rolled a rogue. He loves his rogue and wants to progress it to max level. He has no friends here, has not got into a guild yet and logs in daily. Now maybe rogues are not the most wanted class in classic Pantheon (cough cough) so he is on the bottom scale of what groups are looking for. Take that with any class though, if he logs in and has no reason or activity outside of looking for a group, if daily it is a grind to get a group and there is zero other reason to log in i fear Johnny will stop logging in.
The day all the Johnnys stop logging into a game is not good for anyone.
Trust me this is the game i want to play, my VIP sub starts on the 17th of this month. I am not afraid to put money into the game.