Sevens said:We are not AFRAID (bad choice of words on your part but whatever) of things that were not in clasic Everquest...we are worried about to many hand holding dumbing down ideas being put into what many of us consider our last shot at a truely old school MMO. We have seen this happen to many times before, a great new game appears on the horizon but convinence features keep being added until it becomes just MMO clone 157.... Yes we want innovation, but honestly you really think a mentoring system is innovative? Just about every game out there has a system like that and they are all pretty much broken. This is a discussion forum, where people DISCUSS topics that they are worried about. The simple fact that we are willing to discuss it is a good sign, I know if things get to bad on the convinence front I wont keep discussing it, I will simply stop following the game. Its VRI's game and they can make it however they want, but they said they wanted community input and I hope to all the gods in the pantheon they listen.
Uhm yeah, I am no native english speaker and I might make a lot of "bad choices" in wording. However, I guess you were able to understand my intentions well enough.
And to the innovation thought, yes, at some time in game history, there was a "first" in mentoring. Sure Brad and his team will know how to implement and not implement it with all the good and bad examples out there.
The thing is, of course people are discussing here. It's just that some, not all, seem to constantly knee-jerk down everything what wasn't in Everquest. Like in the title, a thing what wasn't in Everquest must be a baad thing, it must be something what dumbs the game down. It must be "WoW-ish". It must be something that waters the game down. Suddenly, "hopes go up in flames".
A lot of you did not even experienced first hand how Vanguard did the mentoring thing. Just because the idea is there, you all just assume it must be WoW-ish, a hope-destroying detriment to all what is old-school and social and everything. Sometimes this "discussion" ist just this: it wasn't in Everquest. Ergo, it is not needed here. But in that there is no reasoning, there is no discussion. That is only a thumbscrew. You don't thumbscrew artists (the exception proves the rule), you see art and like it or not. But to like something, you should at least experience it first and see how it is done. You didn't even set one foot in the game yet! But no, the sky is already falling!
If something is in game and you clearly see how it is abused, exploited, watering down gaming experience, then by all means, report it and bring it to attention.
Edit, and Seven, with all due respect, but in regards to your picking on Liam, you are no forum saint either and very capable of belittling people when they don't share your opinion.
I've never used the Caravan system but, as I understand it, and the parallels to the proposed Alt-switching-something-or-other, I see a possible dumbind-down exploit possible.
Part of the experience of doing something is actually doing it, including getting there. If I am doing an class-type quest on my lower-level Wizard, I could play my higher level toon in a group, get to the drop, the "caravan" my Wizard in, bytpassing all the content that actually led up to the quest?!? Sounds terrible to me.
It also sounds extremely anti-social: instead of actually having other players with needed classes in a group, we can just use our alts when needed (trap disarm, unlock door, etc)? That also trivializes content.
Let me be clear: I don't have enough details to even remotely formulate an educated opinion and the reason I am here is because I trust the VR vision and what Pantheon stands for. I don't believe they will do something that goes against all that. The way this has been discussed, however, does concern me a little.
Duffy said:Sevens said:We are not AFRAID (bad choice of words on your part but whatever) of things that were not in clasic Everquest...we are worried about to many hand holding dumbing down ideas being put into what many of us consider our last shot at a truely old school MMO. We have seen this happen to many times before, a great new game appears on the horizon but convinence features keep being added until it becomes just MMO clone 157.... Yes we want innovation, but honestly you really think a mentoring system is innovative? Just about every game out there has a system like that and they are all pretty much broken. This is a discussion forum, where people DISCUSS topics that they are worried about. The simple fact that we are willing to discuss it is a good sign, I know if things get to bad on the convinence front I wont keep discussing it, I will simply stop following the game. Its VRI's game and they can make it however they want, but they said they wanted community input and I hope to all the gods in the pantheon they listen.
Uhm yeah, I am no native english speaker and I might make a lot of "bad choices" in wording. However, I guess you were able to understand my intentions well enough.
And to the innovation thought, yes, at some time in game history, there was a "first" in mentoring. Sure Brad and his team will know how to implement and not implement it with all the good and bad examples out there.
The thing is, of course people are discussing here. It's just that some, not all, seem to constantly knee-jerk down everything what wasn't in Everquest. Like in the title, a thing what wasn't in Everquest must be a baad thing, it must be something what dumbs the game down. It must be "WoW-ish". It must be something that waters the game down. Suddenly, "hopes go up in flames".
A lot of you did not even experienced first hand how Vanguard did the mentoring thing. Just because the idea is there, you all just assume it must be WoW-ish, a hope-destroying detriment to all what is old-school and social and everything. Sometimes this "discussion" ist just this: it wasn't in Everquest. Ergo, it is not needed here. But in that there is no reasoning, there is no discussion. That is only a thumbscrew. You don't thumbscrew artists (the exception proves the rule), you see art and like it or not. But to like something, you should at least experience it first and see how it is done. You didn't even set one foot in the game yet! But no, the sky is already falling!
If something is in game and you clearly see how it is abused, exploited, watering down gaming experience, then by all means, report it and bring it to attention.
Edit, and Seven, with all due respect, but in regards to your picking on Liam, you are no forum saint either and very capable of belittling people when they don't share your opinion.
Balderdash.
The majority of the posts I see on these forums are not folks outright demanding a feature not be added into the game. Rather, they are *discussions* about the pros and cons of that feature. They are discussions on how a particular feature from other MMO's could be implemented in Pantheon in such a way that it wouldn't mirror the hand holding done in previous titles. That is the definition of innovation.
Again. Innovation is the improvement of an already existing idea. That's what most of us want, I think. Improvements of ideas done in such a way that they fit the core tenets (as far as we understand those tenets) of Pantheon. We aren't trying to stifle innovation as much as we're attempting, as best we can, to give a voice to how we as the paying customers would like the direction of these innovations to go.
And if we use EQ as the measuring stick for these discussions ..why not? If there was something that gave us joy, and nothing since then has been able to replicate that feeling, it only makes sense that the originator of that feeling be used to measure all future endeavors. Frankly, to do otherwise seems silly. I see others here use their own personal iterations of EQ as well, whether it be Vanguard of even Final Fantasy 11. But just because Everquest vets are the majority here, we're worse in our opinions than others?
-------------
Topic at hand: I don't see a huge problem with the caravan system. Frankly, I don't think I used it once in Vanguard, and I played VG for quite a long time. I wouldn't mind seeing it in Pantheon, however I would like some limitations on it. Limitations already expressed by the folk here. Innovative folks.
When I think of how the caravan idea might be used, I think of it as more of a limited Auto-Follow feature that also works when you're logged off. It doesn't last forever. It's enough so that you can log off for an hour or two, log back in, and still be with your friends. I don't see a huge problem with that. Anything longer than that defeats exploration.
-Tralyan
I used the Caravan system in Vanguard from 20-50. I found a great group of like minded players from my guild to group with each night. Once in awhile we would spend half the night moving to a different area, and some of those nights one of us wouldn't be around or would happen to log online an hour later for example and could easily catch up to the rest of the party via the Caravan option. I'm pretty sure you couldn't use the system very often and it had it's limits. I don't recall anyone ever abusing the system, and never heard of any problems with it. Most people never even used the sytem to be honest, but that probably came from the lack of players.
Rallyd said:Without limitations, these systems can be extremely abused, me and my friends would never have the need to invite anyone else to our group or guild, we would work strictly off alts and people already inside our structure. I know people don't like the word force, but I really think it is necessary to force people to meet new people, and to need other people, otherwise as human nature entails, we won't.
This. I'm concerned - I don't want groups of players to become isolated islands.
It could have a negative impact on the social aspects of the game, which is, as we know, one of the core things of Pantheon vs other MMOs. I do get that the demographic of this game will include people will less time on their hands, but I'd prefer other tools than ones, which can potentionally split the community up. Want to game with your friends? - get a port, schedule a time and in-game place to play with them, join a pick up group - I wish I could come up with something more innovative, but there you go.
Have any of you guys ever actually used the carvan system in Vanguard ? It was actually really nice and worked well. You guys over react to everything that isnt EQ related it seems. Just calm down and remeber THIS IS NOT EQ OR IS IT EVER GOING TO BE. Just calm down they know what they are doing and it is a system that has been proven to work well. Not just some off the wall idea. TY Anasyn for a great example of how the system works.
This will work the same as logging in your alt and running them to the same location then camping them out.
It just removes the need to do the extra travel, its basically a imaginary autofollow for an alt you attach to the caravan.
Also seems to work liek DragonAge and can switch out characters at the campfires.
I dont usually do alts but I am more intrested in the progency system and what bonuses you get on the new character.
It feels like the divide on these types of issues is that the people that prefer to have all in game systems to be built to be strictly hardcore, much like EQ at launch, are the Vocal majority on these forums. Based on a few of the recent thread it looks like some of the people that loved EQ, but would prefer some of the more modern conveniences (that’s not a bad word, I promise) be included in Pantheon, i.e. mentoring, and caravans, are starting become more vocal.
I fall in the camp that would like to see the new systems Brad and Co. are talking about be implemented. I feel it necessary that I at least make my opinion known in hopes to try and represent the true player base. I’m sure there are a ton of people lurking and reading, but not participating so it’s hard to know how the true majority really feels. All and all we’re all on two sides of the same coin, we all loved the old school tenets of the older games, it’s just a matter of to what degree.
If those of us here did not want a social game where grouping is a big part of the experience, well, we would not be spending our hard earned cash to gain access to post on these forums. I absolutely believe that one of the biggest things this community is unified on is wanting Pantheon to be a no handholding, no quest hub grinding, group based MMORPG, that is hard, but rewarding. It’s just varying shades of grey to land on what we collectively feel like will get us to that point.
Mentoring and caravans, if done in a way that does not trivialize content, would be a boon to me and the group of people I typically game with. When I’m not running with that group, I typically go out and find a group to run with, in which case I don’t see these features being a hindrance to that. They would simply make the experience with my long term group of friends more streamlined and less grindy and clunky. In another game going that route may be a slippery slope, but with the VR dev team I don’t think we have to worry about that.
Anistosoles said:And just to be clear, I don't think you can do this even in WoW, but I know how most here dislike that game, so.......
So..... you made an inflammatory title.
To some posters here:
Honestly all the negativity on these forums is sad - this used to be a much more positive community, working together to make a better game. I expected better from this crowd and I post on MMORPG lol! Before you post, think of how it can be more constructive and less critical. Thank you.
I think the main concern around the caravan is what Brad said is the implementation of it not the idea.
If the caravan dosent allow for some insta-travel mechanism it would be ok in my mind.
I haven't used the Vanguard carvan system so I dont know how it worked. I'll give it a shot in testing tho and give my feedback.
Amsai said: @Raidan You are right and Ill try and tone it back a notch. But in all fairness it does seem to non EQ folks that we are besieged by EQ vets. I could name about 15 topics that have come up in the last year or so off the top of my head that got instantly shot down by EQ vets. So it does make it easy for me and others to see this as "if its not EQ its crap" even if that wasnt intended. Afterall I dont expect this to be a clone of XI but Im still here. Unlike comments I see from EQ folks that imply ultimatums of if such and such isnt how I want it Im leaving. Hell I might not agree with a lot of dev decisions but I will for sure be playing it til mid level after launch just to make sure I dont like it. But Ill at least find out first. If any of you guys whatever game you loved think you are gonna like everything about this game you are wrong. This game is being made for US not YOU (the individual) This last bit was nt directed at you Raidan.
I will agree with this. I am an EQ player and I love some of the ideas that EQ did but I also hate hate hate others. But there have been a lot of topics that seem like they went down just as Amsai said with the ultimatums. There has been far to much screaming that a certain feature is dumbing down gameplay or making it to easy without no concrete plans drawn out simply because some other game did something like it or it wasnt in EQ or UO it has to be shot down. In the end Pantheon needs to stick to the core tenets but not alienate millions for the sake of a few thousand looking for nostalgia.
In the end there will be features people hate that others love. It is on the player base to try each feature and let the devs know how it is working in game. Screaming if they do this I wont play isnt helping the game staying and testing and trusting VRI to listen to the players will help the game.
Duffy said:Sevens said:We are not AFRAID (bad choice of words on your part but whatever) of things that were not in clasic Everquest...we are worried about to many hand holding dumbing down ideas being put into what many of us consider our last shot at a truely old school MMO. We have seen this happen to many times before, a great new game appears on the horizon but convinence features keep being added until it becomes just MMO clone 157.... Yes we want innovation, but honestly you really think a mentoring system is innovative? Just about every game out there has a system like that and they are all pretty much broken. This is a discussion forum, where people DISCUSS topics that they are worried about. The simple fact that we are willing to discuss it is a good sign, I know if things get to bad on the convinence front I wont keep discussing it, I will simply stop following the game. Its VRI's game and they can make it however they want, but they said they wanted community input and I hope to all the gods in the pantheon they listen.
Uhm yeah, I am no native english speaker and I might make a lot of "bad choices" in wording. However, I guess you were able to understand my intentions well enough.
And to the innovation thought, yes, at some time in game history, there was a "first" in mentoring. Sure Brad and his team will know how to implement and not implement it with all the good and bad examples out there.
The thing is, of course people are discussing here. It's just that some, not all, seem to constantly knee-jerk down everything what wasn't in Everquest. Like in the title, a thing what wasn't in Everquest must be a baad thing, it must be something what dumbs the game down. It must be "WoW-ish". It must be something that waters the game down. Suddenly, "hopes go up in flames".
A lot of you did not even experienced first hand how Vanguard did the mentoring thing. Just because the idea is there, you all just assume it must be WoW-ish, a hope-destroying detriment to all what is old-school and social and everything. Sometimes this "discussion" ist just this: it wasn't in Everquest. Ergo, it is not needed here. But in that there is no reasoning, there is no discussion. That is only a thumbscrew. You don't thumbscrew artists (the exception proves the rule), you see art and like it or not. But to like something, you should at least experience it first and see how it is done. You didn't even set one foot in the game yet! But no, the sky is already falling!
If something is in game and you clearly see how it is abused, exploited, watering down gaming experience, then by all means, report it and bring it to attention.
Edit, and Seven, with all due respect, but in regards to your picking on Liam, you are no forum saint either and very capable of belittling people when they don't share your opinion.
I was not aware you werent a native english speaker so I can understand the choice of the word, I was thinking you were using it as an insult to those opposed to what ever this topic is about...good to know that is not the case. You are correct in saying that once mentoring was innovative, that is not the case nowdays...I am not against it because it is WoWish (I never played the game so wouldnt know) I am against it because I have seen it used in other games and it was a broken system and I also feel it goes against the whole "Were not making a game but a world" philosophy that has been touted by VRI. Colored mana ia innovative, and I am excited to see how it can work...the Progeny system is innovative and I am excited to see how it works out. The things I argue against are the things that I feel do not mesh with what we were promised, well that and PVP which I hate with a passion :P
As far as being a forum saint, youre correct I am not. I was not trying to pick on Liam...he made a very vile post and I just pointed out that for Liam that is par for the course. Now with that being said I have never once attacked a poster or called them names....I have strongly argued against certain ideas being tossed about and yes I do sometimes get a bit loud in my arguments and for that I do apolagize if I have made any feel belittled. I honestly do respect others opinions and would never want to shout anyone down for voicing them...they are doing nothing more than I and arguing for what they want to see in a game. Except for PvP :P
Edit: Sorry for the derail all...some how I got my threads mixed up and was thinking this was the one talking about Mentoring and not Caravans.
Sevens said:Duffy said:Sevens said:We are not AFRAID (bad choice of words on your part but whatever) of things that were not in clasic Everquest...we are worried about to many hand holding dumbing down ideas being put into what many of us consider our last shot at a truely old school MMO. We have seen this happen to many times before, a great new game appears on the horizon but convinence features keep being added until it becomes just MMO clone 157.... Yes we want innovation, but honestly you really think a mentoring system is innovative? Just about every game out there has a system like that and they are all pretty much broken. This is a discussion forum, where people DISCUSS topics that they are worried about. The simple fact that we are willing to discuss it is a good sign, I know if things get to bad on the convinence front I wont keep discussing it, I will simply stop following the game. Its VRI's game and they can make it however they want, but they said they wanted community input and I hope to all the gods in the pantheon they listen.
Uhm yeah, I am no native english speaker and I might make a lot of "bad choices" in wording. However, I guess you were able to understand my intentions well enough.
And to the innovation thought, yes, at some time in game history, there was a "first" in mentoring. Sure Brad and his team will know how to implement and not implement it with all the good and bad examples out there.
The thing is, of course people are discussing here. It's just that some, not all, seem to constantly knee-jerk down everything what wasn't in Everquest. Like in the title, a thing what wasn't in Everquest must be a baad thing, it must be something what dumbs the game down. It must be "WoW-ish". It must be something that waters the game down. Suddenly, "hopes go up in flames".
A lot of you did not even experienced first hand how Vanguard did the mentoring thing. Just because the idea is there, you all just assume it must be WoW-ish, a hope-destroying detriment to all what is old-school and social and everything. Sometimes this "discussion" ist just this: it wasn't in Everquest. Ergo, it is not needed here. But in that there is no reasoning, there is no discussion. That is only a thumbscrew. You don't thumbscrew artists (the exception proves the rule), you see art and like it or not. But to like something, you should at least experience it first and see how it is done. You didn't even set one foot in the game yet! But no, the sky is already falling!
If something is in game and you clearly see how it is abused, exploited, watering down gaming experience, then by all means, report it and bring it to attention.
Edit, and Seven, with all due respect, but in regards to your picking on Liam, you are no forum saint either and very capable of belittling people when they don't share your opinion.
I was not aware you werent a native english speaker so I can understand the choice of the word, I was thinking you were using it as an insult to those opposed to what ever this topic is about...good to know that is not the case. You are correct in saying that once mentoring was innovative, that is not the case nowdays...I am not against it because it is WoWish (I never played the game so wouldnt know) I am against it because I have seen it used in other games and it was a broken system and I also feel it goes against the whole "Were not making a game but a world" philosophy that has been touted by VRI. Colored mana ia innovative, and I am excited to see how it can work...the Progeny system is innovative and I am excited to see how it works out. The things I argue against are the things that I feel do not mesh with what we were promised, well that and PVP which I hate with a passion :P
As far as being a forum saint, youre correct I am not. I was not trying to pick on Liam...he made a very vile post and I just pointed out that for Liam that is par for the course. Now with that being said I have never once attacked a poster or called them names....I have strongly argued against certain ideas being tossed about and yes I do sometimes get a bit loud in my arguments and for that I do apolagize if I have made any feel belittled. I honestly do respect others opinions and would never want to shout anyone down for voicing them...they are doing nothing more than I and arguing for what they want to see in a game. Except for PvP :P
Like I said just because its been done in other games and it was broken doesnt mean it needs to be shotdown and not used. Its up to us and the Devs to look at any and all systems and try to make them something that would make Pantheon amazing. GO PVP
Kalgore said:Sevens said:Duffy said:Sevens said:We are not AFRAID (bad choice of words on your part but whatever) of things that were not in clasic Everquest...we are worried about to many hand holding dumbing down ideas being put into what many of us consider our last shot at a truely old school MMO. We have seen this happen to many times before, a great new game appears on the horizon but convinence features keep being added until it becomes just MMO clone 157.... Yes we want innovation, but honestly you really think a mentoring system is innovative? Just about every game out there has a system like that and they are all pretty much broken. This is a discussion forum, where people DISCUSS topics that they are worried about. The simple fact that we are willing to discuss it is a good sign, I know if things get to bad on the convinence front I wont keep discussing it, I will simply stop following the game. Its VRI's game and they can make it however they want, but they said they wanted community input and I hope to all the gods in the pantheon they listen.
Uhm yeah, I am no native english speaker and I might make a lot of "bad choices" in wording. However, I guess you were able to understand my intentions well enough.
And to the innovation thought, yes, at some time in game history, there was a "first" in mentoring. Sure Brad and his team will know how to implement and not implement it with all the good and bad examples out there.
The thing is, of course people are discussing here. It's just that some, not all, seem to constantly knee-jerk down everything what wasn't in Everquest. Like in the title, a thing what wasn't in Everquest must be a baad thing, it must be something what dumbs the game down. It must be "WoW-ish". It must be something that waters the game down. Suddenly, "hopes go up in flames".
A lot of you did not even experienced first hand how Vanguard did the mentoring thing. Just because the idea is there, you all just assume it must be WoW-ish, a hope-destroying detriment to all what is old-school and social and everything. Sometimes this "discussion" ist just this: it wasn't in Everquest. Ergo, it is not needed here. But in that there is no reasoning, there is no discussion. That is only a thumbscrew. You don't thumbscrew artists (the exception proves the rule), you see art and like it or not. But to like something, you should at least experience it first and see how it is done. You didn't even set one foot in the game yet! But no, the sky is already falling!
If something is in game and you clearly see how it is abused, exploited, watering down gaming experience, then by all means, report it and bring it to attention.
Edit, and Seven, with all due respect, but in regards to your picking on Liam, you are no forum saint either and very capable of belittling people when they don't share your opinion.
I was not aware you werent a native english speaker so I can understand the choice of the word, I was thinking you were using it as an insult to those opposed to what ever this topic is about...good to know that is not the case. You are correct in saying that once mentoring was innovative, that is not the case nowdays...I am not against it because it is WoWish (I never played the game so wouldnt know) I am against it because I have seen it used in other games and it was a broken system and I also feel it goes against the whole "Were not making a game but a world" philosophy that has been touted by VRI. Colored mana ia innovative, and I am excited to see how it can work...the Progeny system is innovative and I am excited to see how it works out. The things I argue against are the things that I feel do not mesh with what we were promised, well that and PVP which I hate with a passion :P
As far as being a forum saint, youre correct I am not. I was not trying to pick on Liam...he made a very vile post and I just pointed out that for Liam that is par for the course. Now with that being said I have never once attacked a poster or called them names....I have strongly argued against certain ideas being tossed about and yes I do sometimes get a bit loud in my arguments and for that I do apolagize if I have made any feel belittled. I honestly do respect others opinions and would never want to shout anyone down for voicing them...they are doing nothing more than I and arguing for what they want to see in a game. Except for PvP :P
Like I said just because its been done in other games and it was broken doesnt mean it needs to be shotdown and not used. Its up to us and the Devs to look at any and all systems and try to make them something that would make Pantheon amazing. GO PVP
I agree that just because it was broken in one game doesnt mean it has to be, but that was only part of my argument, the other part being that it doesnt mesh with the whole its a world not a game philosophy.
Sevens said:Kalgore said:Sevens said:Duffy said:Sevens said:We are not AFRAID (bad choice of words on your part but whatever) of things that were not in clasic Everquest...we are worried about to many hand holding dumbing down ideas being put into what many of us consider our last shot at a truely old school MMO. We have seen this happen to many times before, a great new game appears on the horizon but convinence features keep being added until it becomes just MMO clone 157.... Yes we want innovation, but honestly you really think a mentoring system is innovative? Just about every game out there has a system like that and they are all pretty much broken. This is a discussion forum, where people DISCUSS topics that they are worried about. The simple fact that we are willing to discuss it is a good sign, I know if things get to bad on the convinence front I wont keep discussing it, I will simply stop following the game. Its VRI's game and they can make it however they want, but they said they wanted community input and I hope to all the gods in the pantheon they listen.
Uhm yeah, I am no native english speaker and I might make a lot of "bad choices" in wording. However, I guess you were able to understand my intentions well enough.
And to the innovation thought, yes, at some time in game history, there was a "first" in mentoring. Sure Brad and his team will know how to implement and not implement it with all the good and bad examples out there.
The thing is, of course people are discussing here. It's just that some, not all, seem to constantly knee-jerk down everything what wasn't in Everquest. Like in the title, a thing what wasn't in Everquest must be a baad thing, it must be something what dumbs the game down. It must be "WoW-ish". It must be something that waters the game down. Suddenly, "hopes go up in flames".
A lot of you did not even experienced first hand how Vanguard did the mentoring thing. Just because the idea is there, you all just assume it must be WoW-ish, a hope-destroying detriment to all what is old-school and social and everything. Sometimes this "discussion" ist just this: it wasn't in Everquest. Ergo, it is not needed here. But in that there is no reasoning, there is no discussion. That is only a thumbscrew. You don't thumbscrew artists (the exception proves the rule), you see art and like it or not. But to like something, you should at least experience it first and see how it is done. You didn't even set one foot in the game yet! But no, the sky is already falling!
If something is in game and you clearly see how it is abused, exploited, watering down gaming experience, then by all means, report it and bring it to attention.
Edit, and Seven, with all due respect, but in regards to your picking on Liam, you are no forum saint either and very capable of belittling people when they don't share your opinion.
I was not aware you werent a native english speaker so I can understand the choice of the word, I was thinking you were using it as an insult to those opposed to what ever this topic is about...good to know that is not the case. You are correct in saying that once mentoring was innovative, that is not the case nowdays...I am not against it because it is WoWish (I never played the game so wouldnt know) I am against it because I have seen it used in other games and it was a broken system and I also feel it goes against the whole "Were not making a game but a world" philosophy that has been touted by VRI. Colored mana ia innovative, and I am excited to see how it can work...the Progeny system is innovative and I am excited to see how it works out. The things I argue against are the things that I feel do not mesh with what we were promised, well that and PVP which I hate with a passion :P
As far as being a forum saint, youre correct I am not. I was not trying to pick on Liam...he made a very vile post and I just pointed out that for Liam that is par for the course. Now with that being said I have never once attacked a poster or called them names....I have strongly argued against certain ideas being tossed about and yes I do sometimes get a bit loud in my arguments and for that I do apolagize if I have made any feel belittled. I honestly do respect others opinions and would never want to shout anyone down for voicing them...they are doing nothing more than I and arguing for what they want to see in a game. Except for PvP :P
Like I said just because its been done in other games and it was broken doesnt mean it needs to be shotdown and not used. Its up to us and the Devs to look at any and all systems and try to make them something that would make Pantheon amazing. GO PVP
I agree that just because it was broken in one game doesnt mean it has to be, but that was only part of my argument, the other part being that it doesnt mesh with the whole its a world not a game philosophy.
See I feel it is to soon to tell if it will mesh with the world we dont even know how it might be done. The only thing we can do is discuss what we do not want such a system to do. And that would be instant transport of an alt to your group just because of the caravan system.
Have to agree that it is at odds with what we've come to expect in Pantheon. I understand the need for some convenience mechanics, I really do. However, I'm not totally convinced by some of the reasoning put forth by Brad on the matter. Specifically, that people will, "assume a gameplay style that they are accustomed to", and when it fails "become frustrated and leave." Perhaps some of those systems are necessary, but I don't think that would be the reason for them.
Based on my experiences, people, especially MMORPG players, will perservere if for no other reason than personal pride, until they've reached some milestone in the game. Usually, that is max level ("end game"), but in the case of Pantheon, it will happen much earlier as they meet people and experience rewarding multiplayer content. That's where I believe most people will make the decision to stay or go.
More importantly, I think its far more likely that most people will come in already knowing what to expect, and if they decide for whatever reason they don't like it, they would not play it regardless of any mechanic that makes things a little easier.
Beyond that, you are leveraging making things a little easier against the sense of accomplishment derived from a more challenging early game. The people who will ultimately want to play Pantheon in the long term are going to be those people who want to feel like they succeeded through their own devices rather than those set up to accomodate them. Lulling them into a false sense of security might be better for getting them to buy the game, but it won't likely keep them subscribed.
Now, just because I don't agree with that one point that Brad made, doesn't mean I dismiss all arguments. I think the eventual lack of players in the early game is a legitimate reason to create some sort of system that encourages players to go back and help new players. That is why I proposed what I did on the matchmaking thread.
Last, shame on some of you for attempting to villify members of this community because they have a different opinion than you or because they disagree with something a developer said. There is no shortage of reasoning being offered here, so just stop attempting to make this seem like some sort of baseless gripe by former EQ players.
Dullahan said:Have to agree that it is at odds with what we've come to expect in Pantheon. I understand the need for some convenience mechanics, I really do. However, I'm not totally convinced by some of the reasoning put forth by Brad on the matter. Specifically, that people will, "assume a gameplay style that they are accustomed to", and when it fails "become frustrated and leave." Perhaps some of those systems are necessary, but I don't think that would be the reason for them.
Based on my experiences, people, especially MMORPG players, will perservere if for no other reason than personal pride, until they've reached some milestone in the game. Usually, that is max level ("end game"), but in the case of Pantheon, it will happen much earlier as they meet people and experience rewarding multiplayer content. That's where I believe most people will make the decision to stay or go.
More importantly, I think its far more likely that most people will come in already knowing what to expect, and if they decide for whatever reason they don't like it, they would not play it regardless of any mechanic that makes things a little easier.
Beyond that, you are leveraging making things a little easier against the sense of accomplishment derived from a more challenging early game. The people who will ultimately want to play Pantheon in the long term are going to be those people who want to feel like they succeeded through their own devices rather than those set up to accomodate them. Lulling them into a false sense of security might be better for getting them to buy the game, but it won't likely keep them subscribed.
Now, just because I don't agree with that one point that Brad made, doesn't mean I dismiss all arguments. I think the eventual lack of players in the early game is a legitimate reason to create some sort of system that encourages players to go back and help new players. That is why I proposed what I did on the matchmaking thread.
I agree with this and you touched on what I've been thinking. I don't want VR to underestimate the players ability and desire to overcome the challenges the game presents. They definitely weren't too difficult in EQ or VG. However, it's a tricky situation that VR is in. It's got to be interesting enough for those of us that have been around a while and also inviting for someone who has never played before. I don't think I really understand the mind set of a MMO player who didn't come up playing some of the older MMO's so it's difficult for me to say how much of a challenge they are up for when coming into a new game. VR needs (we all need!) the game to have a large enough population for it to be viable. So, I can understand their reasoning to want to err on the side of caution in order to hook some newer players who might be apt to leave and not pay a subscription otherwise. But... If they get hooked and you have slowly introduced that challenge with out discouraging them then you have a new citizen of Terminus for the long haul.
Everything that has been proposed has also included the caveat that it would be limited use and/or pulled from the game if it doesn't work in beta. Sounds reasonable. Couple that with the fact that servers with different rule sets have also been proposed and I have faith that there will be a place to play that suits all of us. *fingers crossed* Also! For sure my favorite MMO's have been Brad McQuaid designed games, at this point, I have no reason to think this one will be any different. Reread the tenets and FAQ if needed, rewatch the prealpha footage. :) Yes, I have a couple concerns about some of the stuff proposed but they are small and I'm confident it'll get worked out. I still believe PRF is going to be great! Trust in the Brad. :)
Dullahan said:Last, shame on some of you for attempting to villify members of this community because they have a different opinion than you or because they disagree with something a developer said. There is no shortage of reasoning being offered here, so just stop attempting to make this seem like some sort of baseless gripe by former EQ players.
Ain't that the truth!
Xonth said: So say I have 3 level 45 characters. A warrior, a wizard, and a cleric. I use my wizard to port over to the zone i want. Swap out for my warrior at the zone line, get a group and if anyone else in my group dies its no problem because i can swap over to my cleric and rez everyone back, buff them up and swap back to my warrior. Am I imagining this wrong?
You can do that in any number of games cartavan system or not,
Malsirian said:Not in any game I've played. Which ones did you find that to be the case? A newer one?
theoretically, if your group died you could log, get on your healer, rez everyone, and log back on your other character (though it probably isnt worth the hassle) - you would still have to travel assuming you didnt log off the healer in the same locale the group died at.
ive never played an mmo where you log out on your 'wizard' at a locked door in the depths of a dungeon, re-log on your rogue (who appeaers at the same location the wizard camped), open the door, then re-re-log to the wizard to continue on.
i hate it, tbh.
In EQ2 you could have a raid wipe deep ina dungeon and instead of reclearing trash you zone in your parked healer call of tinker to the raid rez them and camp. You could also do it in eq1 have a cleric alt log in every now and then run to the location of the raid camp and then keep pulling. It was time consuming but better then the entire raid having to corpse run.