Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

• Medjai

  

  • 132 posts
   

  April 24, 2016 8:26 PM PDT

  I like the thinking behind the OP. 

  I didn't read much more after that. but, since we know Pantheon won't do anything like this, I do Keep hoping for AA exps later in the game. 

  Not sure what the answer is, but I like making my skills and stats better instead of racing to max level. 

   

• Taledar

  

  • 154 posts
   

  April 24, 2016 9:49 PM PDT

  WE LOVE LEVELS!!

  :)

   

  and actually want even more than levels....AA's make the game go forever and its freakin plain lovely.

  
  This post was edited by Taledar at April 24, 2016 9:49 PM PDT
• disposalist

  

  • 2756 posts
   

  April 25, 2016 12:41 AM PDT

  It sounds like Saga of Lucimia is going for an XP-less skills based system.  In the video interview on thier site they don't get asked how they manage balancing and grouping and it doesn't come up (unless I missed it - it was like two and a half hours)...

• Tralyan

  

  • 769 posts
   

  April 25, 2016 5:47 AM PDT

  I keep coming back to this issue. I ask myself the question "What games have I played that employed this sytem of progression, and did I enjoy it?"

  Simple answer. Any Elder Scrolls single player game. And yes, I've enjoyed them all. They royally pooped the bed with Elder Scrolls on-line, but if all they did was take Skyrim, EXACTLY as it is but with more difficult mobs, and added on-line multiplay, then I would be probably playing that and ignoring Pantheon. (don't hate me for that).

  At the same time, the level system just works. So. Darn. Well.

  I can't decide :(

  -Tralyan

   

• NoobieDoo

  

  • 578 posts
   

  May 1, 2016 5:31 PM PDT

  disposalist said:

  It sounds like Saga of Lucimia is going for an XP-less skills based system.  In the video interview on thier site they don't get asked how they manage balancing and grouping and it doesn't come up (unless I missed it - it was like two and a half hours)...

  
  
  I've been following SoL loosely and I must of missed this. I will check it out, thanks.
  
  

  Tralyan said:

  Simple answer. Any Elder Scrolls single player game. And yes, I've enjoyed them all. They royally pooped the bed with Elder Scrolls on-line, but if all they did was take Skyrim, EXACTLY as it is but with more difficult mobs, and added on-line multiplay, then I would be probably playing that and ignoring Pantheon. (don't hate me for that).

  At the same time, the level system just works. So. Darn. Well.

  I can't decide :(

  
  
  I honestly don't even know if I would like this in an MMO but I'd love for it to be possible, I'd love to try it, and ultimately I think I would enjoy it. I do know it would have a profound effect on the game though. So many things would behave in a different light. Just thinking off the top of my head and picking killstealing. Mobs wouldn't distribute xp at the end of the kill, players would net xp the entire fight depending on which skills they were using so there would be no worry about someone stealing your kill. At least in the sense of stealing your xp. Loot would still need to be situated though.

  I love what Sage of Lucimia is doing and I know they are going with a classless system (which doesn't necessarily excite me) but wasn't aware of the possibility of them doing away with the traditional xp system. I just hope they get the class system down right. I've never been a fan of this.

• GeekVerve

  

  • 79 posts
   

  May 1, 2016 8:51 PM PDT

  I want numbers. I want milestones. If there is a system that provides information on how I'm progressing equivalently to but in some way different than xp bars and levels, I would be open to it. I'm just not sure how it could be anything but less clear to the player.

   

• NoobieDoo

  

  • 578 posts
   

  May 8, 2016 12:07 AM PDT

  Enitzu said:

  Fulton said:

  The biggest issue I see with skill based xp is limits. At some point the game has to expand, even horizontal expansion has it's limits.

   

  With levels, they can just raise the max level range. Not sure it is as easy with skills. If max skill is say 100, and that means your character has mastered that skill, then where do you go from there, move it to 125 cap? What benefits do you get from your skill being above 100? 

   

  More damage, new abilties, etc. 

  But the whole system couldn't be based off of just weapon skills. That would be a pretty shallow build of a game. There needs to be more fleshed into it. And yes there would have to be caps and limitations put in to prevent things going too far out of balance so essentially there would still be a 'cap'. But what there wouldn't be is only x y and z zones to really do anything in for end game. The entire game would be viable. They could add content by having some Dwarven mining team uncover a cave that leads into a new area of a map in the lowbie zone or some ogres find some under ground tunnels after smashing each other through the floor in a bar brawl. Thing is, with horizontal progression everyone is able to do the same things. Some may have an easier time with high skill levels and such but even a brand new toon could have access to those areas. Not just the people sitting at cap. With no levels then there is no out leveling the areas or not being high enough. You simply go where you want when you want. This is really the only way to get a true sandbox imo. Any game containing vertical progression is subject to a some what themepark ride along. you may not have the quest hubs to follow but you have the zone limitations by level.

  
  
  I think if you expanded the game, through xpac or update, you could even roll back skills. Say 100 is 'mastered'. When the xpac comes out, a players skill rolls back to 80 or some label like adept and then the player has to 'master' the skill again. Or you could just increase the cap to 125 or 200 or whatever.
  
  I agree with the sandbox thing too. I think a system like this without levels is more organic and aids in the feeling of a sandbox. Using heals to progress your healing, using your sword to progress your sword skills. With an xp system you can beat up mobs with your sword to the next level and without healing a single person you can be rewarded 3 new heal spells. Simply because you leveled and that's what happens when you reach the say level 12, you get 3 heals, a crushing blow, and a new buff. Yet you only used shield bash to level.
  
  Now that you mention it, xp does seem very themeparkish too. It puts you on rails with getting your character progression. No matter what you do at level 12 you will get an instant heal, an aoe heal, and a shield attack. At level 14 you get a HP buff, a mace attack, and a new undead spell. No matter what you use you are going to get those abilities. You can autoattack for all you'd like and still get those skills. Sandbox lets you create your own experience and to get your heal spells you use heals. To get shield skills you use your shield. etc etc. That's an interesting way to look at it.

• Dullahan

  

  • 1434 posts
   

  May 8, 2016 4:03 AM PDT

  While I can certainly appreciate a more organic feel, these kinds of changes are just the same thing in a different box. Whether you have general experience, or you simply relegate progress to individual skills (represented by numbers - just like xp - just like levels), its all the same thing.

  To me, if you're going to do away with levels and experience, do away with all the numbers. If you want to know whether or not you are stronger, hit a mob a few times. If you couldn't kill the mob in a few hits or nukes yesterday, but today you can, then you are stronger. Otherwise, go back to training.

  Anything less than a change of this magnitude seems superficial to me.

  
  This post was edited by Dullahan at May 8, 2016 4:08 AM PDT
• Crypton

  

  • 53 posts
   

  May 8, 2016 7:44 AM PDT

  The only MMO games Ive p[layed that were able to pull this off were Darkfall and Mortal Online. Both were hardcore full loot PVP games based on skill levels only no player levels at all. I'm not sure if this concept can work in Pantheon because of the way its designed. As some mentioned, how could you go into a high level dungeon not knowing what type of players you are grouping with ? I hate level restriction in many ways but in this respect im not sure it can be pulled off without a complete overhaul of the entire game and thats not going to happen. I enjoy going into high level areas usually a few levels higher than my character is supposed to be able to handle just to enjoy the challenge, sure it slows things down but its a lot of fun knowing you could do it or get your brains beat in. This may not be the best course of action in a heavy death penalty game so I may have to back oof that stance just a bit in Pantheon

• NoobieDoo

  

  • 578 posts
   

  May 9, 2016 12:50 AM PDT

  Dullahan said:

  To me, if you're going to do away with levels and experience, do away with all the numbers. If you want to know whether or not you are stronger, hit a mob a few times. If you couldn't kill the mob in a few hits or nukes yesterday, but today you can, then you are stronger. Otherwise, go back to training.

  Anything less than a change of this magnitude seems superficial to me.

  
  
  I can see how it could be half assed and basically a superficial change. But if I had the dedication I think I could turn it into something big. The way I'm looking at it, it would create a huge shift in philosophy so I'd ride that to the bank and create a LOT of new things with it to make sure it wasn't superficial. And the first step in that would be securing all of the areas that people have concerns with.
  
  How would you know who you can group with. Traditionally, you group with players who are like 5 levels above/below you and if you are then you can get experience. Well, here there is no experience so there are no restrictions with who you can group with. A master can group with a noobie, the noobie just has to 'hit' the mob to skill up. If he can't hit the master's level mob then he doesn't skill up, if the master kills the noobie's level mob before he can even hit it then obviously he doesn't skill up.
  
  How would you know what mobs you can attack. I'd introduce a whole new line of skills that allow you to cast insight on things. It can be a whole wide range of things. You could use insight to see strengths and weakenesses of the mob to compare with what skills you have. You can see what kind of armor it has to see if your weapons and spells can land. This will tell you if you can at least hit the mob. Then you can use insight to see how many HP and MP it has to tell if you can actually do enough damage to it to kill it before you die. You can use insight repeatedly on your group to see what your average dps is which will help you gauge if you can do enough dps to the mob to kill it in time before it kills you. Using insight a number of times on a certain mob could eventually tell you exactly how much HP it has. If you are averaging 10k dps, and insight has you defeating the mob in an average of 45 seconds then it could do the math and tell you exactly what HP it has.
  
  Since you don't get 6 new spells at level 10 and 4 new spells at level 12 etc etc you could introduce new ways to get spells. And obviously you would get spells at a different pace. You wouldn't get 6 spells at level 10 you'd get a heal spell once you healed a number of times. You wouldn't get your crushing blow until you used your mace attack a number of times. Say you get around 20 HP per level and +5 per each CON you have. Now you get HP from taking damage. You need to be hit to gain HP, being attacked and having your body go through that physical trauma is what increases your constitution which would be why melee classes like tanks would end up with more HP then classes who sit in the back and take no physical damage. The more a tank is hit the more HP he would get.
  
  I'd introduce very detailed stats. Strength would affect physical melee damage, type of armor a player can wear, how much a player can carry, how fast they can run, etc. Dexterity would affect physical ranged damage, physical crit chance, what type of weapons and shields a player could use, basically things that are related to using both of your hands. Intelligence could increase crit damage, spell damage. etc etc. I like int to increase crit damage because intelligence would help the player know WHERE a critical location on the body is and dex would increase crit chance because it would give the player the ability to strike that area.
  
  With removing traditional xp I'd introduce in depth stats because players could work on strength and dex and intelligence individually now just like they would work on all their other skills.
  
  I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just trying to let you know I'd go balls to the wall if I'd attempted something like this and I'd make sure it wasn't a superficial change. Go big or go home. Removing 'the numbers' from the players would be a great idea because it's more you could add on to game. You would have to clue the player in some how so that they know they are 'growing'. Like if they increase strength, you don't have to show them the numbers for strength but maybe the player grows in size. Or maybe he does more trauma to the mobs when he attacks them physically. Or he can just simply pick up heavier things. All of these things could visually tell the player he is gaining strength without telling them directly, +5 to strength.
  
  I don't know, it's a cool idea to wrestle with. Definitely a crude idea at the moment but something that could be pretty sweet if given enough time.

• Dullahan

  

  • 1434 posts
   

  May 9, 2016 1:54 AM PDT

  A lot of those ideas were implemented in Darkfall and Mortal Online as Crypton mentioned. You gained stats and skills based on relevant actions. Mine a rock, gain strength. In Darkfall, you gained skills like rigor and vigor from combat actions or taking damage which then naturally enhanced your resistances and character health. Different tradeskills, forms of combat and everything else provided additional attributes and buffs to a long list of passives.

  It seemed like a neat idea, but after playing those games and looking back in retrospect, it was mostly convoluted. It was an interesting layer of depth on the surface, but deep down what made MMORPGs compelling were the much simpler ideas and these systems only complicated them.

  Looking back, you sort of have to pick your poison. You can make the character development more complex, dynamic and organic, or you can make the content in the world more complex. Thus far, the worlds and "PvE" of games that chose the former had very shallow content. That doesn't necessarily mean that its impossible, but it seems to carry some pretty innate complications. The problem to me is that once you increase the number of variables that those highly hybridzed systems have, you lose the necessary structure to create balanced content thats approachable by the average player. In short, it just becomes convoluted.

  Again, not saying its impossible, but I just don't think its necessary. Its majoring in the minors in the wider scope of the mmorpg. I also think its irrelevant to a game like Pantheon, and pretty much incompatible. Time will tell how it will work with SoL, but I'd bet a large sum of money it will be a plague on content development and balancing most of their combat related systems.

  
  This post was edited by Dullahan at May 9, 2016 1:57 AM PDT
• Gawd

  

  • 308 posts
   

  May 9, 2016 4:07 AM PDT

  what i like about the skill based leveling:

  1. you are always gaining power always getting stronger... etc.

  2. no needing to wait in order to play with friends who are new, or needing to create a new character to play with them.

  3. it would make pvp more interesting, hrmm is this guy killing goblins a newbie? should i try to gank him? what if he is just in the low area but has outrageous skills?

   

  what i dislike about skill based leveling:

  1. it obfuscates (yes its a word) progression, what skill level do i need to goto HighPass? can i solo this little cricket?

  2. It is something different and i dislike the new and different.

  
  This post was edited by Gawd at May 9, 2016 4:08 AM PDT
• Liav

  

  • 2130 posts
   

  May 9, 2016 4:05 PM PDT

  I'm with Dullahan on this one.

  If numbers based progression exists, it is essentially the same thing needlessly repackaged.

  Even with skills-based leveling, the skill caps would still have to be hard capped at some point, meaning that a "max level" does effectively exist.

• Shea

  

  • 430 posts
   

  May 12, 2016 6:39 PM PDT

  Jason said:

  Maybe I'm just old, but I just want old school levels and old school classes and old school gameplay but with modernized graphics and the special things that will make Pantheon unique spinning it's own twist on things. 

   

  Here Here Simply put