Hello all,
Will players be able to solo from lvl 1 to the max level?
I know there are a lot of ‘solo artists’ out there who may be introverts, who may enjoy playing the game without the hassle of working with others. And before you say ‘well this isn’t your game.’ I’d like you to think about your experiences playing Everquest 1 (which you hopefully have). Soloing is something very doable in the game. It does take longer to level up, and may require far more travel than you’d want to. It’s almost like ‘hard mode’ to play by yourself, but it is doable and preferable to some people.
I myself, and extrovert who plays MMO’s because of the people, want to play with people! So I don’t entirely agree with the direction of games which drain players away from playing with others. But I would feel bad if I myself couldn’t take a break from group play just to handle something myself to see how strong I am alone.
What do you all feel about this? Will the game harshly punish you for playing by yourself to the extent where it’s literally impossible to level up alone. Or is it possible to do it, but may take twice or three times as much time to do it, and it may be twice or three times as difficult?
please stay away from the 'go play another game' mentality in this topic. Thanks in advance.
-Todd
I am definitely in this school of thought.
I understand the social nature of PROTF and applaud it. I very actively grouped, raided and helped lead guilds. I love that aspect of the game.
I also, however, got great satisfaction being able to progress sometimes (very slowly) just all by myself. Sometimes I liked to just sit and slowly grind XP, other times explore new places, other times do solo quests.
From all we know, it will be very similar to EQ. Soloing will be possible for some classes (think for example shaman with root-doting) but they won't be very efficient time-wise. Other classes may be able to solo only with extreme downtime (warriors for example since they cannot heal quickly after a fight). I also expect that soloing will only be possible in outdoor zones where you can safely pull single mobs. Dungeons will be likely off-limits to soloers unless the player extremely out-levels the place. At lower levels soloing will probably be normal, but eventually mobs will become harder and lead you naturally to seek out help to fight them.
I think this is a workable approach: Don't actively prevent soloing, but do not encourage it in any way either. Instead, encourage people to group by giving group exp bonus etc.
If soloing the cap is possible, it should take much longer than it would by grouping.
I'm not against soloing, but I am however for designing mmorpgs to be massively multiplayer. I think everything from the ground up should encourage and incentize people working together. Those who choose to play a game like that alone should struggle, but a proper virtual world means having the freedom to choose.
I agree with the sentiments you all have expressed, the game should be designed with grouping in mind and promote it but I don't think soloing should be impossible, very slow and gruely though.
Sometimes Im in the mood to play the game but not in the mood for grouping, sometimes it may be difficult to get a group and it would suck to just have to sit around doing nothing waiting for one to form/open up, it would be nice to be able to do a bit of limited solo adventuring (though I'm planning on playing a cleric so that might be very difficult :P).
I do not however want to be able to effetivly progress in the game, through quests, though levels by soloing. I'm very much looking forward to a game that actively promotes grouping and if you want to be effective at all need grouping.
Everquest was never made to be able to solo to max level, the players used the skills and abilities they were given to solo...emergent gameplay.
I hope that all of Pantheon is desinged with groups in mind, no solo encounters designed. Now if players figure out a way to solo then great, good on you! Just dont make it a solo friendly game
I think the biggest challenge there will be is, what do you offer players to do while waiting for a group.
Back in the EQ days, you might be on a list in Drezla's room for Jboots, in LGUK on a list to join a camp. It was things we were used to while selling in tunnel and looking for a group (then to run 10 mins plus at times to get there).
People now adays are so used to being able to solo any class to max lvl, it is just a theme park ride to get there. Then you can queue up anywhere in the world for dungeon's and raids without ever having to talk to someone.
I think most of us early adopters want to harken back to the old days, but really think about it. Most of us are quite a bit older, have more responiblites then we did then. and really don't have 30 mins or a hour to form up a group then play for 6 hours or so.
I think the game will need some sort of daily activity to do while you are running to a dungeon, looking for a group, or waiting for your buddies to get on. Something to keep you in game and occupied while you wait. If not people log in for 5 mins get nothing and log out. But a few mins later there are more people looking and the cycle repeats.
I joked around in a facebook post on something similiar for this that the game needs Gems 2 or a ingame card game or something like this to keep people doing something until they can play the game.
I want to group, i don't want to be able to solo everything. That prekunark Rogue that got to 50 said something back in the day.
With short attention spans, i really think there needs to be something to kill time, without people really realizing they are waiting for groups.
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1937/not-all-classes-should-be-able-to-solo/view/post_id/25173
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1546/solo-play
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2967/solo-content
Some interetsing discussions, here
Manouk said:http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1937/not-all-classes-should-be-able-to-solo/view/post_id/25173
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1546/solo-play
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2967/solo-content
Some interetsing discussions, here
Thanks! I was reading through that and was reminded of something that I experienced in an mmo release a few years back ( I can't remember which mmo ). The problem was that when you grouped up, you shared an alloted xp net gain. So basically, you were given less xp per person while in a group verses solo. I am assuming they designed the progression to be equal for groups and soloers (solo takes longer to kill gets more xp v group faster to kill netting less xp).
This was AWFUL to say the least. It took away incentive to group with others because you essentially took a penalty for doing so. You should always work more efficiently with a group.
I don't imagine that design happening here but I wanted to put it out there. Since grouping is going to be the main focus in Pantheon, hopefully there won't be unintended disadvantages to it which pushes players away from grouping.
I mostly liked the way soloing worked in the first three expansions of EQ with some reservations. Some classes were great at soloing meaning they could level faster than if they were grouped (in most cases). Other classes were able to do it but it wasn't quite as lucrative for them. The rest were unable to solo in any viable way.
Great soloers
Necro
Mage
Shaman (after a certain level)
Then depending on who you ask, enchanter and Druid.
Wiz (maybe great when vs a caster mob with low hp?)
Able to solo
Cleric (especially vs undead)
SK (twinks helped)
Monk (twinks helped)
Paladin
Not worth it
Warrior (generally)
Rogue (generally)
Some of the great solo classes really deserved to be that good IMO. Nec and Mage were not everyones favorite to group with, it makes sense that they should have had another strength. Druids brought utility to groups but they weren't a core class in most situations (were in some) so having solo ability makes sense. Shamans could just do anything after a certain level haha, jeez. Wizards were only really worth soloing certain camps IMO. I think the big equalizer was that soloing could get really boring and the loot was rarely as good as it might be with a group.
A good way to go in Pantheon would be to make grouping that much better, not to do away with soloers. The solo classes really add variety to the game. Make grouping that much more interesting though and easy enough to get in and out of that those of us with only 2 hours to play can still do it and you might not see many people soloing. Otherwise for people with time constraints or frequent RL afk issues (like kids) soloing might be their only real option.
Ashenor said:I think the biggest challenge there will be is, what do you offer players to do while waiting for a group.
Back in the EQ days, you might be on a list in Drezla's room for Jboots, in LGUK on a list to join a camp. It was things we were used to while selling in tunnel and looking for a group (then to run 10 mins plus at times to get there).
People now adays are so used to being able to solo any class to max lvl, it is just a theme park ride to get there. Then you can queue up anywhere in the world for dungeon's and raids without ever having to talk to someone.
I think most of us early adopters want to harken back to the old days, but really think about it. Most of us are quite a bit older, have more responiblites then we did then. and really don't have 30 mins or a hour to form up a group then play for 6 hours or so.
I think the game will need some sort of daily activity to do while you are running to a dungeon, looking for a group, or waiting for your buddies to get on. Something to keep you in game and occupied while you wait. If not people log in for 5 mins get nothing and log out. But a few mins later there are more people looking and the cycle repeats.
I joked around in a facebook post on something similiar for this that the game needs Gems 2 or a ingame card game or something like this to keep people doing something until they can play the game.
I want to group, i don't want to be able to solo everything. That prekunark Rogue that got to 50 said something back in the day.
With short attention spans, i really think there needs to be something to kill time, without people really realizing they are waiting for groups.
Hats off, Ashenor. Great post, and really nailed it for me.
I want to group just as much as the next guy, and have that be all I do, but... my situation has changed. I can't sit LFG for 30 minutes, take 20 mins to form the group, and then grind for hours -- this was the norm for me in EQ. While I do not support solo to lvl cap or even viable soloing for all classes, providing other things for us to do in the game while we form a group or wait for an invite is critical.
Kobrashade said:Thanks! I was reading through that and was reminded of something that I experienced in an mmo release a few years back ( I can't remember which mmo ). The problem was that when you grouped up, you shared an alloted xp net gain. So basically, you were given less xp per person while in a group verses solo. I am assuming they designed the progression to be equal for groups and soloers (solo takes longer to kill gets more xp v group faster to kill netting less xp).
This was AWFUL to say the least. It took away incentive to group with others because you essentially took a penalty for doing so. You should always work more efficiently with a group.
I don't imagine that design happening here but I wanted to put it out there. Since grouping is going to be the main focus in Pantheon, hopefully there won't be unintended disadvantages to it which pushes players away from grouping.
This is how it worked in EverQuest as well. A mob would give a certain amount of XP, that was divided up amongst the group, and there were XP bonuses for how many people you would have in the group. The bonus worked out to where if you added a 6th person, it was exactly the same xp as having 5 people, so it only made sense to get whoever you could (unless you needed a specific class, e.g. tank). The difference was killing effeciency. You would kill mobs much quicker and safer in a group of 6 than solo, so it was balanced in favor of group killing by quite a bit. Solo gve you full Xp for the mob split with no one which leads to the absolutely most XP you could get, but even solo classes such as a necro or druid would take a bit to kill things and it was much more dangerous, and almost impossible o any 55+ mob that would summon you.
I'm perfectly fine with teh above notion of how EQ handled soloing. I always envied classes that could solo when I would play a cleric, mostly for loot farming areas that were a few levels below you, but the leveling process was definitely better in group setting. Except for quad kiting wizards.. They still win the XP game.
Manouk said:http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1937/not-all-classes-should-be-able-to-solo/view/post_id/25173
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1546/solo-play
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2967/solo-content
Some interetsing discussions, here
Thank you Manouk :)
Please use the search function prior to creating a new thread, I know people get awesome ideas for topics but 9 times out of 10 you will find that someone else and possibly others already had the same awesome idea or something very similar, splitting discussions up into multiple threads makes it hard for us (VR) to find information and ideas plus it also makes it hard for the community to follow and contribute, it is also against forum guidelines and for those reasons, this thread will now be closed, please continue the discussion in the already existing threads.