I'm very happy to see a MMO talking about actually bringing cooperative play back into multiplayer RPG's. One of my favorite parts of early MMO's working together with others and the reliance on each other to accomplish things we could not do on our own. I loved building groups and pulling.
I think the holy trinity is not enough, you should require tank, damage, healer crowd control and puller.
Anyone have any ideas to make group combat more interesting? I enjoyed skill chains in Final Fantasy 11, it was an interesting concept to encourage teamwork.
I feel combat should be complex enough to make grinding not a chore but make the journey to higher levels the enjoyment. Has much information come out on the combat system? Is it going to be auto-attack with skills? With that model it feels like MMO's become a rhythm game for most classes. I wonder if people have ideas to make it more than just rhythm.
Edit: This was meant for general discussion, opps.
I absolutely loved group combos in GW2. Definitely made for more interesting combat, and if you played in a regular group/guild, then picking certain skills and weapons became more important to the collective.
The GW2 system has several layers to it, and while I'm not sure PROTF would need to go to those lengths, I would be stoked to see something like this.
However it works there should be significant incentives to group with everyone.
For example, in EQ1 the group bonus was only meaningful if you add a sixth person and it wasn't enough to make a meaningful difference.
If you were a hybrid or utility class and a group of 5 already had someone similar, they had zero incentive to invite you to the group. You were redundant. This is exactly why groups got hard to find, people multiboxed and eventually drifted away from the game, making the population smaller and even harder to get groups. Add instancing and it was a bleeding wound.
OK, here is my solution:
Every group gets a bonus of XP (and coin and loot) if they have redundant classes. SO, if you have a group of Cleric, Warrior, Ranger, Chanter, Wizard.......you could invite a second cleric and get a bonus for doing so. That will make sure everyone is grabbed up by groups, and not just by the number of group members but by the makeup of the group. Without that type of incentive, that lonely cleric will go LFG all night long until they log off and play Candy Crush.
Normally a single group won't invite a second healer or second tank or second puller or second crowd control. The *ONLY* thing people really like redundancy on is DPS becuase it means faster kills. But everything else is unwanted redundancy - who wants two chanters in your group when you could get another wizard for DPS? Who wants a Paladin in your group when you already have a tank and a cleric?
Well we need to incentivize groups so there is a desire to have redundancy in groups so people ALWAYS want a full group and they wont have to simply split loot or have players sponge Xp.
Fix *THAT* problem and you will create a long-term sustainable group game.
We actually use the Quaternity system which we will elaborate more on as development progresses but you can find a bit more information on our FAQ page ;)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
I have gone ahead and moved this thread to General Pantheon, as it doesn't belong in News and Announcements, which is meant for VR staff only most of the time.
fazool said:However it works there should be significant incentives to group with everyone.
For example, in EQ1 the group bonus was only meaningful if you add a sixth person and it wasn't enough to make a meaningful difference.
The 6th person didn't affect experience for everyone else, group max EXP rate was attained with 5 people. So if you added a sixth person, it wasn't detrimental but a bonus in whatever extra they brought with them be it extra healing, utility, tanking, DPS, etc.
It was changed to that sometime in 2002. In 2001 and earlier the group bonus was maxed at 5 people, and a 6th just ate into the experience rate. This is why it was changed to essentially make it "just invite whomever as the sixth since they're going to be a bonus."
I actually remember reading the patch note the day of the change and used my Googlefu to make sure I was accurately remembering. ;-)
So, hopefully VR provides incentives for grouping kinda like that, make it so your EXP rate doesn't free-fall when you add people.
I tackle this in the opposite manner.. Why is it that we occasionally get non-full groups?
- Content being easy/ier, therefore "we don't need that last or extra person, or "stranger", even worse. "Let's do it together guys!"
- Fear of losing loot (by the division according to the number of group members, or by losing the dice roll for a specific item [two, three people wanting it, so let's cut the number down, invite less])
Does bonus XP solve any of the above?
No :)
What would is:
intelligent scaling (very tough to nail down, hence my saying intelligent, bloating is a different thing) in the case of content being/thought of as easier
A clever than the average MMO's loot system
Assuming we agree thus far, it can go various ways from here.
Aenra said:I tackle this in the opposite manner.. Why is it that we occasionally get non-full groups?
- Content being easy/ier, therefore "we don't need that last or extra person, or "stranger", even worse. "Let's do it together guys!"
- Fear of losing loot (by the division according to the number of group members, or by losing the dice roll for a specific item [two, three people wanting it, so let's cut the number down, invite less])
Does bonus XP solve any of the above?
No :)
What would is:
intelligent scaling (very tough to nail down, hence my saying intelligent, bloating is a different thing) in the case of content being/thought of as easier
A clever than the average MMO's loot system
Assuming we agree thus far, it can go various ways from here.
Intelligent loot scaling is a good idea - I was thinknig the same thing but didn't think it plausible. That would mean the opposite is true so you can get loot without regard for group size so its a disincentive.
Regarding loot, it wouldn't be hard for loot to drop 'intelligently,' at the expense of serverside CPU cycles and perhaps a bit more serverside RAM use, too.
Calculations could be done on keeping in memory what a character has on them and in the bank. It could be done individually, and for the whole group.
Odds of an item droping scales upward and downward depending on whom has what, making the odds of an item either a solo character or a group has or has not more likely to drop, or not drop.
And let's say everyone has everything, the odds of whatever dropping starts looking (and is) a lot more random instead of an increased liklihood of something dropping that someone doesn't already have.
Naturally, this might be prone to really piss off farmers and people who like to work the market. But, from a totally character-building perspective, it would be pretty awesome.
VR could still enable 'rare' items to be 'rare' in the DB and still make it just a bit more unlikely for something to drop, but as time goes along with people getting stuff but they don't have THAT particular item, the odds of it dropping does 'technically' increase. Get what I'm saying?
Whether this is a good idea or not, I'm not saying either way. Just an idea I had and wanted to put it out there.
I think rewarding full groups with loot would be nice for the full groups but it sure would be brutally disapointing for that duo or trio or somthing who have just managed to scrape through with some kill epic boss kill by the skin of their teeth only to find out they have a reduced chance of recieving the better qulity loot that was a possible drop.
I think giving bonus to loot is not particularly fair but giving xp bonus is a decent way to give incentive to players to fill out groups to max numbers and less of a blow than not getting "that" item! Unless your just talking about trash loot and cash, then that doesnt matter too much to those who are in less than full groups.
Hokanu said:I think rewarding full groups with loot would be nice for the full groups but it sure would be brutally disapointing for that duo or trio or somthing who have just managed to scrape through with some kill epic boss kill by the skin of their teeth only to find out they have a reduced chance of recieving the better qulity loot that was a possible drop.
I think giving bonus to loot is not particularly fair but giving xp bonus is a decent way to give incentive to players to fill out groups to max numbers and less of a blow than not getting "that" item! Unless your just talking about trash loot and cash, then that doesnt matter too much to those who are in less than full groups.
I agree. In general, I don't think its wise to create artificial restrictions that determine what items or how much experience a player can achieve.
If you want players to group, you make content hard and then create a synergy between players significant enough to make soloing problematic and less efficient. Just slapping a hard-coded bonus or increased drop rate on items based on certain criteria is taking the easy way out.
Its the same issue with preventing higher levels from farming lower level group content. The easy way out is slapping nodrop tags on items or using a trivial loot code. The harder but better (imo) solution is to scale up the reward as content becomes harder. If a level 30 can earn something considerably more valuable doing level-appropriate content, that will naturally encourage they avoid going backwards. Another option is simply making mobs that drop some of the more important items significantly harder for a small group of people. I can think of plenty of mechanics to accomplish that task.
The best solutions always take more work, but the result is a less restrictive and more immersive experience.
I like what Dullahan wrote :D
Changing what loot drops based on group size bothers me. Mostly because it doesn’t make logical sense. That sheep should drop mutton regardless if I solo it or a full group kills it. I can certainly see exp being given a bonus modifier if in a group and of course a higher level solo person beating up a low level sheep to farm mutton should have nerf exp from the differences in level. Higher level sheep should drop 'quality mutton' or somesuch rewarding a more valuable piece of loot.
A group should be able to kill more mobs overall in a 2 hour period than the solo player anyway. That already rewards group play.
It's a complex subject to be sure but I think reward should be based on the content not the group. A group already has the 'bonus' of killing faster and safer and is already getting more XP and more drops (and % chance of rarer drops).
I can see how 'skilled' players might do fine with just the quaternity but, all other things equal, they will kill half as much as a group of 8 (and with more risk). Things start to get 'uneven' no doubt at below 4, because (hopefully) content and the combat mechanic itself is balanced for the quad + some, but if some trio or duo want to try, why penalise them further than the additional risk and slower progress? You may not want to encourage small groups or soloing, but, balance the content well and they are going to really deserve the reward (vs the risk)!
Further comments are based on reading (and hearing Brad in interview I think) that groups are going to be 6 to 8 in Pants. This probably isn't finalised yet though? Anyone? If so...
It's early days, but it seems to me that if you wish to encourage groups beyond the quaternity, then you may get issues because you either balance/design for 6 to 8 and probably make it prohibitively difficult for less than 6 or you add some contrived bonus to encourage bigger groups but they then find the content relatively easy, so why are they being rewarded disproportionately for taking less risk?
I've actually always frowned a tad (consternation and thoughtfulness rather than disapproval - that kinda frown) when I read/hear groups are intended for 6 to 8 when character interaction (combat) is based on a quad. It's very probably beyond me - it's something that requires a lot of study and analysis I'm sure - but I feel if the quad is the core of the balance, then 4 is a reasonable group and 6 is probably a max isn't it? The core quad providing all the function (tank, heal, utility, cc) and a couple of dps that can step into the main roles if things go wrong? Imagining eight feels a little unwieldy and busy? Bah, too early to say and a bit off-topic, sorry.
Related to those thoughts, but back to the OP I agree with Dullahan, Hokanu, etc. I would prefer something less artificial to encourage full groups (and I'm not sure what's wrong with smaller groups anyway hehe)
I agree. In general, I don't think its wise to create artificial restrictions that determine what items or how much experience a player can achieve.If you want players to group, you make content hard and then create a synergy between players significant enough to make soloing problematic and less efficient. Just slapping a hard-coded bonus or increased drop rate on items based on certain criteria is taking the easy way out.
Its the same issue with preventing higher levels from farming lower level group content. The easy way out is slapping nodrop tags on items or using a trivial loot code. The harder but better (imo) solution is to scale up the reward as content becomes harder. If a level 30 can earn something considerably more valuable doing level-appropriate content, that will naturally encourage they avoid going backwards. Another option is simply making mobs that drop some of the more important items significantly harder for a small group of people. I can think of plenty of mechanics to accomplish that task.
The best solutions always take more work, but the result is a less restrictive and more immersive experience.
I agree here as well. The dynamic of small groups is a problem for those of us that usually run in small teams. There are many games that give the feeling of a penalty for not running in the default 5 man teams. My small band left WoW due to this in general and the Pandas. Just could not do it anymore. Back to the topic. The smaller groups made it easier for my group to control. I play with older players and one is color blind so I play with some major handicaps but it is always fun. If XP and loot is limited to group size when the smaller groups should actually get more due to having large cahones or getting really lucky we have a potential for a bad overall experience.
Hope that made sense.
Ox
Umbra said:I absolutely loved group combos in GW2. Definitely made for more interesting combat, and if you played in a regular group/guild, then picking certain skills and weapons became more important to the collective.
The GW2 system has several layers to it, and while I'm not sure PROTF would need to go to those lengths, I would be stoked to see something like this.
I really enjoy this as well. I know the DEVS have mentioned this type of grouping in the game and I think it adds a cool dynamic to the group.
Kilsin said:We actually use the Quaternity system which we will elaborate more on as development progresses but you can find a bit more information on our FAQ page ;)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
I have gone ahead and moved this thread to General Pantheon, as it doesn't belong in News and Announcements, which is meant for VR staff only most of the time.
I am interested in learning more :)
Personally, for many reasons i think we will end up seeing max group size of 6, Quat + 2 DPS just has a very balanced and solid feel to it. I dont think loot should be variable to what classes or how many people are in the group, thats more variables than I would prefer to see at least in this stage of the MMO genre. Im ok if you want to have a full group xp bonus in order to encourage getting more people into the group, but I dont really see this as a problem since boxing will be pretty much restricted to 2-3 box due to the level of activity from each toon ( based on forums posts and watching the stream ) and the fact that you will pretty much need the Quaternity in all groups, so hopefully one person will not be able to be the whole Quat by themselves, ergo, they will need to invite more people to group, hopefully not another multiboxer though, just my 2cents, I know that lots of yall enjoy boxing, just not something I enjoy seeing in groups ( though little to no beef if you do it solo as long as you arent perma camping an important camp )