I totally agree that the over-the-head quest icons (and for that matter quest pointers and whatnot) are crappy for immersion and trivialise content to a good degree, but I'm wondering if the alternative might lead to some tediousness and the temptation to just visit a Pantheon Wiki and have the same effect as the quest helpers.
I know this will bring out the Intractables and may get me a forum warrior assault, but I'm going to plough on. I don't think VR have expanded on things beyond the FAQ ("If you want to find out if an NPC has a quest all you have to do is… talk to him. We will NOT be utilizing the ‘over the head icon’ approach. We want you investigate your surroundings and gather information and interacting with NPCs is a big part of that") if I've missed something please let me know! ;)
I'm going to paint a scenario and hope people are open-minded and don't take it as a suggestion that I know the perfect way to do things. I'm just attempting to prompt discussion.
So, you get to a small town. There's shops and homes and other buildings. There's high roads and small streets and dark alleys. You spend several hours, possibly days real time wandering every inch of cobblestone and pushing your way into every single building to seek out all the possibly interesting NPCs then spend more hours and days to /hail them and respond to their comments in every which way you can think of in order to possibly draw out who may lead to opportunity for heroic adventure?
Is that immersive and fun? Is that bizarre and tedious? Is that somewhere in between?
Another scenario: -
You get to a small town. You head to the general store to resupply - you talk to the shop owner - they understand you are clearly looking for adventure and they have some shop/trade related tasks that might interest you. Great. They further suggest you head to the tavern, since taverns are well-know places the worlds over for attracting people with stories and rumours and could lead to greater adventure. The townsfolk know this as much as you do and have noticed there have been adventurers coming through town lately, so there is a noticeboard where they have posted some pleas for aid that you may be able to help with. You listen to some rumours and resolve to visit the areas in the town where they indicate there might be some action. You hear some interesting stories and decide to note down the basics of what you've heard with an eye to investigating at a later date. You trot off to adventure, knowing you will be back for more 'leads'.
So, I could go on, but already I've hinted at the concepts of a quest hub (Hah! VR said no quest hubs, idiot!) an adventurer's notice board (No! Such a tired trope! So lazy!) and a quest journal (No! Never! Quest Journals break MMORPGs!) and that's probably enough to get me in trouble already.
It's another one of those issues where the devs have said "We're going back to the 'old ways' for this issue" which is good, but I think could stand some discussion until the they detail things more. What do you think?
TLDR version: VR have said "No quest icons. Talk to NPCs". Great, but how would you want this to work?
One of the major changes is that quests will not/should not be the xp quests we have become accustomed to in WoW, Rift, etc. Quest will be something you do for your class, a peice of interesting gear, progress your characters story.
You won't log in, run to a quest giver, do the quest, turn in, and repeat. Quests should be multi-level adventures that take some planning, problem/riddle/puzzle solving and be something of merit and achievment.
In EQ, quests were not abundant, and not sought after as a form of xp gain. Aside from a few, that I prefer to label tasks (bring me 10 rat tails), quest took time to complete.
Quest should be "rumors" or "legends" told to you when you stumble upon them. It won't take long for the most important quests to be identified and found via Google searches, but they should still not just be advertised on a billboard.
Some indication that a NPC might have need of my services would be welcome. Especially if I already talked to everyone in town but some faction rating or something unlocked a quest from said NPC. I don't want a map marker or gaudy UI icon but if the NPC perhaps emotes as I walk by or something, that could be neat. Or flavor text as you walk by like “NPC looks worried”. That’s immersive and informational.
Yelta said:Some indication that a NPC might have need of my services would be welcome. Especially if I already talked to everyone in town but some faction rating or something unlocked a quest from said NPC. I don't want a map marker or gaudy UI icon but if the NPC perhaps emotes as I walk by or something, that could be neat. Or flavor text as you walk by like “NPC looks worried”. That’s immersive and informational.
yes, something like this would be cool.
Walking through town and an NPC says "Psst, you there, Have you heard about.....?"
But it would need to be selective and not for just anything, otherwise you get to the point of ignoring it. Or maybe when you deal with a local merchant he makes mentions of something during the transaction, and guides you to who you should seek for more information.
Transparent methods are fine, just no questionmarks, highlights, or flashing icons. :)
Yelta said:Some indication that a NPC might have need of my services would be welcome. Especially if I already talked to everyone in town but some faction rating or something unlocked a quest from said NPC. I don't want a map marker or gaudy UI icon but if the NPC perhaps emotes as I walk by or something, that could be neat. Or flavor text as you walk by like “NPC looks worried”. That’s immersive and informational.
Yes that would address the concern of seeking out quests not being fun. I like it.
I just hope that Terminus has only a small handful of quests to do, but a TON of content to explore. Not to offend anyone, but I am so SICK of the "Go grab me 10 yak bull nuts" or "Escort my virgin daughter to the yuletide ball with her honor intact for a major reward" kinda crap. I don't care HOW they do the quests in VR, so long as there are WAY FEWER of them to do. Today's MMOs make me feel like I am being handed a honey-do list from the missus.
Anistosoles said:I just hope that Terminus has only a small handful of quests to do, but a TON of content to explore. Not to offend anyone, but I am so SICK of the "Go grab me 10 yak bull nuts" or "Escort my virgin daughter to the yuletide ball with her honor intact for a major reward" kinda crap. I don't care HOW they do the quests in VR, so long as there are WAY FEWER of them to do. Today's MMOs make me feel like I am being handed a honey-do list from the missus.
I agree - I don't like the pointless busy quests, but I do see a use for quests that point you toward content you might otherwise miss. All they really have to do is start you down the road, though, not drag you by the nose from monster to monster.
In my OP I'm not worried about missing one or two quests somewhere in the town because there are hoards of them, but I'm worried that there won't be many and I might miss them without visiting and interrogating every single NPC. I'd prefer something more organic.
I don't really have a strong opinion on the ? over NPC heads. I agree with Yelta that some way to identify a quest other than hailing every npcs in a town or relying on spoiler sites seems like a good idea though.
But I definitely agree with the idea of long and intricate quests. Things like the Visceral Dagger in Dalnirs is a good start where you don't feel like you are doing tasks for a reward as much as hunting down artificacts to re-assemble a weapon.
But the 1st grand quest that really captured my attention was Spirit of Garzikor. I spent so much time working on that quest, figuring out the next steps, begging friends to come help me, cursing the Dragon Necropolis step, etc. Was definitely very proud of finishing it.
From Kunark on, every expansion had quests like this to work on. Necro Skullcap, Coldain Shawl/Ring, Aid Grimmel, Secret of the Planes, Breakdown in Communications, etc. These were all so much better than the "epic quests". There were incremental rewards, it was not all about getting raid drops and mixed in plenty of solo work and group content as well, the rewards reflected the time/effort it required to complete them.
I really like the idea of Tavern/Bar Rumors that could either start of a quest or give slight hints about a NPC or Zone. If a Rumor within a Tavern/Bar could be random depending on time of day or what NPC’s wander into the Tavern/Bar, and perhaps the NPC doesn’t always discuss the rumor randomly but may require Plat/Gold depending on your in-town faction.
I think they have a great quest system already...You guys really should read up on it or watch the latest streaming video.
They come upon a fallen colum and get a message "this colum appears ancient" which prompts them to examine it....This is their quest system which they can use in cities, taverns, wilderness, dungeons.
Check it out, there are many forum post about it, its in the Live stream and they have even posted articles about in on MMORPG.com.
In Gw2 in the early days the NPC's would come to you. They did not have the round gold coin or dot over the head like they do now. I was wondering if that should be the route VR takes. Have the NPC's talk to you as you pass or get close. Have it with audio and text. That way we dont have the WOW type of game where you run into a village that makes the population look like a bunch of idiots with question marks over their heards. oops heads...
Just an idea of course any thoughts?
Ox
I like this idea and remember the fewer quests from EQ. I like that this idea could also be implemented into class specific events and faction related. I think that it could be cool when you enter a town and see a person huddled in the corner next to a broken cart or something like that you could decide to investigate and potentially lead to excitement or find it to be not worth your time and move on. This would make it more realistic and allow the player to become more immersed. I can tell you in the current MMOs that I play, I dont even read the quest text anymore because of them being so repetitive and offering nothing to my personal story. This could allow for some interesting and unique loot items as well.
I think there could also be some of these kinds of events as "side quests" that get changed regularly and offer players to not have to keep repeting the same thing. For me, once I have an end game character and decide to make an alt, it is painful to run through the same quests that I just did. It suprises me how little the content changes, even after multiple expansions.