I would really like to see Pantheon remove the whole xp leveling process. I'm sure xp and levels make life on the devs easier with catering content to players but I think it is one of those final wedges that cause players to feel an MMO is a game rather a virtual world.
I think it can be done more organically and in a way that makes rushing to end game obsolete. I'd like to see a system like EQ, minus the xp levels, where you build your skill in stats like 1handed slash, dual wield, etc. by using those specific weapons. Where you increased your conjuration skill by using conjuration spells. But then you unlocked abilities not by reaching a specific xp level but through use of other skills.
Each class would start out with very specific stats, abilities, traits, etc. A bard would start with for example 1H SLASH (along with many others). Through combat the bard would skill up his 1H SLASH. To unlock skills and new abilities you would need to hit certain skill levels. 1H SLASH could open up 'sweeping slash' at 40 and 'spinning slash' at 75. The old way would require you to unlock DUAL WIELD by reaching say xp level 18. Here, you could require 50 skill points in 1H SLASH to unlock 1H BLUNT, then 50 skill in 1H BLUNT to unlock 1H PIERCE and then to unlock DUAL WIELD you would need to unlock all 3 1H types to at least skill level 50. Spells would function the same way. As a sorcerer used his fire spells his fire skill would increase and upon reaching certain levels he could train with a fire specialist/trainer and learn new fire spells. Also, the sorc could unlock entirely new abilities by use of other skills.
Skilling up in 1H weapons (as well as other skills and traits) could also build specific stats like STR, DEX, CON, etc. You wouldn't need xp to reach level 10 to magically get 5 points to distribute. Each stat would increase by using skills related to each stat. The same for INT, WIS, etc. If you wanted more STR you swing your sword more, if you want more INT you cast more spells. HP could be obtained in many ways which related to exerting yourself such as being hit in combat, swinging your weapons, blocking with your shield, etc. Mainly anything that resembles some form of exercise.
Wearing armor could depend on a combination of stats like STR, DEX, etc. rather than just needing level 30 to wear the Golden BP of Love. All classes could start at wearing light armor and would need to build STR, CON, etc to wear the heavier armor, even tanks. A level 1 Crusader could start with leather but mobs at level 1 wouldn't pose too much of a threat and thus the Crusader could work his way up to heavy armor rather quickly.
It might feel alien for a bit but I think a lot could be done with this. I think it could create an entirely new philosophy within MMOs. You no longer would focus on that xp bar rushing to end game. That ding would no longer encompass what it is to be a warrior tank or a sorcerer canon. Level 10, 15, 20 has determined what type of tank we are, what kind of thief we are. Level 20 has delivered to us an all-purpose tank gift package with 20 HP, 2 sword attacks, a taunt, and an interupt. Or it has told us we are gaining 50 mana, a fire spell, an ice spell, and a teleport spell. Why is that 'ding' defining our classes? If we want a new taunt ability we work on our tank skills, whichever those may be.
Removing this xp bar and leveling system allows us to decide when we want HP and when we want a new taunt ability and what-not. We no longer group night after night to fight gnolls to build up that xp bar. We fight those gnolls to sharpen our swords and our minds, to gain muscle and strength by swinging our sword, and to ultimately learn how to swing two swords at the same time. End game would no longer be black and white, it would no longer mean level 50. It would be more of a gray area that players drift into rather than racing and slamming into.
I know this was a bit of a novel but it is something I've thought about for a while. I like how the Elder Scrolls have used systems like this in their single player games and I wish an MMO would explore this concept. I feel like one or two have tried but I really can't put a finger on it. Thanks for your ear.
Noob
So in a sense you are removing the Level XP aspect and putting a skill XP aspect? How would one be able to tell the difference of a mob they are about to attack if it's a good idea or not to?
PS pls don't feel like I'm attacking you, just trying to hear your thoughts on this opinion so I can get a better understanding of it.
Also how would death penalty be implemented in your system as XP loss seems to be the general consensus among MMOs. Would you take away skill points?
Mod Edit: Copy/Pasted double post into first post so I could go ahead and delete double post, please edit your first post with any after thoughts so you do not breach the forum rules and double post. :)
Taking out class levels and leaving skill levels is nothing but a superficial change. Traditionally, your skill levels are simply gated by your class level. When you slow down the process of gaining skill levels to roughly the equivalent time that it would take to gain a level, nothing has really changed.
As VattoLoco mentioned, it will do little more than obscure how powerful any PC or NPC actually is. When you group with a player, how do you determine whether their capable of any given task? Do you give them a questionnaire to fill out where they check all of the skill they have above a certain number? When you look at a mob, how do you determine its relative level of power? Instead of considering them, looking at their level and assuming they have all of the necessary skills, you now have to determine exactly what skills they have at the appropriate level. Devs would then be obligated to write some sort of algorithm that averages all of their key class skills to provide players with a comprehensive level of power... which would simply be a number which would become the new "level", only making the entire process more confusing and ambiguous than it needs to be.
Beyond that, it will leave player progression feeling less rewarding. People like to gain levels. They like to fill up experience bars. They like the "ding."
This (I think) is moving leveling from one area to another. There's still leveling. People will be rushing to max out their skills. Currently, there's still skill leveling. If anything, this might simplify when people are wanting more complexity. Sounds detrimental. People really want that DING, too. I remember the Pantheon stream and when they played the DING sound the entire chat section EXPLODED in excitement, for a little bit you couldn't even read anything because the text was scrolling so fast.
My take, it's not broken, don't see a need to fix it.
NoobieDoo said:I would really like to see Pantheon remove the whole xp leveling process. I'm sure xp and levels make life on the devs easier with catering content to players but I think it is one of those final wedges that cause players to feel an MMO is a game rather a virtual world.
I think it can be done more organically and in a way that makes rushing to end game obsolete. I'd like to see a system like EQ, minus the xp levels, where you build your skill in stats like 1handed slash, dual wield, etc. by using those specific weapons. Where you increased your conjuration skill by using conjuration spells. But then you unlocked abilities not by reaching a specific xp level but through use of other skills.
Each class would start out with very specific stats, abilities, traits, etc. A bard would start with for example 1H SLASH (along with many others). Through combat the bard would skill up his 1H SLASH. To unlock skills and new abilities you would need to hit certain skill levels. 1H SLASH could open up 'sweeping slash' at 40 and 'spinning slash' at 75. The old way would require you to unlock DUAL WIELD by reaching say xp level 18. Here, you could require 50 skill points in 1H SLASH to unlock 1H BLUNT, then 50 skill in 1H BLUNT to unlock 1H PIERCE and then to unlock DUAL WIELD you would need to unlock all 3 1H types to at least skill level 50. Spells would function the same way. As a sorcerer used his fire spells his fire skill would increase and upon reaching certain levels he could train with a fire specialist/trainer and learn new fire spells. Also, the sorc could unlock entirely new abilities by use of other skills.
Skilling up in 1H weapons (as well as other skills and traits) could also build specific stats like STR, DEX, CON, etc. You wouldn't need xp to reach level 10 to magically get 5 points to distribute. Each stat would increase by using skills related to each stat. The same for INT, WIS, etc. If you wanted more STR you swing your sword more, if you want more INT you cast more spells. HP could be obtained in many ways which related to exerting yourself such as being hit in combat, swinging your weapons, blocking with your shield, etc. Mainly anything that resembles some form of exercise.
Wearing armor could depend on a combination of stats like STR, DEX, etc. rather than just needing level 30 to wear the Golden BP of Love. All classes could start at wearing light armor and would need to build STR, CON, etc to wear the heavier armor, even tanks. A level 1 Crusader could start with leather but mobs at level 1 wouldn't pose too much of a threat and thus the Crusader could work his way up to heavy armor rather quickly.
It might feel alien for a bit but I think a lot could be done with this. I think it could create an entirely new philosophy within MMOs. You no longer would focus on that xp bar rushing to end game. That ding would no longer encompass what it is to be a warrior tank or a sorcerer canon. Level 10, 15, 20 has determined what type of tank we are, what kind of thief we are. Level 20 has delivered to us an all-purpose tank gift package with 20 HP, 2 sword attacks, a taunt, and an interupt. Or it has told us we are gaining 50 mana, a fire spell, an ice spell, and a teleport spell. Why is that 'ding' defining our classes? If we want a new taunt ability we work on our tank skills, whichever those may be.
Removing this xp bar and leveling system allows us to decide when we want HP and when we want a new taunt ability and what-not. We no longer group night after night to fight gnolls to build up that xp bar. We fight those gnolls to sharpen our swords and our minds, to gain muscle and strength by swinging our sword, and to ultimately learn how to swing two swords at the same time. End game would no longer be black and white, it would no longer mean level 50. It would be more of a gray area that players drift into rather than racing and slamming into.
I know this was a bit of a novel but it is something I've thought about for a while. I like how the Elder Scrolls have used systems like this in their single player games and I wish an MMO would explore this concept. I feel like one or two have tried but I really can't put a finger on it. Thanks for your ear.
Noob
Sorry I just dont agree with this notion. How could you tell when a mob outscaled you if there were no levels? I appreciate the creative thought process, but not for Pantheon. Levels are necessary. Elder Scrolls used levels, you just gained experience by honing said abilities. In Everquest, when you honed or practiced an ability you decreased the chance of it failing when used, which is improving it. I like an experience system. Allows you to gauge what is possible and what is not possible when fighting or grinding mobs.
Sounds like you want the same system as Skyrim where you level as you increase in skills. That wouldn't work in Pantheon because Skyrim levels the mobs as you level. They are not a set level and I'm not sure that system would work anyway. If this was a classless game like Skyrim and you do anything you wanted as long as you leveled the skills up for that particular skill then it might work but Pantheon isn't that sort of game and I don't really want it to be either.
I think that this game will follow the EverQuest and the Vanguard method of leveling since that is what most of the people on these forums want (including me). It is a nice idea just not for this game. If you want to see an MMO where this kind of idea has been implemented give the Elder Scrolls Online a try. In that game any character can level their skills in any area.
In a way this sounds a bit like "Project Gorgon"'s advancement system. While very fun and different from the norm, you can rush advancement in almost the exact same way (at least from the amount I've played Project Gorgon) you just rush your skill advancement, instead of your lvl advancement, through killing mobs (or completing certain quests for that specific skill type (if I remember correctly))
I get where you’re coming from, it would be nice to do away with the "x level" and have your combat effectiveness be determined by skill level/stat points, but if Pantheon went that way I think there would be no point in having "classes". Granted it would give rise to many more hybrid/unique classes (fail or win).
I like it but I don't think it fits what pantheon is trying to be :)
Rachael
I don't think this is a terrible idea. I don't have a huge attachment to leveling besides nostalgic. I just don't think it changes the gameplay as drastically as you're imagining. I believe implimenting skill requirements for weapons / even spells isn't a bad idea. But being the only requirement doesn't appeal to me as people said they'll just be grinding skills as opposed to levels. Having a more dynamic skill system being used with equipment besides them just hitting more often or being able to wear it will add to the level system.
I've been playing Project Gorgon as well (fabulous game btw), but I think they're are other games already doing this hardcore and it doesn't seem to fit the Pantheon feel. A lot of players associate their level with their progression and that may take away from their experience. That's a me thing though. What you're talking about certainly has a heavier RPG feel I'm all about but the progression would be just the same for each player and seems like an overcomplication.
Stat increase with use is a fun idea but doesn't mesh with an MMO with each class having specific abilities and identities to begin with a cleric is going to be spamming that Wisdom. Though you may want to grind other stats at higher levels but that just sounds like AA or talents to me. I'm totally on board with having a certain skill level with 1 hand slashing mixed with something else to unlock other abilities to see how that may mesh with different colored mana as well.
VattoLoco said:So in a sense you are removing the Level XP aspect and putting a skill XP aspect? How would one be able to tell the difference of a mob they are about to attack if it's a good idea or not to?
PS pls don't feel like I'm attacking you, just trying to hear your thoughts on this opinion so I can get a better understanding of it.
Also how would death penalty be implemented in your system as XP loss seems to be the general consensus among MMOs. Would you take away skill points?
Mod Edit: Copy/Pasted double post into first post so I could go ahead and delete double post, please edit your first post with any after thoughts so you do not breach the forum rules and double post. :)
Dullahan said:
Taking out class levels and leaving skill levels is nothing but a superficial change. Traditionally, your skill levels are simply gated by your class level. When you slow down the process of gaining skill levels to roughly the equivalent time that it would take to gain a level, nothing has really changed.As VattoLoco mentioned, it will do little more than obscure how powerful any PC or NPC actually is. When you group with a player, how do you determine whether their capable of any given task? Do you give them a questionnaire to fill out where they check all of the skill they have above a certain number? When you look at a mob, how do you determine its relative level of power?
Vade said:
People will be rushing to max out their skills. Currently, there's still skill leveling. If anything, this might simplify when people are wanting more complexity. Sounds detrimental. People really want that DING, too.
This system is mostly used by PvP games for the sake of keeping the power gap between new players and veterans at a minimum. I don't believe its very compatible with a PvE focus MMO, because content is supposed to be soft gated according by player progression (exp/lvls + itemization). That is the biggest problem with PvP MMOs: they lack that meaningful progression and the content necessary to keep players logging in every day. They call it being sandbox, but all it really boils down to is a lack of gameplay alternatives, mostly because they sacrifice those options at the alter of PvP and their shallow skill systems. Its happened in just about every game it appeared.
I really like the idea in essence, but general XP and levelling is a fundamental mechanic to change, so the effect would be massive to the game.
I think (and it is a very complex base mechanic, so full understanding is tough to claim) that in a game where class interaction and grouping is a base concept, then allowing individually designed characters would just cause chaos when trying to balance and perfect and make fun that group interaction. Others have mentioned the inevitable effect of not being able to work out who to group with.
Levelling means that you progress exactly as designed by the devs and, so, they control completely the balancing of classes in a group so that things work really well.
An individually 'designed' class that allows you to pick and choose which skills you develop would be fine in a single-player game, because it's just you choosing which way you like to kill them monsters and the devs just have to make sure no matter what way you go you can still look after yourself.
The whole /con ning of monsters and gating of content is a lesser consideration I would say - personally I would like to do away with that and have characters scale to the 'zone level' but that's another story and it doesn't mean not having a level would be desireable.
Levelling is bound up with classes and balancing group/content. It's a way for a game to carefully design the best way for a particular class to progress and interact in the best way with the group and the environment. Without that control you can't so accurately balance group play and encounters and without that degree of design control you can't make things so challenging.
I'd love to see a game have a good go at it... but I'm not sure what kind of a game you'd get. Go so sandboxey that even the classes are up to the players and, wow, that'd be a devil to design the content.
Dullahan said:This system is mostly used by PvP games for the sake of keeping the power gap between new players and veterans at a minimum. I don't believe its very compatible with a PvE focus MMO, because content is supposed to be soft gated according by player progression (exp/lvls + itemization). That is the biggest problem with PvP MMOs: they lack that meaningful progression and the content necessary to keep players logging in every day. They call it being sandbox, but all it really boils down to is a lack of gameplay alternatives, mostly because they sacrifice those options at the alter of PvP and their shallow skill systems. Its happened in just about every game it appeared.
Definitely a bad idea in my opinion to move away from character levels! If you incorporated the capacity to level skills inside of whilst also gaining character levels then you kind of end up with that EQ was anyways right?
Maybe as a more modern twist if you then add in reachable goals / unlockable passive bonuses to the skills progression like for instance by the time you reach lets say 30 in evocation you increase your range with that spell type by 5 metres or somthing of the sort this could be a good thing to work towards. Maybe a 10% haste increase to the weapon type your leveling by the time you reach 30 skill level in 1h Slash etc. You could possibly offer greater bonuses to specific classes for different skills that they could orientate towards. Giving a warrior a slight edge their own natural defensive coparitively to a crusader because (assumption only) the crusader will utilise their own spell abilities to help them survive where as a warrior who through leveling their shield / block skill to its maximum degree can mitigate extra damage with a shield comparitively to a crusader who doesnt get as good a bonus (but still does geta bonus to an extent). I like this a bit better than giving both the warrior and the crusader the same bonus but making the crusader wait for an extra few levels to achieve it, which is more in line with the EQ system (EQ example being the 2 classes aquiring block / kick / double attack or whatever at different levels)
Going a little deeper into the concept may be to have some forked road options to choose to take the class passive down the direction of (for example only) leveling evocation gives you the choice of longer range / extra damage or faster casting, once a decision is made though you can't select the other option until you respec (if an option at all) or reach the next skill level with that optional passive. Sticking with one bonus type each time allows you to stack more of that bonus with each choice eventually achieving max damage or range or whatever you choose or alternatively balance out your characters progression and bonuses by choosing different passives each time or any combination of the above. Certinaly not a new idea to mmos's but its somthing that i dont think would lead to any particular balence issues but does offer a player the ability to slightly cater to their chosen play style.
disposalist said:I really like the idea in essence, but general XP and levelling is a fundamental mechanic to change, so the effect would be massive to the game.
I think (and it is a very complex base mechanic, so full understanding is tough to claim) that in a game where class interaction and grouping is a base concept, then allowing individually designed characters would just cause chaos when trying to balance and perfect and make fun that group interaction. Others have mentioned the inevitable effect of not being able to work out who to group with.
Levelling means that you progress exactly as designed by the devs and, so, they control completely the balancing of classes in a group so that things work really well.
An individually 'designed' class that allows you to pick and choose which skills you develop would be fine in a single-player game, because it's just you choosing which way you like to kill them monsters and the devs just have to make sure no matter what way you go you can still look after yourself.
The whole /con ning of monsters and gating of content is a lesser consideration I would say - personally I would like to do away with that and have characters scale to the 'zone level' but that's another story and it doesn't mean not having a level would be desireable.
Levelling is bound up with classes and balancing group/content. It's a way for a game to carefully design the best way for a particular class to progress and interact in the best way with the group and the environment. Without that control you can't so accurately balance group play and encounters and without that degree of design control you can't make things so challenging.
I'd love to see a game have a good go at it... but I'm not sure what kind of a game you'd get. Go so sandboxey that even the classes are up to the players and, wow, that'd be a devil to design the content.
With saying all this, I'd definitely still want static classes. I LOATHE a classless system. I like having individual classes who are unique and who have defined roles. They would just have unique skills to progress in and definitely would not have access to every and all skills. A warrior would never be able to finally skill up his fireball. This would help keep things in line and not make everything a mess to design I'd like to think.
NoobieDoo said:With saying all this, I'd definitely still want static classes. I LOATHE a classless system. I like having individual classes who are unique and who have defined roles. They would just have unique skills to progress in and definitely would not have access to every and all skills. A warrior would never be able to finally skill up his fireball. This would help keep things in line and not make everything a mess to design I'd like to think.
Ok, so rather than 'custom' characters you're proposing a sort of freeform specialisation system? So something like a warrior, within his class, can choose to ignore shield in favour of 2-handers (simply by not using shield and using 2-handers) and, if they do, they get different specialisations made available?
That would be less problematic to balance and give you a more sandboxey freedom yeah.
I still think the content gating is kind of seperate though. I personally would like to see people be able to go anywhere and not have content restricted by any notion of /con, level or skill based. If I see a dragon and I'm someone who has consentrated early on in fire resistance and lance then I should be able to have a go regardless of whether I might have, in a level-based system, been the 'correct' level. If I see rats and I never bothered building my plague resistence or practicing with a skinning knife, I should be able to go and 'play' with them whether or not, in a level-based system, they would have been 'greyed out' /con -wise.
I do like the whole conceptual area and, yeah, you probably wouldn't have to adopt a radically new fundamental system to encorporate some of it either. Interesting to think about.
Honestly not sure why so many people seem to think the notion would not fit. This is esesentially what a lot of games are trying to push to, horizontal progression. EQNext was pushing for it as well.
With characters having levels you have the vertical progression which has been a lot of the problem in most games lately. You hit max level you get the best gear then you do nothing for months on end while waiting for the devs to put out new content. You don't have the option to go back and do things from previous places/areas because what's the point?
In a horizontal system the entire world is the end game. Every zone, every mob have roughly the same concept behind them meaning soloable or groupable depending on the game. The raid mobs could be indicated by sheer size alone. If the mob is huge then more than likely you wouldn't be able to do it alone. There have been many different takes on the horizontal systems. None of them have been widely used to my knowledge though.
I do feel that this is where games will need to head however. The rate that the current mmo generation chews through content in any vertical progression game just can't sustain the playerbase for a long enough time without having the burnouts. People thinking that this will change with Pantheon are in for a rude awakening. Raid mobs will be dead by the end of the first month easily and with the small team working on it we will be looking at a year or more for new content. So that's 11 months of farm status for some. Even the slower paced people will see 6+ months of end game farming.
The suggested system may not be completely plausable but it is a decent theory on how to start it. Make some tweaks and add in other systems to work along side it and it very well could work. It would also add in a lot more depth to the game.
The biggest issue I see with skill based xp is limits. At some point the game has to expand, even horizontal expansion has it's limits.
With levels, they can just raise the max level range. Not sure it is as easy with skills. If max skill is say 100, and that means your character has mastered that skill, then where do you go from there, move it to 125 cap? What benefits do you get from your skill being above 100?
Fulton said:The biggest issue I see with skill based xp is limits. At some point the game has to expand, even horizontal expansion has it's limits.
With levels, they can just raise the max level range. Not sure it is as easy with skills. If max skill is say 100, and that means your character has mastered that skill, then where do you go from there, move it to 125 cap? What benefits do you get from your skill being above 100?
More damage, new abilties, etc.
But the whole system couldn't be based off of just weapon skills. That would be a pretty shallow build of a game. There needs to be more fleshed into it. And yes there would have to be caps and limitations put in to prevent things going too far out of balance so essentially there would still be a 'cap'. But what there wouldn't be is only x y and z zones to really do anything in for end game. The entire game would be viable. They could add content by having some Dwarven mining team uncover a cave that leads into a new area of a map in the lowbie zone or some ogres find some under ground tunnels after smashing each other through the floor in a bar brawl. Thing is, with horizontal progression everyone is able to do the same things. Some may have an easier time with high skill levels and such but even a brand new toon could have access to those areas. Not just the people sitting at cap. With no levels then there is no out leveling the areas or not being high enough. You simply go where you want when you want. This is really the only way to get a true sandbox imo. Any game containing vertical progression is subject to a some what themepark ride along. you may not have the quest hubs to follow but you have the zone limitations by level.
In my years of playing and studying video games, I've never come across progression or systems that were incompatible with a level system. There are always ways to find an average from skills or tiers even using armor ranks that could be converted into a player level.
On the other hand, when it comes to creating content with a spread of levels, classes and other special mechanics, NOT having the ability to ascertain a mobs relative level of power could prove very troubling for a lot of people. Sure, the hardcores that don't mind dying to a mob because it randomly happens to possess skills that are the equivalent of a mob 5 levels higher (see any dungeon in EverQuest) might not deter some, but for most people that level of unpredictability would be reason enough to uninstall.
I made my own thread and probably should have just posted my related thoughts here - sorry. It wasn't even late at night... no excuse :)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3200/what-are-levels-for-and-can-we-do-without-them
I've played games a lot and have been a software developer for many years (not that that makes me 'right' lol!) and I've kinda concluded that 'levels' are so tightly bound with the concept of character progression that you can't really have some form of one without some form of the other, especially in an MMORPG.
You can alter the mechanics, but there has to be some way of progressing and some way of balancing content.