Perhaps this has been thought of before, but on the odd chance it hasn’t…
One of the problems with MMOs is the end game. Once players reach the top level they tend to gather there and make hunting the end items a pain. They also might get bored and leave. They can also end up twinking alts or other players with the excess gear they acquire, but don’t need. All of this destabilizes the game. Adding expansions for the purpose of giving the high level players something new to do and achieve has a tendency to make old areas empty and obsolete.
A solution to this might be:
LIFE SPANS
Rather than allowing a players to level up and overcrowd camps, making a top-heavy game, you trim them off, clearing out the deadwood to make room for new growth.
The idea is this: Each character has a finite number of playing hours before the character dies of old age and can no longer be used. The number of hours would vary according to race. Races that have added advantages such as night vision, better dexterity (starting abilities that make them level faster) will have shorter life spans.
Life spans would also be affected by constitution score, which can be reduced as a result of repeated deaths. So you could lose one point of constitution per ten deaths. (This number could also be raised by doing challenging quests. It is even possible that friends can do a constitution quest on behalf of a dead friend.)
BUT NO ONE WAN'T TO LOSE A POWERFUL CHARACTER
Granted, no one is going to like spending a year or two (depending on the life span) leveling a character only to have it erased. Unless…you give them a reward.
When a character dies of old age, this opens a special character creation slot, (similar to the jedi knight in Star Wars Galaxies.) Let’s call it hereditary characters. Hereditary characters can inherit some or even all items from their ancestor. They also get a last name. (no other character can have a last name, which sets them apart.) The last name is their dynasty. Anyone seeing someone with a last name, knows they have played the game through to max level and now are doing it again.
HEREDITARY CHARACTERS
Hereditary characters are very different than starting characters.
Unlike the first time through where the focus is on exploration and obtaining gear, hereditary characters seek to do special quests (only available to hereditary characters) to obtain special abilities. This reduces the chances of twinking or of camping mobs that lower characters need, but as the quests can take place in normal zones, they reuse the same areas. These abilities are similar to the AA rewards of old EverQuest. An extra spell slot; increased run speed; etc. Some of these abilities like the ability to jump higher or farther, or breath without air, might be required to do some quests that will take them to new places normal characters can’t physically reach.
While hereditary characters start with better gear (handed down) and some new abilities (like an extra spell slot) and the ability to gain more and better abilities, their gaming experience will get much harder. It will take more exp to level, aggro range might be larger, but the biggest problem is that they have enemies. Special enemies.
Assassins will seek to kill all hereditary characters. Assassins are deadly mobs that randomly spawn in every zone/vicinity and pose no threat to normal players. But if a hereditary character is in that area, they begin to hunt them. Hereditary characters might have ways to hide—like not using their powers—but assassins should be dangerous.
(A full group of hereditary characters might intentionally draw assassins in to fight them, because a full group of these special character can have speical added bonuses or abilites.)
The idea is that while hereditary characters have added abilities, they also should have a much harder time advancing, and the game play, while it might take place in the same familiar zones, should be a totally different experience because the hereditary characters are dealing with different goals and problems.
THIRD TIER
If a hereditary character levels to the top. It too will die, and a third tier hereditary characters can be created, one with three names. Abilities transfer the same as gear. New quests become available, but now the assassins aren’t highly skilled people, they are demons. And third tier hereditary characters are born auto-PoV with other third tier hereditary characters. One item can be taken from a slain 3rd tier hereditary character, and this could spawn feuds and dynasty wars.
It is expected that players could simply log on and do nothing, ticking off the hours until they can create a hereditary character. (This would be dumb, because they would also need the gear, but it is possible.) To counter act this, the life span timer might not kick in until they completed the highest level, or near to it.
In this way, the game can be played through several times with different experiences, and players will be rewarded with that all important visible flag of success over every player’s head. New content can be added to the game, but now the expansions will be for everyone, not merely high-end players, and that content can be kept in-line with existing strength levels so as to prevent old levels and areas from becoming obsolete.
The game can, then, be expanded into infinity without ruining the original vision or losing the viability of the starting areas.
GHOSTS
Another interesting addition could be that deceased characters can still be played as ghosts. They have a limited ability to affect the living world and aren’t even visible most of the time to living players. But they can appear to living players for a short while and communicate with them. This would allow players to visit old friends, or explore new zones without actually playing. Or…
This could be worked into a whole separate game where ghosts explore the Afterlife, a whole new series of zones where they fight and do quests that are partially dependent on the living. So perhaps a ghost cannot do certain things until their descendant achieves a certain goal, or by completing a quest they can provide their ghostly ancestors with weapons, items, or abilities. This then has players running tandem characters, leveling and questing with one so that they can advance the other in a parallel plane. A ghost player could even be the guide for living players helping them to achieve a goal for both of them.
All of this will extend the life span of a game with the least amount of new development and, I hope help to, eliminate many of the problems associated with the end game.
Of course, it could also have unexpected negatives. Testing obviously would be needed.
It’s a thought anyway.
There is another mmo that has just been kickstarted that is doing this idea. Not going to give a link as im not sure of the rules but it is called chronicles of elyria. With the style of this being so diffrent prehaps it is best to leave it to them for now and focus on the party based content instead for PoF.
Interesting concept, but I don't think it fits the construct of this game. Levels, raids, and guilds were put in this game from the ground up. Guilds can't work on raid content if their raid members keep dying to old age and heart disease. Again, I like the idea, but the entire game needs to be designed from the beginning with that in mind. This game is in full swing.
Not for me, either. My characters gain personality in my head. The ones I play heavily become somewhat dear to me. They are the core of the memories I have of every game I've really enjoyed. Killing them off would limit that embedded memory to whatever lifespan some mechanic determined. No thanks.
How about this, You have made max level with your character and you have squeezed all of the enjoyment you can out of it. The game gives you the ability, IF YOU WISH, to create an ansestor that inherites everything from your old character including name if you want it. Your old character is gone forever and you start your new character at level one with all of the items, housing, plat, of the old character.
Skycaster said:How about this, You have made max level with your character and you have squeezed all of the enjoyment you can out of it. The game gives you the ability, IF YOU WISH, to create an ansestor that inherites everything from your old character including name if you want it. Your old character is gone forever and you start your new character at level one with all of the items, housing, plat, of the old character.
Thats literally what has been proposed in the progeny system.
Dullahan said:Skycaster said:How about this, You have made max level with your character and you have squeezed all of the enjoyment you can out of it. The game gives you the ability, IF YOU WISH, to create an ansestor that inherites everything from your old character including name if you want it. Your old character is gone forever and you start your new character at level one with all of the items, housing, plat, of the old character.
Thats literally what has been proposed in the progeny system.
Exactly.
And how pissed would you be the day you click yes on that transaction and an hour later they announce an expansion that increases the level cap...
Feyshtey said:Dullahan said:Skycaster said:How about this, You have made max level with your character and you have squeezed all of the enjoyment you can out of it. The game gives you the ability, IF YOU WISH, to create an ansestor that inherites everything from your old character including name if you want it. Your old character is gone forever and you start your new character at level one with all of the items, housing, plat, of the old character.
Thats literally what has been proposed in the progeny system.
Exactly.
And how pissed would you be the day you click yes on that transaction and an hour later they announce an expansion that increases the level cap...
That is precisely why I posted it, it is already laid out and probably in the works in some fashion already.
Ha yeah, while I could not do away with my main, it would be my luck to do away with a high lvl Ranger alt and the best, and only, expansion in the world for Rangers came out a day later.
The mindset I had from EQ was, this was the only game I wil need to play, because it goes on and on. For instance, the DLC content for fall out4 is too soon for me and my "FPS shooter" type games likethis will take a back seat when pantheon comes out. I still have an unopened New Vegas- because I have not yet meta-gamed Fallout 3.
What advice to my kind of meta gaming?
This is why i am keen on timing of expansions, as some will go very fast, and may influence more push to get more expansions- but I dont have data on the average time to get through content, but I asume it is somewhat like a bell curve. As a result I felt in a rush when expansions came out and felt I was "missing something" in the "old" worlds.
because of thisI was not a big fan o falts, as I had things to do and quest for that I could really used that friend I made- only to feel betrayed because they had an alt they were working on.
Also, I made series of friends, and a good magical couple of years where the same friends remained- but I anticipate that kind of thing, it was new to me in EQ, though.
Feyshtey said:Dullahan said:Skycaster said:How about this, You have made max level with your character and you have squeezed all of the enjoyment you can out of it. The game gives you the ability, IF YOU WISH, to create an ansestor that inherites everything from your old character including name if you want it. Your old character is gone forever and you start your new character at level one with all of the items, housing, plat, of the old character.
Thats literally what has been proposed in the progeny system.
Exactly.
And how pissed would you be the day you click yes on that transaction and an hour later they announce an expansion that increases the level cap...
Less upset than if I logged in and got a message "Your character died of old age last night, here's your new level1 character" ;)
eldeberon said:Perhaps this has been thought of before, but on the odd chance it hasn’t…
One of the problems with MMOs is the end game. Once players reach the top level they tend to gather there and make hunting the end items a pain. They also might get bored and leave. They can also end up twinking alts or other players with the excess gear they acquire, but don’t need. All of this destabilizes the game. Adding expansions for the purpose of giving the high level players something new to do and achieve has a tendency to make old areas empty and obsolete.
A solution to this might be:
LIFE SPANS
Rather than allowing a players to level up and overcrowd camps, making a top-heavy game, you trim them off, clearing out the deadwood to make room for new growth.The idea is this: Each character has a finite number of playing hours before the character dies of old age and can no longer be used. The number of hours would vary according to race. Races that have added advantages such as night vision, better dexterity (starting abilities that make them level faster) will have shorter life spans.
Life spans would also be affected by constitution score, which can be reduced as a result of repeated deaths. So you could lose one point of constitution per ten deaths. (This number could also be raised by doing challenging quests. It is even possible that friends can do a constitution quest on behalf of a dead friend.)
BUT NO ONE WAN'T TO LOSE A POWERFUL CHARACTER
Granted, no one is going to like spending a year or two (depending on the life span) leveling a character only to have it erased. Unless…you give them a reward.
When a character dies of old age, this opens a special character creation slot, (similar to the jedi knight in Star Wars Galaxies.) Let’s call it hereditary characters. Hereditary characters can inherit some or even all items from their ancestor. They also get a last name. (no other character can have a last name, which sets them apart.) The last name is their dynasty. Anyone seeing someone with a last name, knows they have played the game through to max level and now are doing it again.
HEREDITARY CHARACTERS
Hereditary characters are very different than starting characters.Unlike the first time through where the focus is on exploration and obtaining gear, hereditary characters seek to do special quests (only available to hereditary characters) to obtain special abilities. This reduces the chances of twinking or of camping mobs that lower characters need, but as the quests can take place in normal zones, they reuse the same areas. These abilities are similar to the AA rewards of old EverQuest. An extra spell slot; increased run speed; etc. Some of these abilities like the ability to jump higher or farther, or breath without air, might be required to do some quests that will take them to new places normal characters can’t physically reach.
While hereditary characters start with better gear (handed down) and some new abilities (like an extra spell slot) and the ability to gain more and better abilities, their gaming experience will get much harder. It will take more exp to level, aggro range might be larger, but the biggest problem is that they have enemies. Special enemies.
Assassins will seek to kill all hereditary characters. Assassins are deadly mobs that randomly spawn in every zone/vicinity and pose no threat to normal players. But if a hereditary character is in that area, they begin to hunt them. Hereditary characters might have ways to hide—like not using their powers—but assassins should be dangerous.
(A full group of hereditary characters might intentionally draw assassins in to fight them, because a full group of these special character can have speical added bonuses or abilites.)
The idea is that while hereditary characters have added abilities, they also should have a much harder time advancing, and the game play, while it might take place in the same familiar zones, should be a totally different experience because the hereditary characters are dealing with different goals and problems.
THIRD TIER
If a hereditary character levels to the top. It too will die, and a third tier hereditary characters can be created, one with three names. Abilities transfer the same as gear. New quests become available, but now the assassins aren’t highly skilled people, they are demons. And third tier hereditary characters are born auto-PoV with other third tier hereditary characters. One item can be taken from a slain 3rd tier hereditary character, and this could spawn feuds and dynasty wars.It is expected that players could simply log on and do nothing, ticking off the hours until they can create a hereditary character. (This would be dumb, because they would also need the gear, but it is possible.) To counter act this, the life span timer might not kick in until they completed the highest level, or near to it.
In this way, the game can be played through several times with different experiences, and players will be rewarded with that all important visible flag of success over every player’s head. New content can be added to the game, but now the expansions will be for everyone, not merely high-end players, and that content can be kept in-line with existing strength levels so as to prevent old levels and areas from becoming obsolete.
The game can, then, be expanded into infinity without ruining the original vision or losing the viability of the starting areas.
GHOSTS
Another interesting addition could be that deceased characters can still be played as ghosts. They have a limited ability to affect the living world and aren’t even visible most of the time to living players. But they can appear to living players for a short while and communicate with them. This would allow players to visit old friends, or explore new zones without actually playing. Or…
This could be worked into a whole separate game where ghosts explore the Afterlife, a whole new series of zones where they fight and do quests that are partially dependent on the living. So perhaps a ghost cannot do certain things until their descendant achieves a certain goal, or by completing a quest they can provide their ghostly ancestors with weapons, items, or abilities. This then has players running tandem characters, leveling and questing with one so that they can advance the other in a parallel plane. A ghost player could even be the guide for living players helping them to achieve a goal for both of them.
All of this will extend the life span of a game with the least amount of new development and, I hope help to, eliminate many of the problems associated with the end game.
Of course, it could also have unexpected negatives. Testing obviously would be needed.
It’s a thought anyway.
Great first post... love your enthusiasm..!
Pantheon will have traditional roles and game mechanics, but it will not play out like previous RPG games. Like in life, there are Athletes, Bankers, Political leaders, etc.. there is no justifiable "end game". Just a continious stream of people striving to be their best. Same with our Terminus story world being created by VRi..
Best armor at the highest peaks, in the frozen tundra fighting dragons... , may not be the best armor for using deep within a tropical swamp, knee deep in muck fighting a Lich. There will be a higher learning curve with Pantheon, than with EQ & VG. It will be a much more heady game. Thus more player logistics in min/maxing, etc.
Twinks won't matter as much.. because your PLAYER skill will matter more in combat, than with what your Character is wearing. Knowing your Character (& being intimate with his development) will be more important than what he has bought to wear..
Welcome aboard..
Hieromonk said:Best armor at the highest peaks, in the frozen tundra fighting dragons... , may not be the best armor for using deep within a tropical swamp, knee deep in muck fighting a Lich. There will be a higher learning curve with Pantheon, than with EQ & VG. It will be a much more heady game. Thus more player logistics in min/maxing, etc.
Twinks won't matter as much.. because your PLAYER skill will matter more in combat, than with what your Character is wearing. Knowing your Character (& being intimate with his development) will be more important than what he has bought to wear..
This actually runs counter to what the devs have stated. They have talked about the importance of equipping your character. Particularly for specific environments or encounters. While I agree that they appear to be placing value on player skill and knowledge as well, I've heard nothing to indicate that equipment will be a tertiary consideration. That's essentially what both the relic and codex game mechnics are; aquiring things that improve your effectiveness. They've talked about the notable advantages to both.
This is one of those ideas I just have to say, “I don’t think it will work”. Ok, so how does the game mechanics work for a 75 year old wielding a pair of crutches? Unless these characters are all super beings the older generations will be a real hoot to play. Geriatric combat styles. I am just not seeing it nor do I want to experience that. Now that I think about I think I will pass on that game.
Ox
How about THIS!! instead of killing the character off, once they get old, they have to do daily quests to find heart medication, or search for materials to craft a new walker. Reduce their run speed by 90%
Keeps them busy so they won't be farming gear the kids need!
Hieromonk said:Twinks won't matter as much.. because your PLAYER skill will matter more in combat, than with what your Character is wearing. Knowing your Character (& being intimate with his development) will be more important than what he has bought to wear..
No offense Hiero, because I love YOUR enthusiam, but like many of your posts, this one has some fairly outlandish and unsubstantiated claims.
If Pantheon is to be a traditional MMORPG (which by all accounts, it is), the statement regarding Skill vs Gear in bold cannot be accurate. Pantheon, like EQ and Vanguard, had plenty of room for the more skilled players to excel. A player lacking knowledge of their characer and class certainly had a great deal of limitations. However, their greatest source of power was their stats from levels and items, like all good mmorpgs, rpgs, muds and tabletop games before them.
The entire point of the stat system as far back as DnD, was to serve as a way of empowering your character largely by playing the game. That is what makes these games to attractive to your average Joe who doesn't necessarily want the stress of a game where success is largely contingent on superior mental acuity or dexterity.
What you are describing sounds more like Black Desert where action combat or aiming is the most important factor.
Also, I'm not really sure Pantheon will initially have the kind of sandbox depth you describe, though I too hope that it will. From what we know, the adventuring sphere of gameplay will, by far, be the focus of Pantheon.
Dullahan said:Hieromonk said:Twinks won't matter as much.. because your PLAYER skill will matter more in combat, than with what your Character is wearing. Knowing your Character (& being intimate with his development) will be more important than what he has bought to wear..
No offense Hiero, because I love YOUR enthusiam, but like many of your posts, this one has some fairly outlandish and unsubstantiated claims.
If Pantheon is to be a traditional MMORPG (which by all accounts, it is), the statement regarding Skill vs Gear in bold cannot be accurate. Pantheon, like EQ and Vanguard, had plenty of room for the more skilled players to excel. A player lacking knowledge of their characer and class certainly had a great deal of limitations. However, their greatest source of power was their stats from levels and items, like all good mmorpgs, rpgs, muds and tabletop games before them.
The entire point of the stat system as far back as DnD, was to serve as a way of empowering your character largely by playing the game. That is what makes these games to attractive to your average Joe who doesn't necessarily want the stress of a game where success is largely contingent on superior mental acuity or dexterity.
What you are describing sounds more like Black Desert where action combat or aiming is the most important factor.
Also, I'm not really sure Pantheon will initially have the kind of sandbox depth you describe, though I too hope that it will. From what we know, the adventuring sphere of gameplay will, by far, be the focus of Pantheon.
No, you let Feyshtey define my remarks. Instead of me.
What about the tale of two Players... thus two different Warriors.
One Player spends their resources aquiring awsome freak'n high end gear for his Warrior...! The other player, spent his/her resources, developing their character to a deeper degree & sought out far away Masters to teach them new Combat techniques. Not to mention, not every class will have all the same abilities, or even spells loaded, etc. (ie: PLAYER skill & PLAYER knowledge come into play).
SO to defend my point... in Pantheon one could have a Warrior with awsome uber gear, with ultra stats... but has also never learned the ability to block, or reposte or disarm. Absentmindedly, those ahbilities in EQ were given to your class. In Panthoen, most will skills and abilities will have to be sought out and learned. (Thus their character will need further development by the Player). Like in Vanguard.
Magical 2-hand ubder Axe of dustruction.... great weapon & stats. But, do your Character have enough magical 2-hand skill to wield it... has your warrior had magical training(?), and to what degree..? What level of trials..? How well has the PLAYER honed his character's skill..?
As you can see, that Character development and how a Player chooses to develop their character, will make for dynamic role playing experience. But donning the best armor in the game means very little if you don't know how to interact with other classes, in your role. And good character equipment & stats never makes up for a bad player controlling that character.
Gear only matter in how you use it. Gear will never make the player...
Player skill comes in many forms, twitch is not a method of roleplaying your character. Manual dexterity & twitch is for arcade style games, like Battlefield One.
I do understand what you're saying Hiero, and I agree to a point. The devs have talked about the Transcedent abilities that you can scribe into your Codex with Prime Scrolls, for example. They do describe those skills as the most powerful skills that your player can aquire. Wholly agree with you there. However, they have not discussed what aquiring those skills actually looks like. Is it a relatively simple drop or quest to get a Prime Scroll (or some? or all?) , or a raid encounter or series of raid encounters only a percentage of the population will ever complete? Is the baseline Transcendent skill something you can be pretty sure every player will eventually stumble upon no matter how disconnected they may be, but its really the signets, seals and brands that are really tough to get and choose that really make that skill powerful?
Point is, we dont know what the actual implimentation looks like. And regardless of what you call the thing or how it is utlized in game, it's a thing you aquire and ulitize not at all unlike gear in many respects. Some people will have the uber skills, and some wont. Some will know where and how to best use those skills, some wont. Someone will parse the hell out of the combinations of configurations and post the best of them for others to utilize without any personal thought or research required.
And I'll bet you some in game cash that decking out a lowbie character with the best gear your high level character can get (that the lowbie can use) will make a big difference in effectiveness and rate of advancement. Consider alone that if the skills you were talking about really take travel, and time, and effort and player knowledge to obtain, a low level character can't be expected to have any of that. But if they can heavily pad their stats up front with gear it'll sure make the journey to acquire all those things a hell of a lot more smooth :)