Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Pets and Pantheon

    • 287 posts
    June 3, 2016 5:09 PM PDT

    Couldn`t agree more with Oxillion. 100% on all 7Thoughts here. A nice wide spread mix on Flying mounts. Nice thought process there awsome Mindmapping man!

    • 997 posts
    June 3, 2016 5:12 PM PDT

    I had a ton of coffee.  and was remembering the flying mounts in VG during beta.  Great times. 

    The pets in general are a smaller part of the game but very important.

    Ox 

     

    • 2275 posts
    June 3, 2016 5:40 PM PDT

    Oxillion said:

    Possible solutions: emphasis on possible:

     

    1. Make the flying mounts an epic/legendary quest (Nothing like WoW or even EQ2 has currently) These are supposed to be creatures that inspire awe and fear and to mount one and actually fly it would need to fall into that category.

    2. It also should not be once you actually get the opportunity to get one you are an instant expert on flying so off you go flying across the world. Also the beast would have to get used to you and the weight just like a horse or pack mule would.

    3. Training for basic flight.   Make it a skill tree. Crafting could fall into here also for gear to ride. Not some five minute quest either.   Make it a massive chain. Throw faction in there too.

    4. Breeding beasts for this. This can spin an animal husbandry profession for sure.

    5. As for the distance issue and just flying over content there are ways to make this very difficult.   The beast also must build stamina and ability to fly distance.   You are already putting weather in the game so that is a huge factor. Flying in the cold has issues unless your dragon has de-ice units installed.

    6.  I think the pet and rider need to trust each other. I am not sure what to do here but I think that is very important. They are not cars.

    7. Possible combat roles for them?   Tough one I know but holy cow that would be sweet!

     

    Rough ideas but this one is a favorite of mine. Not from gaming but from before that with DnD and books. There is so much of a story and adventure there is make me excited for this game and what you guys are coming up with. If anyone can do this sort of thing it’s you guys.

    As always I am trying to get the discussion to lift off to see what we all can come up with regardless if it gets into the game.

    Ox

    Not a single one of your suggestions even remotely fixes the primary problem Brad outlined:  "Unrestricted flying mounts allow players to simply fly over content they wish to bypass. We have found that, typically, Flying Mounts are more trouble than they are worth." Your solutions are just time sinks, nothing more.  They just delay the inevitable and that is never a solution. 

    Oh, and what, pray tell, would be a 'de-icing unit' that you 'install' on a dragon?

     


    This post was edited by Vandraad at June 3, 2016 5:41 PM PDT
    • 997 posts
    June 3, 2016 6:04 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Oxillion said:

    Possible solutions: emphasis on possible:

     

    1. Make the flying mounts an epic/legendary quest (Nothing like WoW or even EQ2 has currently) These are supposed to be creatures that inspire awe and fear and to mount one and actually fly it would need to fall into that category.

    2. It also should not be once you actually get the opportunity to get one you are an instant expert on flying so off you go flying across the world. Also the beast would have to get used to you and the weight just like a horse or pack mule would.

    3. Training for basic flight.   Make it a skill tree. Crafting could fall into here also for gear to ride. Not some five minute quest either.   Make it a massive chain. Throw faction in there too.

    4. Breeding beasts for this. This can spin an animal husbandry profession for sure.

    5. As for the distance issue and just flying over content there are ways to make this very difficult.   The beast also must build stamina and ability to fly distance.   You are already putting weather in the game so that is a huge factor. Flying in the cold has issues unless your dragon has de-ice units installed.

    6.  I think the pet and rider need to trust each other. I am not sure what to do here but I think that is very important. They are not cars.

    7. Possible combat roles for them?   Tough one I know but holy cow that would be sweet!

     

    Rough ideas but this one is a favorite of mine. Not from gaming but from before that with DnD and books. There is so much of a story and adventure there is make me excited for this game and what you guys are coming up with. If anyone can do this sort of thing it’s you guys.

    As always I am trying to get the discussion to lift off to see what we all can come up with regardless if it gets into the game.

    Ox

    Not a single one of your suggestions even remotely fixes the primary problem Brad outlined:  "Unrestricted flying mounts allow players to simply fly over content they wish to bypass. We have found that, typically, Flying Mounts are more trouble than they are worth." Your solutions are just time sinks, nothing more.  They just delay the inevitable and that is never a solution. 

    Oh, and what, pray tell, would be a 'de-icing unit' that you 'install' on a dragon?

     

    Hey Van,

     

    Now these were not intended as carved in stone solutions. Ideas to possible paths to get over or around the issues with the flying mounts. This is the same issues with mounts in general in every MMO out there.  

     

    Questing and training can limit the player to range and or region of flight. Sure does that stop anyone from hopping over the deadly rabbit with fangs? No. You will never stop that. There are folks that will simply run around it. Now do we limit the types of shoes or boot we are to outfit our characters with to stop them from running around or away from the rabbit? No. But you can design the game to limit that sort of activity with putting the mob in a narrow valley for example. No way around the little nasty cur.

     

    My point is these are merely suggestions.   Emphasis on suggestions for the devs to chew on or ignore. I think the box that current MMOs are in needs a serious boundary re-write. As for the de-ice units that was a joke but this is a digital world who knows what they can come up with.

     

    Ox

     

    • 287 posts
    June 3, 2016 6:07 PM PDT

    Its not all about solutions here and the OP started the discussion looking for ideas and thoughts on the general idea of pets so his opinion is valid @Vandraad.

    Brad put his thoughts and Mindmap here. While there are alot of things to take into account on how to solve some issues Brad stated there is nothing wrong with brining ideas to further outline some cool mechanics towards the System Brad had in mind. Without bringing ideas for the final pitch there is no way to sort out issues VR might have. And Brad also mentioned that nothing is set in stone so let people gather some ideas and thoughts.

    Well a De-Icing unit can be anything it can be an crafted item that adds a  cold resistance to the Mount or something visual that gets added to the mount.

    And try and have a more open mind on some of the ideas thinking out the box helps sometimes. wording isnt always put best. Thats why i try and stay clear of forums because of misunderstandings or misinterpretation of someones words 

     

     

     

    • 208 posts
    June 3, 2016 6:17 PM PDT
    In the case of flying mounts, I would think endurance should play a part in their operation meaning that they can't just fly on and on without rest. I also think flying can be realistically restricted to certain areas. While a creature may be able to effortlessly fly without a rider+gear, maybe they cannot take to the sky unless they are in an area with strong winds and up drafts to aid it in flight with said rider.
    • Moderator
    • 9252 posts
    June 3, 2016 11:48 PM PDT

    We never had a problem with flying mounts in VG, they were hard to get end game items that required a lot of time/effort/skill to achieve and allowed you to then travel around over content already completed at a slight convenience with beautiful new views and slightly faster grouping capabilities.

    They can be easily balanced and compatible if implemented properly, VG would be a good point of reference to base flying mounts on if this was going to be considered but it shouldn't be ruled out because of people's personal experiences with a game that did not have them or because of what they think might happen.

    • 123 posts
    June 4, 2016 7:31 AM PDT

    Personally I'd view flying mounts as something to side table for later.  I am not really for mounts in general myself, hell I am perfectly content without mounts in general (mounts coasting to a stop causing fizzling in spells kinda ruined it for me ;) ).  But I understand the majority would like them, so be it.

     

    Flying mounts "requiring the game to be designed with that in mind" is one huge issue I'd have with trying to add them currently.  Yes it is ideal to do it while creating the game, but not unless people are willing to sacrefice the release date and potential issues with encounters.  Designing that orc base around the ruins that was shown in the pre-pre-alpha, would instantly be cheapened by a flying mount that can go to the top (where a named would likely be?).  Would the cazic thule lizard temple have exhisted the way it did if they designed it with flying mounts in mind?

     

    Either way IMO it is moot for now, anything that doesn't bring content to the game (and potentially slows the design process or even limits the type of content allowable) while pushing back the release date isn't appealing for the majority (designers and future subscribers alike).

    • 123 posts
    June 4, 2016 7:57 AM PDT

    As to the rest of Aradune's post... Definetly excited to hear.  I'm wondering if it would be worth it to consider having a soulbound type item intended mostly for pets, that would return to the summoner after the pet dies?  

     

    I am in the camp where I would love to have a beastly pet at the expense of my characters ability/survivability.  And hearing the issues with them being a viable raid option makes me wonder if a Summoner could have another Orb?  Where they can invest (temporarily) a chosen fraction of their soul/essence/what-have-you into their pets power/abilities.  Don't misunderstand me, I want a grouping game, I don't want to create a beastlord soloing class, so that might be the greatest hurtle for the concept.

     

    But if the summoners power is based on this orb, then they could be still a viable class for raids without their pet.  

    Other solutions that come to mind for a raid-friendly pet would be a ranged type of pet that wouldn't require pathing.

     

     

    If the summoner is the generic magician style, where their pet is a significant chunk of their dps, then why not allow the mage to summon their pet, and then sacrefice/infuse themselves with that pet's power for a duration (obviously that would disallow another pet being used).

    The only issue would be to find a creative way to give them bonuses so they aren't a substitute for wizards by doing so, maybe greater survivability or a greater damage shield so they indirectly help the raid, etc.

    • 156 posts
    June 4, 2016 9:27 AM PDT

    Flying Mounts

    At this point, there are no plans to include Flying Mounts in Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen.  Flying Mounts present quite a few problems when it comes to implementing and preserving content.  Unrestricted flying mounts allow players to simply fly over content they wish to bypass.  

     

    Thank you!

     

    No flying mounts is a good decision, imho. Flying mounts are THE community killer, an open world pvp-killer and the whole world will appear dead because everyone is flying over your head. In World of Warcraft there were also many "workarounds" ala invisible walls to disallow reaching some places etc. 

    Greetings


    This post was edited by Larirawiel at June 4, 2016 9:27 AM PDT
    • 1986 posts
    June 4, 2016 2:14 PM PDT

    I guess I must be the minority then. Aesthetically, I just dont like it. Just like I prefer rpgs where I control one character like an ES game. Its one of the major reasons I cant stand games like Dragon Age. My character represents me. The only other characters I want to see are other players.

     

    Brad said its not set in stone, but based on the info he just gave. I suppose I need to prepare myself for Pokemon: Rise of the Fallen? Or otherwise drag my party down? Is that right? Killing me here.

    • 1535 posts
    June 4, 2016 2:21 PM PDT

    Amsai said:

    Brad said its not set in stone, but based on the info he just gave. I suppose I need to prepare myself for Pokemon: Rise of the Fallen? Or otherwise drag my party down? Is that right? Killing me here.

    It certainly sounds like a big part of the game will be about collecting pets from the way I read it. Since I played a pet class in EQ I don't mind so much but I can understand how some people who have never played a pet class may be a bit worried about it.

    • 1986 posts
    June 4, 2016 2:45 PM PDT

    Actaully Im suprised pet classes wouldnt be a bit up in arms because doesnt that kind of take away from their uniquenes? Why play a pet clas when you can just play any class and get whatever damn pet you want? Is this a one size fits all kinda thing, so that they no longer have to worry about pet balance? Im just a bit blown away by this and still trying to recover. I guess Im just in shock. Because frankly its the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard. Im having difficulty not seeing red right now, so I guess Ill leave this one alone for now. But this is an extremely horrible idea to me. Hopefully later on Ill feel better about it, but right now............

    • 1535 posts
    June 4, 2016 3:03 PM PDT

    Amsai said:

    Actaully Im suprised pet classes wouldnt be a bit up in arms because doesnt that kind of take away from their uniquenes? Why play a pet clas when you can just play any class and get whatever damn pet you want? Is this a one size fits all kinda thing, so that they no longer have to worry about pet balance? Im just a bit blown away by this and still trying to recover. I guess Im just in shock. Because frankly its the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard. Im having difficulty not seeing red right now, so I guess Ill leave this one alone for now. But this is an extremely horrible idea to me. Hopefully later on Ill feel better about it, but right now............

    From what he said summoner pets will be somewhat different to persistent pets. Whether that means they are more powerful or not is still unknown but I'd imagine a pet class would have better pets than other classes with a persistent pet. If you main utilty is to use pets then it would seem a bit silly to nerf your one main ability. Unless they are planning on making summoners have more utility than just being a pet class which might end up being quite interesting.

    I guess this post was a bit of a shock but I'm certainly not angry. I'm sure you'll get used to the idea in time and when more information is released on it.

    • 113 posts
    June 4, 2016 4:31 PM PDT

    Amsai said:

    Actaully Im suprised pet classes wouldnt be a bit up in arms because doesnt that kind of take away from their uniquenes? Why play a pet clas when you can just play any class and get whatever damn pet you want? Is this a one size fits all kinda thing, so that they no longer have to worry about pet balance? Im just a bit blown away by this and still trying to recover. I guess Im just in shock. Because frankly its the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard. Im having difficulty not seeing red right now, so I guess Ill leave this one alone for now. But this is an extremely horrible idea to me. Hopefully later on Ill feel better about it, but right now............

     

    shocking to say the least.  SWTOR-esque.  is there really a huge segment of this games supporters that want this type of combat pet for 'everyone'?

    • 353 posts
    June 4, 2016 5:04 PM PDT

    I like the Idea of pets for everyone, but about those pets for everyone what if the pets werent dropped? what if you got monster parts and had to have alchemists assemble them into a pet (kinda like VG necro) allowing you to manufacture the pet you dream about?

     

    also all pet classes pets will be transient? so this means that my summoner could have 2 or more pets active at a time? 1 persistant + 1 or more transient?

     

    once agian i will say that i like the idea of pets for all, but only if that means that the pet classes can have multiple pets.... and the pet control system needs to be flawless.

    • 5 posts
    June 4, 2016 6:42 PM PDT

    I have to agree with Amsai, I don't find everyone having pets appealing. 6 in a party with 6 pets; 24 in a raid with 24 pets; this is assuming only 1 pet per person. I see an image that is too busy, one that is relieing on half the combatants to follow AI script. Or do we have full control over our pet and character at the same time.

     

    As for flying mounts, it depends on the overall game. EQ when I played did not need flying mounts and putting them in would have cheapened the game. On the other hand as Kilsin has already stated flying mounts added a lot for VG and that game was more fun because of them. The one error VG made was allowing low level characters flying mounts for brief times. These should be resticted to end game.

    • 2275 posts
    June 4, 2016 7:00 PM PDT

    Pixh said:

    As for flying mounts, it depends on the overall game. EQ when I played did not need flying mounts and putting them in would have cheapened the game. On the other hand as Kilsin has already stated flying mounts added a lot for VG and that game was more fun because of them. The one error VG made was allowing low level characters flying mounts for brief times. These should be resticted to end game.

    In a game that doesn't have an end, where exactly is 'the end game'?

    • 191 posts
    June 4, 2016 7:18 PM PDT

    Amsai said:

    Actaully Im suprised pet classes wouldnt be a bit up in arms because doesnt that kind of take away from their uniquenes? Why play a pet clas when you can just play any class and get whatever damn pet you want? Is this a one size fits all kinda thing, so that they no longer have to worry about pet balance? Im just a bit blown away by this and still trying to recover. I guess Im just in shock. Because frankly its the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard. Im having difficulty not seeing red right now, so I guess Ill leave this one alone for now. But this is an extremely horrible idea to me. Hopefully later on Ill feel better about it, but right now............

    I’m with you on this one. I really think this is a bad idea and something that should be reexamined before further work is done on this. I was up in arms about this and shook my head in disappointment; I really thought that Brad and team had some good ideas until I saw Brads post. Granted, anything could change between now and release, but if everyone can have a pet it just seems so “WOW’ish” to me with those silly pets that run around with players… uugghh… Keep pets to the pet classes, and put a unique spin on it... The current idea being discussed by Brad is a dogs-dinner... JMO...

    Rint

    • 1910 posts
    June 4, 2016 7:31 PM PDT

    From what I understand of the concept:

    Transient pets are like the old mage elemental walking/floating around, a commandable DoT(maybe) but they're like a buff and can be debuffed or killed and so would need to be recast.

    Persistent pets are like- a shadownight's nightmare steed(with red eyes and smoke out of the nostrils), or a clever mages, black panther....mount. BUT The persistent pets can be trained up and fixed or ressurected. Persistent pets also have certain trainable skills maybe like dodge or Loyalty (if master gets hit, fight to the death, if master is lost, run to master) and can hold things- maybe sort of like companions in Fallout4.

    Transient pets may not be useable in all areas: Water elemental evaporates in a lava based area,dungeon. Likewise persistent pets may not be able to travel accross all areas.

    I do agree on the overpopulation control issue- raids would get too busy, unless mounts were held in a stable outside? available after the event to load up with treasure but I dont know how it would work in dungeons, or groups.

    I fantasize about a mage needing to train and keep a persistent pet from being so weak (balance issue), along with the use of transient pets. Likewise a dwarf warrior not needing a warboar well, maybe dwarfs should have a warboar, nm. Likewise a warrior not needing a dog, but if he trains his dog to be strong and bull-necked, the warrior can throw his dark-edged two-hander for his dog to fetch and hold, while the warrior moves on. Later, the warrior whistles and the dog comes lolly-toungue-ing in, sits, and warrior picks up his dark-edged two-hander for the next adventure.

    So in my imagination: persistent pets would crowd the group, but only for certain classes- IF those Ppets are allowed in the environment. Transient pets however, would be unique to the class- only some would have transient like summoners, etc.

    • 707 posts
    June 4, 2016 9:57 PM PDT

    Aradune said:

    Aenra said:

    One very general bit of advice, do be careful with the extent to which you will be making pets "necessary".

    Not everyone fancies playing with a pet. Reminds of a pet class. Not everyone likes pet classes :)

     

    Assuming that is not overlooked (ie that you mitigate/balance pet bonuses, trivialise non-fluff benefits), i like the way this could be going. Reminds me of a certain other game i used to play a necro in ^^

    While not everyone likes pet classes, as you can see from my post above, pets are a much bigger part of Pantheon than just those available to you based on your character's class.  They're a pretty big deal, especially the persistent pets.  I suppose there may indeed be some players totally disinterested in pets of any kind, but I think it's pretty safe to say that the majority of our target audience is interested in them -- all the more when they experience the in-game advantages you receive for having pets.  



    I think Aenra may have been referring to using pets for combat. Not everyone likes to play classes who have pets to fight for them. But pets in Pantheon seem to have a much broader definition and I agree that most people, if not all, will want to have at least one pet in one form or another.

    • 707 posts
    June 4, 2016 10:13 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    We never had a problem with flying mounts in VG, they were hard to get end game items that required a lot of time/effort/skill to achieve and allowed you to then travel around over content already completed at a slight convenience with beautiful new views and slightly faster grouping capabilities.

    They can be easily balanced and compatible if implemented properly, VG would be a good point of reference to base flying mounts on if this was going to be considered but it shouldn't be ruled out because of people's personal experiences with a game that did not have them or because of what they think might happen.



    Yeah, I don't know why the game would have to be built from the ground up with flying mounts in mind. VG did flying quite well I believe and don't see why it would be a trouble for Pantheon.

    First, just like VG, make flying mounts not even accessible until later levels. This way players experience most of the content as they level and then ultimately once they get their flyer later on they won't be 'skipping' over much.

    Second, VG had areas that were no-fly zones. This should be easier to do in Pantheon with the climate system. If you want an area to not be able to be bypassed with a flyer just create some climate that makes it impossible to fly through.

    Just be sure that to get a flyer you have to complete a grueling quest or raid some super tough bosses. If you have already experienced a lot of the game and you have completed the 6 month long quest and defeated the 3 crazy hard raid bosses, who cares if you bypass some old content that you may or may not have seen before. You most likely won't even need to go there at your level and any of the new content made could be made with flying in mind. :D

    • 707 posts
    June 4, 2016 10:21 PM PDT

    Rint said:

    Amsai said:

    Actaully Im suprised pet classes wouldnt be a bit up in arms because doesnt that kind of take away from their uniquenes? Why play a pet clas when you can just play any class and get whatever damn pet you want? Is this a one size fits all kinda thing, so that they no longer have to worry about pet balance? Im just a bit blown away by this and still trying to recover. I guess Im just in shock. Because frankly its the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard. Im having difficulty not seeing red right now, so I guess Ill leave this one alone for now. But this is an extremely horrible idea to me. Hopefully later on Ill feel better about it, but right now............

    I’m with you on this one. I really think this is a bad idea and something that should be reexamined before further work is done on this. I was up in arms about this and shook my head in disappointment; I really thought that Brad and team had some good ideas until I saw Brads post. Granted, anything could change between now and release, but if everyone can have a pet it just seems so “WOW’ish” to me with those silly pets that run around with players… uugghh… Keep pets to the pet classes, and put a unique spin on it... The current idea being discussed by Brad is a dogs-dinner... JMO...

    Rint



    From what I got from Brad's post, not everyone will be able to have pets that attack. The pets that attack will be cast by a class that can summon/cast pets or specific mounts will be able to attack. Brad and Co. are just giving a much wider definition to the term 'pets'. What I'm getting is that pets in PRotF are what older MMOs (ie EQ/VG) called class pets (such as casted elemental pets and summoned necro/mage pets), vanity pets (pets that follow you around and sit at your home), and mounts. I could be wrong in understanding it but I don't think warriors and rogues will be running around with big attacking pets in Pantheon.

    • 1321 posts
    June 5, 2016 7:05 AM PDT

    Amsai said:

    Actaully Im suprised pet classes wouldnt be a bit up in arms because doesnt that kind of take away from their uniquenes? Why play a pet clas when you can just play any class and get whatever damn pet you want? Is this a one size fits all kinda thing, so that they no longer have to worry about pet balance? Im just a bit blown away by this and still trying to recover. I guess Im just in shock. Because frankly its the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard. Im having difficulty not seeing red right now, so I guess Ill leave this one alone for now. But this is an extremely horrible idea to me. Hopefully later on Ill feel better about it, but right now............

    I dont really see this as any more shocking than saying everyone gets the 1H Blunt skill. Warriors arent up in arms about the fact that a Wizard can club something over the head with their staff. It detracts nothing at all from the Warrior or the need for his specializations. It doesnt make the Warrior irrelevent, or water a Warrior down to being more like a Wizard, does it? And it sure as hell doesnt inherently mean that a Wizard is going to rely on their 1H Blunt skill in any meaningful way.

    If your Rogue has a crow pet sitting on her shoulder that allows her to send it out and scout over a camp to see what kind of layout exists, she has no more diluted the uniqueness of a Summoner with a demon that can rip the arms off of a goblin than a Paladin diluting the uniqueness of a Cleric by having a heal spell. 

    It's all a matter of scale and implimentation. 

    What you're suggesting is that it's not realistic for every person to be able to raise a puppy. I will concede that not all people will be able to get it to do cool tricks or turn it into a show dog. But for the sake of this argument, anyone could keep it alive. And for the sake of this discussion, just because every class can have a pet doesnt mean that every class gets some kind of meaningful benefit in terms of combat effectiveness by having one. 


    This post was edited by Feyshtey at June 5, 2016 7:07 AM PDT
    • 208 posts
    June 5, 2016 7:31 AM PDT
    The term "pets" seems to be used in a much broader sense then what I think many are interpreting it for. In that post it was mentioned that pets can be anything,even machinery, to me it sounds like your mounts and various modes of transportation will be considered pets as well. I did't get the image that everyone in a raid will have a full attack pet, rather you may be required to say to raise or create your own mounts and level them in the way you want to use them. Kinda like how you wouldn't take a baby horse, raise it as a workhorse for hauling then turn around and take it to the racetrack. This kinda thing wouldn't bother me and I think it will add another layer of immersion to the game.