So clearly many of us here loved EverQuest and the Vision that drove it. We hold many of its tenets in high regard, otherwise there wouldn't be a demand for a game such as Pantheon, right? Many of us yearn for an MMO that fulfills the promise of those earlier games, but as Visionary Realms has already concluded, even we orphaned gamers have grown up and might not be able to engage with a game to the same degree that we used to. So in the interest of exploring ways to take the vision behind a game like EQ and make it work for the modern era, I'm wondering what the community feels are some features and mechanics from the post-EQ market that could still fit in a game like Pantheon.
For me personally, almost everything I want to see out of an MMO was accomplished in a game that released shortly after EverQuest: Anarchy Online. Although it was a buggy mess at launch and never quite picked up steam as a result, once the game stabilized I personally found it to be the perfect representation of old-school MMO ideals in a more progressive, future-minded package. Many of its systems were still geared towards group-centric, world-exploration-based gameplay with longer term character development, but at the same time permitted diverse approaches to the game and kept players in the action.
A few highlights that I'd love to see considered for Pantheon are:
The Death Penalty
Anarchy Online's death penalty was, in my opinion, the ideal sweet spot between the unforgiving penalties of EverQuest and Final Fantasy XI, and the more mild 'who really gives a crap' penalties of WoW and its ilk. Effectively there was experience loss as in games like EQ, but with the stipulation that you could save your character's current experience back in town for a fee (small, but not inconsequential back when credits were in rare supply). Any experience gained since the last save would be lost on death, although leveling up would count as a free 'save' thus preventing level loss.
This might actually sound a little more brutal than just losing 10%, but in the context of risk vs reward gameplay it's actually pretty smart. The longer your party stays out adventuring, the more you're putting things on the line. As you push deeper into a dungeon you start evaluating when it might be wise to just turn back to get that save in. If the penalty is too harsh there are also ways to negate it, as AO eventually did by just having any lost exp go into a 'pool' that would slowly be regained as a bonus 10% to normal exp earned. And the fact that levels are saved means that while the sting of death is still very much there, you can at least avoid situations where players become hesitant to attempt content for fear of setting themselves back days worth of work.
Soloing Viable, Grouping Exceptional
Unlike its high fantasy predecessor, soloing in AO was pretty manageable for any class. Sure there were always some that were more effective than others, but at the end of the day nobody was breaking their back over trying to kill an even-con, or even scraping by with a yellow. You might argue that an MMO should be all about the interaction with others, and I agree, but at the end of the day there are only so many camps and so many groups. I can recall numerous nights in FFXI where I spent more time AFK watching TV waiting for an open spot in a group than I did actually playing the game.
Anarchy Online's soloing was viable, but still significantly slower than grouping - one day's progress solo could easily be accomplished in an hour or two grouping. The end result was that groups were still highly preferable, but at least players weren't barred from making progress if they couldn't get into a group or didn't have the time. Ultimately as much as I prefer grouping, I prefer the game that I can actively play above all others, and AO was the sort of game where I could always get something done - inefficient thought it might have been - until that golden grouping opportunity came along.
Downtime ...without all the downtime.
Downtime is one of those things that I simultaneously love and despise. It's a necessary evil of sorts in that it promotes that social interaction that has been lost in the age of rotation spamming, but at the same time it drives some of the most boring moments in EverQuest. Don't get me wrong, I love the opportunities to sit and talk. I'm just not sure I love them so much that I would want to go back to the days of casting one or two spells per pull, then meditating the rest of the fight while the melee auto-attack their way to glory.
AO helped alleviate some of the downtime through the use of medkits. Effectively once out of combat, characters could sit and use a medkit appropriate to their skill to begin regenerating some of their health and mana. The regen was fast enough that it took at most a couple of minutes to go from empty to full in-between fights, but not so fast that it was possible to engage in the 'go go go' mentality of the modern MMO's dungeons. This meant that casters could play more actively during the span of a single pull without the concern for having to spend the next ten pulls sitting down. The downtime was diminished enough to promote more engaging play, without actually cutting out the element of downtime that promotes a social experience.
More Levels = More Milestones
In EverQuest, having entire suites of spells spread across every 4-5 levels meant sometimes going days or even weeks without experiencing any significant development. Anarchy Online solved this in a few different ways, but one of the most distinct for me was the fact that with 200 levels, even though 1-200 might still take up to a year of effort, the individual dings and subsequent character development came more frequently overall. While I don't think any game needs such an excessive number of levels, I do think if Pantheon intends to tread the path of slow-yet-meaningful character growth, it would benefit from creating a series of milestones within a single level.
Examples might be dividing up new stats and abilities for every 25% progressed as opposed to only ever with the entire level, or perhaps raising skill caps for skills such as 1hb or evocation in increments rather than a bulk '5 per level'. This sort of incremental advancement helps to make slow leveling more palatable, as there is less opportunity to feel exhausted with a lack of character development.
Anyway, that's my personal list of post-EQ elements that I think are viable and valuable to a modern game in the Gen-1 style. What about yours?
I don't know if I like the idea of leaving to go back into town to save. I want to get out in the world and stay as long as possible. Now, if I had to return for supplies (food/water/etc) that would help immersion I think.
I also found that the constant bombardment of spells and gear was disheartening. Everything I had was replaced immediately. Nothing was long-term so I never felt attached to anything. Spells were especially bad. I stuck with a spell LINE but very few spells were long lived.
Pretty much agree.
I think EQ became a better game when it ditched corpse runs as a death mechanic. It still has the loss of xp/levels and I personally believe that XP debt is a better system altogether.
The downtime in classic was a bit too high in my opinion, but I also think it became too fast with the implementation of out of combat regen. I think Phinigel is about perfect, much faster than classic but not so much that it trivializes interdependence between players or time invested.
Milestones, eh. I don't think it would have a significant effect either way, personally. The leveling in Pantheon isn't going to be as slow as classic EQ, it simply can't possibly be without tweaking the numbers to absurd levels. All in all, I don't think subdividing skill/stat progression into fragments of levels as opposed to whole levels is really going to make a grind any more or less palatable.
Ast I agree with you although I never played AO. Death penalty makes players more aware of their surroundings. Also makes the reward worth more. When I log into EQ2 I feel nothing compared to p1999. When logging into p1999 I am always on high alert on where my character is. I care for his being! This does add another level to a game IMO. When I barely make it out alive of a train or close fight I feel elated. I don't feel this or have seen in other mmo's.
I actually liked the way death was handled in Vanguard. Can resurrect at a shrine for xp penalty; however, you could always go back and recover your tombstone to reclaim most of your lost xp. It worked out quite well and I hope they implement something along those lines. Take the debt or risk another tombstone trying to recover your previous one. Rezzers could still rez you, but you didn't HAVE to make the corpse run if you were willing to take the xp hit.
Am I alone in thinking that the mana regen in the pre-alpha video seemed about right? At first I thought "god, that's slow" until I realized that 1) I was used to other games where mana/health regenerated so fast after a fight you hardly had time to think; and 2) The people in the group were actually TALKING and had time to joke around and/or plan their next move instead of just running around killing stuff. I liked it.
Great post, even if I disagree with some of it.
1. I do not like the AO death penalty idea. Having to go back to town after you've broken a camp at the bottom of a dugneon so you won't lose your progress if you die? Blech.
2. I loved EQs division of power between classes that were solo powerhouses but couldn't do jack squat in a dungeon without tanks, and the melee(and other) classes that were not at all efficient soloers but were amazing in groups and dungeons. Monks were garbage soloers in vanilla, and absolutely dominant in dungeons. All the druids and necros who raced to 50 outdoors and got rich and had all the outdoor loot they could get were clamouring to join our group when the melee classes caught up because we were doing lower guk and sol b.
3. Pretty good take on downtime. I think perhaps sometimes I romanticize it in retrospect because of the "it engenders social interaction" argument and forget that it wasn't great to have tremendous amounts of downtime. I still think it's really necessary to give us a game that isn't a fast twitch loot spam. In a game that many of use are looking to play for a very long time, downtime can be a very good thing. A slower pace allows us to stop and smell the roses, to appreciate the sky and the weather and the sounds and each other.
4. I made a post about this exact thing and I completely disagree. Spell circles were fantastic, they gave you something to look forward to, they made you feel stronger when you first got one and then that level before your next circle you'd feel weak, it was a great dynamic. The sense of relief and accomplishment when you got that next circle was awesome. There was an ebb and flow to your power that had a real impact. Today's system of giving a skill/spell every single level is cheese and does not give me nearly the sense of accomplishment.
Liav said:I think EQ became a better game when it ditched corpse runs as a death mechanic. It still has the loss of xp/levels and I personally believe that XP debt is a better system altogether.
I feel this is often overlooked when the rose colored glasses are on. Settling down to play for an evening, only to wipe deep into a dungeon and have to sit around for a CR/Rez (or hope for a necro) was not an enjoyable experience. Still, I'm a huge proponent of MMO death being meaningful, and modern MMOs have sadly taken this out of the equation.
Personally, I like having the option to remotely recover (in zone) your corpse and gear incase you are unable to field a cleric or necro for a rez/summon. This ability should come at a substantial XP hit, with a lengthy reuse timer (once or twice a day), and gear durability hit. Having a group wipe at the tail end of a play session and only being able to look forward to the corpse recovery scenario the next time you log on was just plain not fun.
Endalmir said:Liav said:I think EQ became a better game when it ditched corpse runs as a death mechanic. It still has the loss of xp/levels and I personally believe that XP debt is a better system altogether.
I feel this is often overlooked when the rose colored glasses are on. Settling down to play for an evening, only to wipe deep into a dungeon and have to sit around for a CR/Rez (or hope for a necro) was not an enjoyable experience. Still, I'm a huge proponent of MMO death being meaningful, and modern MMOs have sadly taken this out of the equation.
Both good points. I also see some counterpoints against AO's death penalty which I agree with - it has its drawbacks as well. The value in it, to me, is that by allowing progress to be saved and avoiding a constant and inescapable 10% penalty, it at least offers players the option of a little more security before setting out on their next adventure. That being said, having 100% security doesn't work all that well either because there's nothing to caution players against making a trek out into a max-level zone 'just for the hell of it'.
So taking AO's later implementation with exp loss going into a 'pool', and considering everything else, here is a system that came to mind that I think settles into a nice middleground and could satisfy Pantheon's desire for old-school penalties while still being a little more accommodating of more modern needs:
This model would achieve a number of things, from providing a viable alternative to the traditional corpse run, to retaining a punishment factor that deters players from taking unnecessary risks while still awarding foresight and perseverence. I will say that I prefer the pool + % bonus recovery model to the concept of EXP debt, as I've always found that the latter can make an already arduous exp-gain process feel even more sluggish, and is only exacerbated when the debt stacks. At least when it's a straight loss there isn't a feeling that you're punished for all the subsequent gains thereafter.
Also, not quite sure what would constitute this as off-topic since the point is to discuss development choices informed by games other than EQ that might still suit Pantheon, but if I've posted in the wrong place, mods feel free to move! :P
Even I will not be so sentimental that I would argue that corpse runs don't suck big time. If that's something that changes/goes away, I probably won't argue.
A successful corpse run should grant some returned exp (Even without a cleric). You should also have an option to summon your corpse in town, but at that point you cannot regain any exp. This way there is incentive to do a CR, but it is not required to continue playing.
Graveyard system was much better, set to a fix time after death, your corpse would appear in the nearest graveyard. That way if a group want to fight back to recover corpses, they still can and if for some reason you can't afford the time to do it, you get your corpse back later on.
Linkamus said:A successful corpse run should grant some returned exp (Even without a cleric). You should also have an option to summon your corpse in town, but at that point you cannot regain any exp. This way there is incentive to do a CR, but it is not required to continue playing.
I rather like a fix time, instead of a summon corpse button else many players will bail on their current group out of lazyness.
Linkamus said:Meldor said:I rather like a fix time, instead of a summon corpse button else many players will bail on their current group out of lazyness.
You mean like after a few hours, your corpse automatically spawns in town?
I would prefer it to be a graveyard in the zone, so you still have to trek back to the general area. But as mentioned by others that would also requirean xp hit, where as a true CR would be a lesser hit, but should still be a hit.
Could even implement a series of CR options.
1) True CR (Least xp loss)
2) zone Graveyard on a timer (standard xp loss)
3) Town Mortician resurrection (standard xp loss + a penalty for the service and monetary cost)
This wold not take into account player resurrections which would be a little less than standard xp loss.
Death should never be free of cost (I might make the exception to level 5 and under).
Like others, it always sucked to die at the end of a night, and then have to spend a couple more hours doing a CR when really you need to get some sleep before work. :P
I absolutely think therr should be lost xp on death... death should matter and considering who this game is specifically targetting I doubt it would be an issue with the community.
What I am absolutely AGAINST is 2 hour CR's.
I use to have no kids, just my wife who worked 3rd shift at the time and I could stay up all night gaming and then go to bed when she got home...... THOSE DAYS BE GONE!!!
2 kids, both wife and I working and church life..... I just don't have time for running around trying to find and collect my coprse for 2 hours anymore. But I absolutely support cost and reward game play.
Xanier
Fulton said:Linkamus said:Meldor said:I rather like a fix time, instead of a summon corpse button else many players will bail on their current group out of lazyness.
You mean like after a few hours, your corpse automatically spawns in town?
I would prefer it to be a graveyard in the zone, so you still have to trek back to the general area. But as mentioned by others that would also requirean xp hit, where as a true CR would be a lesser hit, but should still be a hit.
Could even implement a series of CR options.
1) True CR (Least xp loss)
2) zone Graveyard on a timer (standard xp loss)
3) Town Mortician resurrection (standard xp loss + a penalty for the service and monetary cost)
This wold not take into account player resurrections which would be a little less than standard xp loss.
Death should never be free of cost (I might make the exception to level 5 and under).
Like others, it always sucked to die at the end of a night, and then have to spend a couple more hours doing a CR when really you need to get some sleep before work. :P
I could really get behind a system like this. What I would like to avoid the most is losing my corpse at night before having to log, and then logging in the next day not having a group or my friends on, only to be stuck naked with nothing to do until I can find help at some point.
If I was able to trek back to the correct zone, and have my corpse be spawned into a graveyard near the zone in with less exp loss than using a town summon option I think that is a fair compromise.
One other consession I can see being made is to have our characters spawn back at our bind with no gear, with the exception of whatever you had equiped in your hands. I'm sure it would be easy to add some fantasy lore explaning it. At least if you were holding your hand item (caster staff/melee weapons/focus item/bard instruments/ etc..) it would give you some ability to fight if needed.
I could get behind the graveyard corpse respawn idea after X amount of time has elapsed (maybe an hour). Rez would recover x% of XP based on spell ability, and the graveyard would be reduced recovery, perhaps similar to lowest level rez spell. Sadly, this also slightly contradicts my feelings in the other thread regarding corpses in a zone adding to the immersion and sense of danger in dungeons. Hard to find a good balance.
I have a hard time swallowing posts prefaced by "we no longer have the time so..." Its totally true, I don't have the same time, and its probably consistent among most of us here. However, I don't believe because I have less time that it warrants adopting a more casual design in any way. While this game may be created for us, the niche of players that exist long awaiting another game like our favorite oldschool games, I personally believe theres an even larger body of players who have yet to discover a game like Pantheon.
So I ask, what of those players? Should they not get to enjoy Pantheon the way we enjoyed our favorite MMOs all those years ago? Will changing the game to make progression a little easier for those of us with greater responsibilities really make the game more enjoyable? Should we not consider enjoying the game for what its worth in the time we have, and pass the hardcore torch to a new generation?
Just some things to consider.
Maybe for the mature audience of players, a standard old school corpse run will not be such a hinderance.
For I feel the mature audience of players will: converse on the badness of the wipe, mark the time, agree to be on the next day (or whatever day) at a specific time to proceed with the corpse run, and then log out with no qualms.
Then the next day at the appointed time, all the members wil be on or will be logging on within few minutes of said agreed upon time the night before and after initial polite greeting and socialisations, will begin with their plan for the day, i.e.- getting the corpses back.
Anyhting else is just a matter of scheduling- with a corpse rot of -what- 14 RL days? that is plenty ot time baring any extreme and non-standard RL events.
And if not, well then the team will be welcome to listen to any excuses /reasons as to why party member 4 was not able to arrive at the appointed time, and depending on the current situation of grouping of other members, determine if the group will get back together to help the one or get others as the case may be.