I find it very amusing when I hear players in forums, streamers, bloggers, so-called gaming experts call their game du jour a sandbox.
The most recent epxerience of this comes from those playing BDO. And typically it is the youngsters, the 20-somethings with so little historical gaming perspective exciteably calling ther game a sandbox. Like it's a magical title that no other games ever achieve.
In case of fact BDO is a very closed game, and has very limited sandbox aspects at all.
DEFINE YOUR SANDBOX
I am curious how visitors here define their sandbox game.
What aspects does an MMO need to have to be a true sandbox. Which aspects are the most important?
To me a game achieves sandbox status when the developers design a world instead of a game and put as few limits as possible on how you are allowed to interact with it.
The addition of immersive elements that contribute to making the world feel real add to this. Few things include:
No doors that are decorative only. If it has a door it should have an interior that players can get into.
Organic trading not "magically" achieved through a game wide broker system. Eventually player housing that gives us the opportunity to hire NPC's to man our shops for us perhaps. If there is a post system, it should take a believable amount of time for your mail to arrive.
No false safety measures, IE invisible barriers that prevent falling etc.
As many developable, non combat skills at possible. IE fishing, trapping, gardening, etc.
Obviously, the abscence of quest hubs or other "on rails" mechanics to guide players from area to area.
A good mixture of levels of npc in all areas of the world. A good example would be NRo or Oasis from eq1 where lower level players and higher level players are to be found hunting the same area for different things......as would likely happen naturally in a real fantasy world.
In short....a sandbox (to me) is a world where the players are set free to do as they please.
These are just a few things I can come up with off the top of my head. I am sure the rest of the community will come up with a million more!
Ooooooh the Sandbox!
My theory / The Philosophy of definition: If something has no objective definition, or if the definition pertains to something that does not exist, the term becomes non-existant. Ergo, either your definition of sandbox is a dream and does not exist in the real world, or the definition changes based on who you ask, that means the term SANDBOX does not exist, and so you're all crazy people. You might as well call these games "Gadgezoititises" for all the good it'll do you.
With that said:
Morrowind - the main quest + on-line multiplayer + a player driven economy + comprehensive crafting = Sandbox
-Tralyan
zewtastic said:I find it very amusing when I hear players in forums, streamers, bloggers, so-called gaming experts call their game du jour a sandbox.
The most recent epxerience of this comes from those playing BDO. And typically it is the youngsters, the 20-somethings with so little historical gaming perspective exciteably calling ther game a sandbox. Like it's a magical title that no other games ever achieve.
In case of fact BDO is a very closed game, and has very limited sandbox aspects at all.
DEFINE YOUR SANDBOX
I am curious how visitors here define their sandbox game.
What aspects does an MMO need to have to be a true sandbox. Which aspects are the most important?
- 100% Open World - go anywhere
- 100% Open Market - buy/sell any number of anything at any price.
- 100% Free Trade between all players.
- No mechanism for rl $$ to enter the game
- No Fast Travel - anywhere
- No Safe Travel - anywhere
- No Safe Zones - anywhere
- No Bind on Equip
- No Trivial Loot Code
- No Lock out timers on anything including raid bosses, named mobs, etc.
- No Grind2Win aspects
- No Pay2Win aspects
- Real XP loss including de-leveling, loss of skill functionality.
- All player corpses 100% lootable
- All npc corpses 100% lootable
- True weight impacts on a PC. No carrying vast amounts of gear and items.
- No amazing rare drops on misc. NPCs like grass snakes.
- Best gear comes from toughest NPCs and Bosses.
- No path to top gear by simply grinding. Skilled game play is required to acquire best items.
- Top gear is not generalized, but specific to classes.
- No Random gambling mechanisms for players to open boxes for rare chances at amazing items.
I can agree with the first half of your list but the 2nd half tends to go off from what 'sandbox' is about. Sandbox essenitally means that the game isn't 'on rails'. That you aren't predefined into a specific path from point A to B (Level 1 to max). You can go where ever and do what ever you want. But sandbox has nothing to do with payments, xp loss/death effects, gear and/or drops, etc.
I'll copy your stuff that I feel is Sandbox and explain why the others aren't imo.
Sandbox:
And that's about it. Sandbox is meaning that the world itself is a factor in the game. But the rest of the list is pure dev's intentions imo. If they don't want the game to be pvp then it won't be. That doesn't change it from a sandbox stature. Having random drops or getting good drops out of a random chest wouldn't change it from sandbox either. Would make it go more from hardcore to casual however.
Basically your list is a hardcore sandbox free for all. Yea it would be a sandbox but a sandbox doesn't need all of those to be a sandbox game. The only thing a sandbox needs to have is no defined rails guiding the player from place to place in order to classify as a sandbox. BDO is a sandbox, albeit not a great one. Too much korea in it for my taste. Grind for days on end to fail an enchant and lose all your work ... no thanks.
Tralyan said:Ooooooh the Sandbox!
My theory / The Philosophy of definition: If something has no objective definition, or if the definition pertains to something that does not exist, the term becomes non-existant. Ergo, either your definition of sandbox is a dream and does not exist in the real world, or the definition changes based on who you ask, that means the term SANDBOX does not exist, and so you're all crazy people. You might as well call these games "Gadgezoititises" for all the good it'll do you.
With that said:
Morrowind - the main quest + on-line multiplayer + a player driven economy + comprehensive crafting = Sandbox
-Tralyan
Actually, I don't think any Skyrim game is a sandbox. They have have the main story to follow which is technically being on rails aka being guided through the game. Yea you have side quests and crafting you can do as you please but in the long run you still have to do the main story to progress. Granted I don't think I ever played the Multi player so not sure how it changes things.
Satine said:To me a game achieves sandbox status when the developers design a world instead of a game and put as few limits as possible on how you are allowed to interact with it.
The addition of immersive elements that contribute to making the world feel real add to this. Few things include:
No doors that are decorative only. If it has a door it should have an interior that players can get into.
Organic trading not "magically" achieved through a game wide broker system. Eventually player housing that gives us the opportunity to hire NPC's to man our shops for us perhaps. If there is a post system, it should take a believable amount of time for your mail to arrive.
No false safety measures, IE invisible barriers that prevent falling etc.
As many developable, non combat skills at possible. IE fishing, trapping, gardening, etc.
Obviously, the abscence of quest hubs or other "on rails" mechanics to guide players from area to area.
A good mixture of levels of npc in all areas of the world. A good example would be NRo or Oasis from eq1 where lower level players and higher level players are to be found hunting the same area for different things......as would likely happen naturally in a real fantasy world.
In short....a sandbox (to me) is a world where the players are set free to do as they please.
These are just a few things I can come up with off the top of my head. I am sure the rest of the community will come up with a million more!
This is a lovely post. I've touched on some of these same sentiments before. Having as few filters as possible between the player and the world is integral to creating the experience I am looking for.
A sandbox to me is a very literal thing. It is a microcosm of the world we actually live in, but set in a world that never existed (except for those types of games that ARE made to reflect our own world...yawn). I should be able to do WHAT I want to do, in whatever way I choose to do it.
Now, I understand, there ARE limits to what an online world can provide. However, if I choose to be a beach bum, surfing the waves just off the docks of Thurgadin harbor, not caring if Aradune the Surfer Dewd has a +10 sex wax of agility, and I can experience everything that I want to from the game world? THAT means it's a sandbox.
If I have to complete the Trials of Anal Buttsexiness in order to progress my character--in whatever way I choose--then, no, NOT a sandbox.
Enitzu said:zewtastic said:I find it very amusing when I hear players in forums, streamers, bloggers, so-called gaming experts call their game du jour a sandbox.
The most recent epxerience of this comes from those playing BDO. And typically it is the youngsters, the 20-somethings with so little historical gaming perspective exciteably calling ther game a sandbox. Like it's a magical title that no other games ever achieve.
In case of fact BDO is a very closed game, and has very limited sandbox aspects at all.
DEFINE YOUR SANDBOX
I am curious how visitors here define their sandbox game.
What aspects does an MMO need to have to be a true sandbox. Which aspects are the most important?
- 100% Open World - go anywhere
- 100% Open Market - buy/sell any number of anything at any price.
- 100% Free Trade between all players.
- No mechanism for rl $$ to enter the game
- No Fast Travel - anywhere
- No Safe Travel - anywhere
- No Safe Zones - anywhere
- No Bind on Equip
- No Trivial Loot Code
- No Lock out timers on anything including raid bosses, named mobs, etc.
- No Grind2Win aspects
- No Pay2Win aspects
- Real XP loss including de-leveling, loss of skill functionality.
- All player corpses 100% lootable
- All npc corpses 100% lootable
- True weight impacts on a PC. No carrying vast amounts of gear and items.
- No amazing rare drops on misc. NPCs like grass snakes.
- Best gear comes from toughest NPCs and Bosses.
- No path to top gear by simply grinding. Skilled game play is required to acquire best items.
- Top gear is not generalized, but specific to classes.
- No Random gambling mechanisms for players to open boxes for rare chances at amazing items.
I can agree with the first half of your list but the 2nd half tends to go off from what 'sandbox' is about. Sandbox essenitally means that the game isn't 'on rails'. That you aren't predefined into a specific path from point A to B (Level 1 to max). You can go where ever and do what ever you want. But sandbox has nothing to do with payments, xp loss/death effects, gear and/or drops, etc.
I'll copy your stuff that I feel is Sandbox and explain why the others aren't imo.
Sandbox:
- 100% Open World - go anywhere
- 100% Open Market - buy/sell any number of anything at any price.
- 100% Free Trade between all players.
- No Fast Travel - anywhere
- All npc corpses 100% lootable
- True weight impacts on a PC. No carrying vast amounts of gear and items.
And that's about it. Sandbox is meaning that the world itself is a factor in the game. But the rest of the list is pure dev's intentions imo. If they don't want the game to be pvp then it won't be. That doesn't change it from a sandbox stature. Having random drops or getting good drops out of a random chest wouldn't change it from sandbox either. Would make it go more from hardcore to casual however.
Basically your list is a hardcore sandbox free for all. Yea it would be a sandbox but a sandbox doesn't need all of those to be a sandbox game. The only thing a sandbox needs to have is no defined rails guiding the player from place to place in order to classify as a sandbox. BDO is a sandbox, albeit not a great one. Too much korea in it for my taste. Grind for days on end to fail an enchant and lose all your work ... no thanks.
That list was just suggestions, not necessarily what I would choose.
BDO is no sandbox. About the only the only aspect that is kind of sandbox is the open-ish world movement. Zero trading between players, zero market control by players. The economy is tightly regulated by code. Items and gear are all the result of grinding and Random RNG. No challenges to anything. No possibility of NOT getting anything if you grind enough. No sandbox ability for players to be creative, unique and original. Everyone gets everything as long as you have hundreds of hours to grind them out. Does not sound very fun. Grinding virtual widgets for hundreds and hundreds of hours.
I'm seeing several people confuse their desires and stated goals for Pantheon as essential elements of a sandbox. This is incorrect.
As mentioned earlier a sandbox game is simply a game that isn't on-rails. Furthermore a game isn't simply a sandbox or a themepark, there are varying levels of sandbox-ness and thempark-ness.
A true, 100% sandbox game wouldn't make for a vary good MMO in my opinion because in a true sandbox there aren't any rails of any kind, which means no forced progression, which means no levels, skillpoints, or other stats used to measure character growth and bar a player from certain parts of the game.
In a true sandbox any player can, at any point in time, attempt to do any thing supported by the game. For example if the game supports fighting and killing dragons then any player at any length of playtime whether it be 10 minutes, 10 days, or 10 months should be able to choose to attempt to fight any dragon. Victory need not be assured, but any resultant failure must be a direct result of lacking the necessary skill to overcome the challenge and must not be a result of lacking the necessary level or ilevel.
As such the only items from the OP that matter for a sandbox are the first three:
The rest are either sandbox neutral or actually an example of themepark elements, such as
Which implies a somewhat linear progression from gear that is poor to gear that is good.
All of this said I do want Pantheon to be more sandboxy than almost (if not) all MMOs currently out today. Lets just not throw the baby out with all the themepark bathwater.
Oh, and semantics always matter.
Gurt said:I'm seeing several people confuse their desires and stated goals for Pantheon as essential elements of a sandbox. This is incorrect.
As mentioned earlier a sandbox game is simply a game that isn't on-rails. Furthermore a game isn't simply a sandbox or a themepark, there are varying levels of sandbox-ness and thempark-ness.
A true, 100% sandbox game wouldn't make for a vary good MMO in my opinion because in a true sandbox there aren't any rails of any kind, which means no forced progression, which means no levels, skillpoints, or other stats used to measure character growth and bar a player from certain parts of the game.
In a true sandbox any player can, at any point in time, attempt to do any thing supported by the game. For example if the game supports fighting and killing dragons then any player at any length of playtime whether it be 10 minutes, 10 days, or 10 months should be able to choose to attempt to fight any dragon. Victory need not be assured, but any resultant failure must be a direct result of lacking the necessary skill to overcome the challenge and must not be a result of lacking the necessary level or ilevel.
As such the only items from the OP that matter for a sandbox are the first three:
- 100% Open World - go anywhere
- 100% Open Market - buy/sell any number of anything at any price.
- 100% Free Trade between all players.
The rest are either sandbox neutral or actually an example of themepark elements, such as
- Best gear comes from toughest NPCs and Bosses.
Which implies a somewhat linear progression from gear that is poor to gear that is good.
All of this said I do want Pantheon to be more sandboxy than almost (if not) all MMOs currently out today. Lets just not throw the baby out with all the themepark bathwater.
Oh, and semantics always matter.
But shouldn't a TRUE sandbox game support the flea-ridden, welfare-driven beggars outside the Freeport gates?
Krixus said:Satine said:To me a game achieves sandbox status when the developers design a world instead of a game and put as few limits as possible on how you are allowed to interact with it.
The addition of immersive elements that contribute to making the world feel real add to this. Few things include:
No doors that are decorative only. If it has a door it should have an interior that players can get into.
Organic trading not "magically" achieved through a game wide broker system. Eventually player housing that gives us the opportunity to hire NPC's to man our shops for us perhaps. If there is a post system, it should take a believable amount of time for your mail to arrive.
No false safety measures, IE invisible barriers that prevent falling etc.
As many developable, non combat skills at possible. IE fishing, trapping, gardening, etc.
Obviously, the abscence of quest hubs or other "on rails" mechanics to guide players from area to area.
A good mixture of levels of npc in all areas of the world. A good example would be NRo or Oasis from eq1 where lower level players and higher level players are to be found hunting the same area for different things......as would likely happen naturally in a real fantasy world.
In short....a sandbox (to me) is a world where the players are set free to do as they please.
These are just a few things I can come up with off the top of my head. I am sure the rest of the community will come up with a million more!
This is a lovely post. I've touched on some of these same sentiments before. Having as few filters as possible between the player and the world is integral to creating the experience I am looking for.
Why thank you Krixus! I have read some of your posts and I can tell you are a kindred spirit :)
zewtastic said:I find it very amusing when I hear players in forums, streamers, bloggers, so-called gaming experts call their game du jour a sandbox.
The most recent epxerience of this comes from those playing BDO. And typically it is the youngsters, the 20-somethings with so little historical gaming perspective exciteably calling ther game a sandbox. Like it's a magical title that no other games ever achieve.
In case of fact BDO is a very closed game, and has very limited sandbox aspects at all.
DEFINE YOUR SANDBOX
I am curious how visitors here define their sandbox game.
What aspects does an MMO need to have to be a true sandbox. Which aspects are the most important?
- 100% Open World - go anywhere
- 100% Open Market - buy/sell any number of anything at any price.
- 100% Free Trade between all players.
- No mechanism for rl $$ to enter the game
- No Fast Travel - anywhere
- No Safe Travel - anywhere
- No Safe Zones - anywhere
- No Bind on Equip
- No Trivial Loot Code
- No Lock out timers on anything including raid bosses, named mobs, etc.
- No Grind2Win aspects
- No Pay2Win aspects
- Real XP loss including de-leveling, loss of skill functionality.
- All player corpses 100% lootable
- All npc corpses 100% lootable
- True weight impacts on a PC. No carrying vast amounts of gear and items.
- No amazing rare drops on misc. NPCs like grass snakes.
- Best gear comes from toughest NPCs and Bosses.
- No path to top gear by simply grinding. Skilled game play is required to acquire best items.
- Top gear is not generalized, but specific to classes.
- No Random gambling mechanisms for players to open boxes for rare chances at amazing items.
The only game, so far that I have seen, which checks off all of those marks is EVE Online which I played for nearly 9 years and do you know what? I don't want a game that has all those boxes checked. Most though? Yes.
Enitzu said:The most recent epxerience of this comes from those playing BDO. And typically it is the youngsters, the 20-somethings with so little historical gaming perspective exciteably calling ther game a sandbox. Like it's a magical title that no other games ever achieve.
In case of fact BDO is a very closed game, and has very limited sandbox aspects at all.
I have to completely agree with this. In fact "grind2win" pretty much defines BDO. Grind mobs to get any level exp. Grind plodding from one town to another with a pack on your back to raise a stat. Grind running from town to town to town over and over and over to raise trading, etc. It does have a lot of other mechanics besides dungeons and raids but having to leave a game on 24/7 in order to get anywhere with it turns me off. I also found it very linear in where to go and what to do.
zewtastic said:I find it very amusing when I hear players in forums, streamers, bloggers, so-called gaming experts call their game du jour a sandbox.
The most recent epxerience of this comes from those playing BDO. And typically it is the youngsters, the 20-somethings with so little historical gaming perspective exciteably calling ther game a sandbox. Like it's a magical title that no other games ever achieve.
In case of fact BDO is a very closed game, and has very limited sandbox aspects at all.
DEFINE YOUR SANDBOX
I am curious how visitors here define their sandbox game.
What aspects does an MMO need to have to be a true sandbox. Which aspects are the most important?
- 100% Open World - go anywhere
- 100% Open Market - buy/sell any number of anything at any price.
- 100% Free Trade between all players.
- No mechanism for rl $$ to enter the game
- No Fast Travel - anywhere
- No Safe Travel - anywhere
- No Safe Zones - anywhere
- No Bind on Equip
- No Trivial Loot Code
- No Lock out timers on anything including raid bosses, named mobs, etc.
- No Grind2Win aspects
- No Pay2Win aspects
- Real XP loss including de-leveling, loss of skill functionality.
- All player corpses 100% lootable
- All npc corpses 100% lootable
- True weight impacts on a PC. No carrying vast amounts of gear and items.
- No amazing rare drops on misc. NPCs like grass snakes.
- Best gear comes from toughest NPCs and Bosses.
- No path to top gear by simply grinding. Skilled game play is required to acquire best items.
- Top gear is not generalized, but specific to classes.
- No Random gambling mechanisms for players to open boxes for rare chances at amazing items.
I agree with a lot of these, but not all. There still has to be a balance.
Satine said:Anistosoles said:But shouldn't a TRUE sandbox game support the flea-ridden, welfare-driven beggars outside the Freeport gates?
Erm....that would be outside the Thronefast gates /smile
We have confirmed kicking snakes.....why not Beggars?? +1 for flea-ridden beggars!
ROFL. I totally forgot that you use to be able to level up begging in EQ
Like someone said, sandbox is being able to live (play) in the world the way you want to. To elaborate, that means various ways of playing the game, progressing your character, and shaping the world, other than combat.
MMOs have become increasingly about the adventuring sphere of gameplay, offering few alterative roles for the player. Wolfshead said it best: "All of us who play MMOs are mercenaries now. We are not players role-playing humans, elves and dwarves that care about own adopted unique culture and civilization and are fighting for our survival; instead we are merely donning the cosmetic guises of these races with self-interest as our only concern." "The average MMO player is a pirate, a brigand and an outlander that has no real connection with the world. He exists only to gratify himself with the acquisition of more loot and more power."
Vanguard endeavored to bring crafting, trade and diplomacy to the table as ways to play the game. I'd like to see these alternative forms of gameplay and advancement beyond just killing monsters. That is what it takes to achieve sandbox status.
Enitzu said:Tralyan said:Ooooooh the Sandbox!
My theory / The Philosophy of definition: If something has no objective definition, or if the definition pertains to something that does not exist, the term becomes non-existant. Ergo, either your definition of sandbox is a dream and does not exist in the real world, or the definition changes based on who you ask, that means the term SANDBOX does not exist, and so you're all crazy people. You might as well call these games "Gadgezoititises" for all the good it'll do you.
With that said:
Morrowind - the main quest + on-line multiplayer + a player driven economy + comprehensive crafting = Sandbox
-Tralyan
Actually, I don't think any Skyrim game is a sandbox. They have have the main story to follow which is technically being on rails aka being guided through the game. Yea you have side quests and crafting you can do as you please but in the long run you still have to do the main story to progress. Granted I don't think I ever played the Multi player so not sure how it changes things.
I agree! And to be fair, that's why I said (-) Minus! the main story. Twas a formula using Elder Scrolls as a base.
I also have a feeling that most people are taking Zews post as how they'd like to see Pantheon, and disagreeing on that level, when that's not the question. The question, or the topic, is nailing down a definition of "Sandbox", to which I agree for the most part.
Middle school. We learned to follow directions.
-Tralyan
Sandbox is a massively over-used and abused term these days.
In IT (and in other engineering disciplines I believe) it means an environment in which it is safe to experiment (or more to the point, develop stuff).
When first used for gaming, it was used to encapsulate the idea of having few rules and simple mechanics such that a 'game' would emerge rather than be pre-defined.
Both of course come from the idea of a child's sandbox in which they are a) safe to play, build, destroy without 'real' consequences and b) follow no rules, have simple tools and and yet games often emerge in their playing.
I suppose a true 'sandbox' game would provide simply a 'themed environment' with some fun mechanics and ways for players to interact and then players would make up their own aims and achievements and whatnot and find their own 'game' to play.
Most games described as 'sandbox' merely have some sandbox-like aspects. Minecraft has basic crafting of materials and objects but the way people used it to make some very complex and impressive structures was 'sandboxy' on the building side.
EQ had some sandbox-like moments... we held running races (especially fun and dangerous when drunk and on the Kelethin tree-bridges), treasure hunts, unofficial zergs/raids on places/NPCs not intended to be attacked, competative 'train'ing, weddings and other social events, etc. You can't stop players doing crazy stuff
I'd be interested to see some sandbox stuff in Pantheon, but you could waste an awful lot of development effort coding stuff that just might not have any fun impact. Suppose they code wildlife that eats, poops, reproduces, runs away from some things, is attracted by other things, can be milked, etc. Some players might have a go at domesticating or even farming them, but if that's not much fun compared to exploring dungeons, then they'd waste a lot of effort making wildlife mechanics noone would use. Suppose they develop realistic water and mining. We find a lake in a mountain and decide to tunnel to it so as to flood the orc nation in the valley below. 1,000,000 XP in one go! Sandboxy, yup. Fun maybe, but probably not a good idea.
Its very true, that making alternative forms of gameplay worthwhile and rewarding is a time consuming process. I for one at least hope to see some options emerge once the major adventuring development is complete. Obvious ones are tradeskills. The trick is making them fun and in-depth enough to engage in, but also worthwhile and profitable. Like @disposalist said, if you are farming wildlife, they should yield something that has value to the inhabitants of the world. Balancing that sort of thing is no small task.
Some ideas of formal tradeskills I'd like to see would be farming, animal husbandry, transit or trade routes - by land and sea (of both players and goods), commerce (player run stands, shops, consignment or even auctions), tinkering/engineering, carpentry/masonry with racial or continental specializations (perhaps carpenters of small races have subterrainian techniques, elves build upwards into trees or rock faces, dark myr on water, humans... like humans) so on and so forth.
I also think other types of gameplay should not be tacked on, and be a grueling process to achieve mastery. In EQ or especially FFXI, becoming a top tier crafter required a large devotion of both time and money (in-game). Unless you were max level and rich, to succeed at crafting you had to play the market and craft the items in highest demand. Crafting should be created for crafters, not for everyone to just "do in the mean time."
I could go for days about the ideas I have for making a sandbox game with depth, but I think Visionary Realms has the right approach to this. They've said they want to create a "themepark within a sandbox." I believe that is crucial, because as someone who has played almost every sandbox game in existance, they get boring if there isn't content for players to tackle or work towards. Just look at every sandbox game, be it pure Sim, PvE or PvP - the result is always the same: They lack meaningful long-term goals and achievements. The sandbox is a variety of "means to an end" where the end is the themepark providing said goals.