I wanted to know what you all think? Should there be lots of under water places to explore? Lots of lakes to cross or submerge to the bottom to discover hidden places? What is some of your creative input here? Stick to the subject of water....
I like some "Water" combat, The controls in most MMO's for "Water" combat suck. I like finding underwater cities and exploring them but if the controls for operating under water sucks, it should just not happen.
This review on under-water levels is pretty acurate:
In general there should be some impact from water, but i think it should be minimized and underwater ruins etc should be rare and a place of awe when discovered! As for lakes i am all for that. Now as far as combat goes, As for the report i dont find it at all to be acurate.
And here are my couterpoints to that report
1.(1) Nobody is ever clamoring for underwater zones
Now while this point is very acurate the question that should be asked why is that? Is it because of the lack of devotion in creating something that puts us in awe and leads us on a dangerous path to something meaningful. While i also agree with this point i also disagree and blame the industrie also. Just because it becomes strange to us we as players have to start adapting. It comes down to spoon feeding us again as players. The industrie doesnt think we are smart enough or willing to adapt to situations anymore (Which is to some point partially true)
2.(2) It’s a wet speed bump
Welcome to Pantheon where we actually welcome this speed bump. You see that is the problem with yesterdays MMOs and our Gamer Behaviour nowadays nothing is fast enough or easy enough. Remember how it used to be where we had challenge and depth and frustraction that was actually fun. Pantheon is trying to archive that feeling again. I don`t know if you have looked around here or seen comments all over the Internet about MMO Gamer frustraction with the current pattern of MMOs but i would guesstimate that at least 70% of old school mmo gamers are looking forward to having this speed restraint back in place and the argument in that statement makes me wonder!
The average run speed of a human being is at 10-15mph for a reasonable amount of distance.
The average swim speed of a human being is at 2mph for a reasonable amount of distance.
yes i know this is a real life example but still the review insists that this point destorys immersion. well that aint the case
Immersion:
1. an act or instance of immersing.
There is a major difference being spoon fed, and adapting.... The lack of underwater worlds in the current mmo's is not drived by the "Spood feeding" players of the newer generation. Underwater worlds killed them selves.
No mmo has successfully added an underwater world and have the player coming out feeling like "WOW that was fun, lets do that again!"... Sure make a slower paced world, that is fine. I am all for that.... but when you move as slow as a snail and require battles that take 2 days to fight all while trying to manage your air.... Sure there is magic in the games universe and players can cast some sort of ability to breath underwater, but that honestly annoys most casters of having an additional utility buff that they have to remember to cast onto the entire party every 5-20 minutes... Ouh **** someone died underwater... where did his corpse go? I don't know, I cant see... there is no vision clarity or buff that has been beneficial for underwater. Sure you can add some amazing scenery underwater but if you can't see it, whats the point?
lets reitterate what the review said about the combat too... Where is the enemy? Up, down? left? right? diagonal? Behind me? Which way is up now? Oouh is he above or below you? you now have to maneuver some weird path to go up or down to get within fighing range of the enemy.
All around underwater worlds are just not enjoyable... sure slow pace is nice, sure not being spoon fed is amazing!, but underwater worlds are just generally bad...
Don't feel like I am attacking your reply, it made some great points... but there are to many Con's compared the Pro's in the underwater levels. If the Dev team of Pantheon can pull it off, then kudos to them. Its just every mmo has made me personally hate underwater levels.
Now see all these factors mentioned again do not apply solely to the "not being fun" the main issue is the lack of intelligent moveability, intelligent combat etc. The issue is mostly a mechanical failure. Now the argument of having caster failure to remember to remember to cast their "spell" and that this is more of a pain to them, well sorry but guess what thats your job as a caster as it is the tanks job to taunt or the healer to cure etc. Just because is annoys the caster doesn`t make it a bad thing.
Not all caster stuff is laid back some work does aplly to caster too.
Again generally bad...has reason to why that is. They do not have to be like that but if we just submit to them just being generally bad then tough luck thats how it is. But we all know it doenst have to be this way.
With dicussiions like this though the Developers might at least get general ideas to why this sucks and what they would have to do to make it not suck. Feedback goes along way when it is engaged correctly. Its like the general public say this is bad so it must be attitude is just FILL IN WORD HERE Thats why i kind of went into a detailed view of the Review because it was more of a generalised approach without any support behind it apart from because.
Movement like i stated before is a problem and i do not deny that, this is something that would really need to be worked on and as you said if Pantheon were to persue something like this and they could pull it off then "JOB WELL DONE"
And again you are talking about todays MMOS which i also related my reasoning to. We are looking for quality and we as gamers need to stop thinking in the present and always comparing to the "Rubbish" that is out there now and talk more about what can help move the genre into the next stage and bring it back to the glory.
Really like the discussion sofar! Keep it coming we may yet make UNDERWATER ADVENTURING GREAT
Perhaps I'm in the minority but I enjoy under water zones and dungeons. In fact a spell or song that allows me and my group to breathe underwater is sometimes reason enough for me to play a particular class.
I would love to see sea travel and exploration be a part of Pantheon. Something akin to what Archeage had or vanguards ships but with interesting content on the seas.
As long as movement and combat are both fun and intuitive, sounds good. I remember Brad talking about hand signs and gestures for areas of silence, might apply to underwater areas too.
Also dont forget about above water content, like naval combat (could also be PvE with Pirate encounters), or using a small boat for fishing and salvaging old sea wrecks.
Moving around under water requires somewhat more coordination, and it can certainly be challenging if the controls don't support this well. However if its done well, the underwater experience can be awesome. I loved it in GW2 and Archeage. EQ has nice underwater places too (Kedge Keep!) but it can be annoying to move around (for example, can only swim up/down in first person view).
I'm hoping for some great underwater sceneries and adventures in Pantheon!
I too loved Kedge Keep. It was isolated, alien, hostile, and dangerous. You really got the feeling of "I shouldnt be here..." This is my kind of water zone. It wasnt a place you'd typically go to grind exp, but was a frequented zone for a number of the games epics and other quests. Veksar was also great, and required you to take a swim to get there. The zone itself also had underwater parts, which made things interesting. Sunken cities, shipwrecks, flooded mines, underwater cave systems... yes, yes, yes, and yes.
I really liked the way underwater content was presented in Skyrim. There were reasons to explore under the oceans, lakes and rivers. Lost treasure, shipwrecks, hidden chests... The exploration value was incredible, but it wasnt a primary focus for content.
What I don't want to see is Little Mermaid "Under Da Sea" zones like Vashj'ir in WoW. Lots of neat concepts, but was ultimately an underwater carnival designed for 20 second attention spans; a guided tour from one cheap ride to the next. The equivelant of going to Six Flags and riding nothing but the ocean-themed tea cups over and over. After some time you finaly realize the seriousness of the situation... there are THREE ZONES JUST LIKE THIS that you need to complete. /quit
LeonSanborn said:...This review on under-water levels is pretty acurate:
That "review" on under-water zones is completely innacurate. Just becuase some opinionated fool figured out how to post his blog, doesn't make him an authority and when he says something "factually" don't believe him or give it any credibility. This guy's "review" is total crap and completely false.
I absolutely love underwater zones - they should be slow, sluggish, dangerous and hard to move in. They should require breathing and care against drowning. They should have annoying currents and visibility issues. I love, love, love underwater zones.
I loved Kedge Keep. I loved the portal room hidden in the middle of EQ's ocean (I forget which one). I loved the dungeon under LOIO, I loved the goblin pyramids in Lake Rathe.
Kedge Keep was possibly one of the most brilliant zones ever made. Ever.
I won't really comment on the potential for underwater zones and combat at this time. Brad has already stated that if they can improve upon the status quo and make under water content fun and engaging, they will.
I'm more interested in the role of water to the economy (both micro and macro), local and global culture and as a barrier. Rivers, lakes and oceans have played an enormous role in shaping human evolution on earth. Bodies of water act as transportation, centers of commerce and battlefields. The opportunity for water to play as large a role on Terminus is undeniable and a topic I find far more interesting. I would love to read lore about seafaring cultures of Terminus and how they spread knowledge, ideas, wealth, goods, war, disease, etc. to other areas of the world. I want to know how bodies of water helped feed the peoples of Terminus, fueling farming and irrigation, fishing and trade. I want to know how water shaped (and still shapes) the landscape. And of course, the destructive force of water and the challenges that it creates for those that depend on it for life. Finally, how has water acted as a barrier and shaped the ways in which civilizations are different?
These are the principles that help to create a vibrant living world.
Edit: Format/font
Nikademis said:I won't really comment on the potential for underwater zones and combat at this time. Brad has already stated that if they can improve upon the status quo and make under water content fun and engaging, they will.
I'm more interested in the role of water to the economy (both micro and macro), local and global culture and as a barrier. Rivers, lakes and oceans have played an enormous role in shaping human evolution on earth. Bodies of water act as transportation, centers of commerce and battlefields. The opportunity for water to play as large a role on Terminus is undeniable and a topic I find far more interesting. I would love to read lore about seafaring cultures of Terminus and how they spread knowledge, ideas, wealth, goods, war, disease, etc. to other areas of the world. I want to know how bodies of water helped feed the peoples of Terminus, fueling farming and irrigation, fishing and trade. I want to know how water shaped (and still shapes) the landscape. And of course, the destructive force of water and the challenges that it creates for those that depend on it for life. Finally, how has water acted as a barrier and shaped the ways in which civilizations are different?
These are the principles that help to create a vibrant living world.
Edit: Format/font
That's a wonderful line of thinking - I hope it gets some traction and I agree with it.
fazool said:Nikademis said:I won't really comment on the potential for underwater zones and combat at this time. Brad has already stated that if they can improve upon the status quo and make under water content fun and engaging, they will.
I'm more interested in the role of water to the economy (both micro and macro), local and global culture and as a barrier. Rivers, lakes and oceans have played an enormous role in shaping human evolution on earth. Bodies of water act as transportation, centers of commerce and battlefields. The opportunity for water to play as large a role on Terminus is undeniable and a topic I find far more interesting. I would love to read lore about seafaring cultures of Terminus and how they spread knowledge, ideas, wealth, goods, war, disease, etc. to other areas of the world. I want to know how bodies of water helped feed the peoples of Terminus, fueling farming and irrigation, fishing and trade. I want to know how water shaped (and still shapes) the landscape. And of course, the destructive force of water and the challenges that it creates for those that depend on it for life. Finally, how has water acted as a barrier and shaped the ways in which civilizations are different?
These are the principles that help to create a vibrant living world.
Edit: Format/font
That's a wonderful line of thinking - I hope it gets some traction and I agree with it.
Thank you ;)
It would be nice if there were writings on the history of Terminus and the ways in which water affected the different cultures, though I think that's likely a stretch. But even being able to see some of the logical effects in game will go a long way in bringing the world to life. For example, it’s no coincidence that throughout human history thriving population centers have sprung up near major bodies of water. This principle can be seen in countless civilizations, from the Egyptians to the Greeks, Constantinople to the British Isles, Southeast Asia to the Hawaiian Islands, and in modern western culture from Seattle to Melbourne, Toronto to San Francisco. Water is key in sustaining life, not only at the cellular level but at a societal and anthropological level as well.
I think copious use of water is fine, as long as the game mechanics are good enough to support it.
EQ would have been a better game with literally no water whatsoever. It was nice to look at but god damn the mechanics of swimming utterly sucked in EQ. If the game is built with measures to make underwater gameplay fun, I think it'd be a welcome addition. If it's going to be unfun cancer like EQ, then pls no.
Liav said:I think copious use of water is fine, as long as the game mechanics are good enough to support it.
EQ would have been a better game with literally no water whatsoever. It was nice to look at but god damn the mechanics of swimming utterly sucked in EQ. If the game is built with measures to make underwater gameplay fun, I think it'd be a welcome addition. If it's going to be unfun cancer like EQ, then pls no.
I totally agree here. EQ was awful. WoW was ok and GW2 has some good mechanics. Nothing worse than jumping into the water and finding you are helpless and get totally frustrated with the game play. I used to have make sure my harsh language module was uninstalled in EQ. My wife would ask what are you yelling at? Fun times to reflect on but would not like it if the machanics are garbage.
Ox
Oxillion said:I totally agree here. EQ was awful. WoW was ok and GW2 has some good mechanics. Nothing worse than jumping into the water and finding you are helpless and get totally frustrated with the game play. I used to have make sure my harsh language module was uninstalled in EQ. My wife would ask what are you yelling at? Fun times to reflect on but would not like it if the machanics are garbage.
Ox
Vanguard did water alright, if only because of the bug where you would walk along the bottom of a body of water if you cast levitate while underwater. EQ2 did something similar except it was an intentional mechanic, although underwater combat wasn't really utilized much in EQ2.
I liked GW2's underwater combat, honestly. It was very intuitive and having dedicated weapons (harpoons, etc.) for underwater use was pretty neat. Only thing I'd hate would be having to unequip my epic for an underwater fight. Not cool at all.
I think I'm honestly just getting to the point where I think water for transportation-only purposes would be acceptable. No enemy/NPC interactions in water, just swimming/boating or whatever else. Come up with a lore reason for why sharks won't attack you in water.
Great stuff so far everyone!
I really, really liked Archeage's water mechanics. Most of us spent 80% of our time out there or in the water. I can remember nights standing out by the lighthouse scanning for ememies coming a shore with foreign trade packs to steal. As I stood there, you got the sensation that you were starring into a real body of water. Was simply amazing to be honest...
Guild Wars 2 also had some really fun water mechanics.
I guess the reason I brought this up is this... To me, a realistic, immersive world, would most likely have water in it... I absolutely love the concept of finding hidden things within dangerous, large bodies of water. Could be a hidden cave that leads to a secret ruin to dungeon crawl. Could be an underwater path that takes you up under a mountain range, leading to the other side. Could be an underwater ruin that ends up being 1/2 wet crawl and 1/2 dry crawl to find bosses.
There are some cool possibilities with water.. Brad, I would be interested to hear some feedback from you and the Devs on what we can expect from water in Pantheon, the latest and greatest.
I like the "Idea" of exploring under water and finding things if the mechanics are decent. I am not big on underwater combat but we should have some that is well done, just to have it in the mix.
It can be exciting if all the wrong things happen and you and your group live to tell about it.
I remember the first time I traveled to the Western Wastes in EQ, We had to dive in the very murky water in Cobalt Scar ( they probably have it crystal clear now ) and find the entrance to Sirens Grotto, half the group almost drowned finding it.
When we zoned into Sirens Grotto some Mages Pet was whipping my ass the second we zoned in. The pet was charmed by one of the Sirens and a huge group of various mobs had been trained to the zone line and people were going down. I evacuated my group as our Ranger(also Charmed) and a couple Walruses were beating our Cleric to death, it put us at the other end of the zone and we just zoned into western wastes. We had avoided the entire zone and went on our way.
(Edit: I remember the Cleric Died when we landed after evac but the evac caught him in the nick of time, He was bound at the Gypsy Camp in North Karana and I had to travel and get him and bring him back, Ahhh the life of a Wizard.)
I evacuated many people over the years through that zone on our way to the Temple of Veeshan. The zone in to Sirens Grotto was usually ok, but you never would know what was waiting for you. I think the water entrance just made it that much better. Water can be fun in moderation.
fazool said:LeonSanborn said:...This review on under-water levels is pretty acurate:
That "review" on under-water zones is completely innacurate. Just becuase some opinionated fool figured out how to post his blog, doesn't make him an authority and when he says something "factually" don't believe him or give it any credibility. This guy's "review" is total crap and completely false.
You cannot say the "review" is total crap and completely false when the guy that posted the review made some pretty damn good points. If you are going to completely shut something down, maybe add a reason to it, that may narrow down the problem more. Alot of people here seem to like and dislike water levels. I am one of those players that dislike it. It makes everyone completely irritated after a while whether you'd like to admit it or not. Who likes spending what feels like an eternity swimming through 1 zone just to get to another? For certian, I do not like spending all my free time swimming just to reach the next zone, just to find more damn water to swim through. Most MMO's underwater mechanics as I said before suck complete (Insert word here). From either the character swimming at unrealistic speeds to swimming like a sloth. From jumping into the water and being like oouh joy, Fish vision and no ability or spell will clear things up, and if there is a spell it barely freaking works.. JOYOUS.... Trying to navigate through the water? Oouh man we either have to make this a cake walk like most modern MMO's, or make is SUPER (insert word here) difficult such as EQ1. for most combat most of the time you are paying more attention to your "Air Supply" than the actual fight. IF you have a mage that can cast a spell to breath underwater that is slightly different... Then there is the point of which when a player dies and his corpse sinks to the bottom of the ocean.. Hey guys did you see where the corpse went? What was the LOC? I don't know, I can't (insert word here) see anything.
Then on top of that you have to worry about aggro range, okay that makes sense... But you cannot really tell how far you are away VIA terrain because there is none. Underwater animals such as sharks seem to have an ungodly amount of aggro range. These damn evil creatures seem to be able to aggro you like 800 miles away in every MMO. Now lets give these sharks and underwater creatures that swim faster than you (smart AI, the AI that pantheon is seeking to make) where the AI may run from fights..... Good luck Catching your kills guys! its swimming 10x faster than you!
Now you have the aspect of trying to form an entire group together that wants to go to an "underwater level". Good luck with that!. A lot of players I have ran into, (insert word here) hate underwater worlds. Sure it just might be the people I play with, but that is still undeniably people from the player base. Even in this forum thread there is still only a little amount of players that say they "LOVE" underwater worlds. Most of us from which I have read, are like... underwater worlds are MEH. Ill do it if I have to, type of feeling I get from it.
Now lets get back to the topic of trying to make a better underwater level with some DO's and DON'TS
Don't make underwater levels the entire zone? Because we all hate that! (do we not?) (Everquest we looking at you!)
If there is an Underwater level, make like a cave system where air has been trapped and you are able to get out of the water and explore the cave.
Do not make manditory questlines that force players into underwater levels... Ill pass that on.. Thanks!.
IF you are going to have players go into the water for manditory questlines, put them into easy accessibly spots? or like what they did in EQ2 for the Lavithian raid (non instanced of course)...
So that was my 2cp, Someone is probably going to argue with this.. Sure that is fine. But to say something is completely irrelevant is an entire other story. Do not just shut it down, come up with something to back your statements up, and try to make a suggestions that may make a better compelling agruement or debate, or how to fix somethings.
Pyye said:I wanted to know what you all think? Should there be lots of under water places to explore? Lots of lakes to cross or submerge to the bottom to discover hidden places? What is some of your creative input here? Stick to the subject of water....
I was going to say something snarky like "it should impact all the parts of the world covered by it"..but I won't.
I had a love-hate relationship with Kedge Keep. I loved it because it was different, different than any other zone for quite some time. Everthing about Kedge required a different approach..and that was great. What I hated about Kedge was it was clearly an abandonded concept. Verant/Sony tried to handle underwater content, realized it wasn't as easy to code and had lots of problems so there was no further work done on underwater programming yet they still felt the need to shove a ton of quest items into that zone just to %&#$ with people.
Phinny, that jackhole, didn't need to have that many different class epic drops in his loot table. So watching developers shove new content back into underused and horribly buggy zones just to make people who never even heard of the place go "where the hell is Kedge?" then suffer through that zone was just plain mean.
So, VR developers, if you cannot get the coding for underwater combat right, don't just shove it an underwater zone to justify the work put forth on the effort. Leave it on the table until you get it all worked out THEN release it with an expansion.
Back to the OP and water. I think area that can be explored are pretty cool. Even if they are a passthrough to an underground area or dungeon. The trick is how to get there without turning into fish bait.
Underwarter fighting was always a bit off but it does add a dynamic that will change the way one does things. That puts the challenge back into the game. I do agree VR needs to look at this carefully. It can go south really fast as far as our perception and reaction goes.
A sunckin city wher you have to get to a temple to retrieve the crown of a fallen king. Its under water, shark infested, and haunted. LOL I have to much fun with this stff.
Good post Pyye!
Ox
Zahlhedren said:Loved Kedge Keep, really dissapointed that Vanguard oceans were desolate.
Kedge was one of the funnest experiences as an Enchanter having to cast EB on folks to stay alive, getting lost. CR's. Bring it on
I remember Kedge Keep as well. :) I do remember that there were ideas at one point in Vanguard ..to have ocean behemoths to fight when you were at sea...one in particular was mentioned The Kraken. I would love to see battles at sea, and sea monsters, not just in underwater caves..but attacking underwater cities...raids basically. With the Dark Myr, having several classes such as enchanters that can mez you and make you attack your team. :) But then again..that might be more a pvp idea...unless the underwater denizens were npcs.
Cana