2nd post! And I promise this one will be appropriate for this general discussion thread!
One thing that was big for me in Everquest was the amount of time and effort I put in to raise enough money to eventually purchase a Pre-Nerf COS (and other rare items) for my necromancer. The amount of tricks you could do with that and insta-invis vs. undead was amazing. Being able to feign death, pop-up and insta-invis...play agro games...so worth it. After you have one, its hard to imagine the game without it.
I'd like to think that this game would somehow have these kinds of items in it. I know it's probably a bit difficult for some people to wrap their heads around that concept but it made the game exciting in a way that is hard to put into words. I even recall back in the day people saying it was straight-up unfair that some people would have an insta-invis item like that. And perhaps the items don't have to be THAT amazing...but the idea of having a very limited supply of certain items in a game is an appealling concept if it is done properly.
I guess this goes back to the instant-gratification concept. I don't want things handed to me. I want to feel like I earned what I have. After spending months in Sebilis, I could buy a pre-nerf CoS. I was able to give every one of my friends all kinds of spells and items in the process. Everyone wins when there are things to strive for in a game. If everyone could get a pre-nerf CoS with no effort, none of the above happens. No one sits in Sebilis with random friends for a month. No one loads up their brother with every spell imaginable for all his characters. No one farms giants in the Burning Woods to raise money. No one gets a group together for a Chardok run to make some extra money.
Games need Fungi-Tunic concepts...there needs to be items that are rare drops off rare spawns in hard-to-reach places in hard-to-find NON-INSTANCE zones. Games need pre-nerf CoS concepts where items are limited in supply. I may have a third of the time to play this game as I did with Everquest now that I'm older, but I'd still like to work hard for something. If someone else happens to be camping it, then so be it. If someone else happened to get the item before it was discontinued, so be it. I'll go find something else to farm. I'll go find a way to raise the money to buy it. As long as I know there isn't an instance where 500 people are farming the same rare drop, its okay.
A game with a sense of accomplishment...where you have long-term goals that don't get railroaded by the new expansion that just came out and makes everything you just worked for, worthless. That is what is missing from MMOs. If this game enables you to have longer-term goals and carry them out, it will succeed. I want to be in a game where my goal to kill Emperor Ssra or Emperor Seru isn't thrown away because a new x-pac came out and made that goal meaningless. I want an item like a pre-nerf CoS or a fungi-tunic to always have value.
The day I quit World of Warcraft, I said to myself, "What is the point of doing this dungeon? EVERYTHING on me becomes outdated soon anyways". It was at that moment it hit me that I was done with that game. If that is avoided, if items retain value over many years, I think you have a game worth devoting your time to.
I enjoyed your first and second post. And /agree with both.
Fortunately for you, I think the developers do as well. The following is from the FAQ:
Our desire to bring back the value and personality of items drives our item design. This means that the frequency of upgrades will be slower and when you do get a new piece of gear not only will the experience be memorable but so will the item. We want you to collect your items and be able to remember their names. When you get that epic item or rare drop after an incredible dungeon crawl, we want you to be in awe of what you have accomplished and the reward that came from it. Items will be memorable, deserved, cherished, and desired.
There will also be many ‘situational’ items. Please see The Pantheon Difference.
Vandraad said:If I understand you correctly, you want overpowered and unbalanced yet tradeable items to be introduced specifically so they can be nerfed into oblivion later so that later you can buy them if you didn't manage to get one before the nerf?
LOL! that's funny hehe, but I think you are taking that a little to literally with how the OP used said items as examples, and I've read where Brad (scroll down a little https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2295/some-thoughts-on-crafting) addressed this a little bit with what they have in mind for their vision of items and such mechanics
Edit: sorry, wrong link in first reply
Vandraad said:If I understand you correctly, you want overpowered and unbalanced yet tradeable items to be introduced specifically so they can be nerfed into oblivion later so that later you can buy them if you didn't manage to get one before the nerf?
Not neccessarily to the extent of the pre-nerf CoS, but that concept. Not crucial items that make the game completely unfair - like a weapon that instakills everything. Perhaps something like a ring that drops off a boss...it has insta-click HP buff...and eventually it gets nerfed to a 5 second cast time HP buff. But the insta-click HP buff version still exists. That kind of thing.
I think it's idiotic to have limited availability items like this. All it says is that the developers are too dumb to balance things properly. If a nerf is applied to an item, there is zero reason why it shouldn't retroactively apply.
Liav said:I think it's idiotic to have limited availability items like this. All it says is that the developers are too dumb to balance things properly. If a nerf is applied to an item, there is zero reason why it shouldn't retroactively apply.
Agreed, if an item was deemed worthy of a nerf, the nerf should apply to all of these items in the world, old and new.
Hmm. I'm on the fence on this one. It was cool to see pre-nerf items in EQ and I always wanted one but at the same time if an item was deemed worthy of a nerf then that in its self is evidence that it destroys the balance of the game that the devs were trying to get. So I guess I could go either way on this argument.
I wouldn't mind seeing limited-run slightly overpowered items that were planned to no longer drop after a certain time.
I think the key is"planned" and not "whoops, we messed up", although I know you can't plan for everything.
I agree. There really needs to be items in the game that just make you drool and wish you had them and push you to try and get them. A couple others, which share the concept, were the Journeyman Boots. These became commonplace but they allowed non-SOW players to cast SOW on themselves, and had the bonus of instant cast. Another (probably the most class-breaking item in the game) was the earring of living slime which anyone could click for root. This gave folks like Mages unimaginable power.
For me, I liked my clickies that cleared a spell slot (another reason spell sets should be limited) such as a clicky root on my druid, etcetera.
That is what made Everquest truly Everquest. Not because there were thousands of NPCs with ! above thier head. But because there were so many Items, Keys, Factions, etc etc that you needed to put alot of effort into accomplishing. When you looked at it holistically, it truly felt like there were an infinite amount of things to achieve in the game.
Nerfing the CoS wasn't intentional from the origin of its design, it happened organically. Creating items specifically with the intention to nerf them later is kinda...lame. It's like EC tunnel. It wasn't designed or intended to be the hotspot for social gathering, it just played out that way naturally. I'm sure overtime we will see our share of pantheon uniqueness.
I'm kind of torn. On the one hand, having unique hard to get items is always a good thing. It makes them desired and gives you something to shoot for. But on the other hand, if it was that powerful that it needed such a big nerf then why have pre nerfed ones at all? Double edged sword imo. I would prefer they have some strong but not godlike items with very low drop rates or off hard to get to and out of the way places. Let things be rare because they are rare not because it got nerfed and you can't get it anymore.
Sarim said:Liav said:I think it's idiotic to have limited availability items like this. All it says is that the developers are too dumb to balance things properly. If a nerf is applied to an item, there is zero reason why it shouldn't retroactively apply.
Agreed, if an item was deemed worthy of a nerf, the nerf should apply to all of these items in the world, old and new.
So when the mana stone was removed from the loot table everyone who had one should lose it?
I will never forget as a level 15 Wizard back in 1999 helping a group kill this little spawn called Pyzjn and getting a Glowing Black Stone from her as loot. I carried that stone all the way into Kunark.
Back then no one even really knew what it was and I almost traded it off for a Stein of Moggok when it dropped. Itemization is so important.
I think that the difficulty of attaining these items changes over time and the reward may need to be nerfed. I do not like when there is a change on an item that you already own like in EQ2. Part of the drive to be one of the first to get these or any items was getting them before they got nerfed. If they were going to get nerfed you never knew. I remember some things getting changed a few days into the expansion sometimes.
An idea would be to look at these as legendary items. There can only be so many legendary items of the same type on any server. Let's just say 100. After 100 drops the item might take a hit and not be as great as the old item but similar in power and effect like circlet of shadows. Clicky invis was still kinda cool but nothing like insta click.
I am a HUGE fan of items that are sought after and powerful, even 10 expansions later.
The COS is one of my biggest treasures on my necro. And i got it myself back then, not bought.
Also this drop was from a level 30-40ish mob, not even endgame in a dungeon designed for groups or strong solo players. I also love that fact. Give us valuable items, not only at maximum level. It is ok if they are few and far between, but add them. Getting that item that is like having a legendary,.. but while leveling, is so much fun.
