First of all I'd like to say kudos to the VR team on the Twitch stream! While it's obviously very early gameplay, I'm loving the direction of the game thus far. With EQ1 and Vanguard both being 2 of my top favorite MMOs of all time I've been excited about Pantheon since it was announced but had been on the fence about pledging. Your stream gave me that last little push I needed and I'm very happy to be an official supporter now!
So with that said lets talk about spells! I haven't seen much posted about how spells will be acquired or leveled up. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Personally I have never been a fan of the trainer GM who you go to and then he or she instantly just teaches you a new spell for no reason at all. I also don't like the system some games use were you just magically know a bunch of new spells because you dinged either. On the other hand I always enjoy games who offer spells as books that can be obtained from NPCs as drops.
Think about a system where class spells beyond your basic starting spells are all acquired from either quests that reward spell training books or from NPC drops directly. Most games that have used the drop method have usually had them drop pretty randomly.
What if Pantheon used a system where Warrior type mobs drop warrior skills, rogue mobs can drop rogue skills, etc. Once you acquire the book which are always level 1 you need to do "something" to learn the spell, possibly a type of down time mini game of studying the book, or have the need to visit a NPC who is a master at said spell who would quiz you on the contents of the book. Once you actually memorize it make the need to level a spell up by actually using it, getting better by practice so to speak.
What about adding a bonus to leveling a spell if someone else in the group is already a higher level at the same spell, say you're a druid who is learning to use level 1 root and there is another druid who has practiced his root spell all the way to level 20, you group up and kill stuff together and when you use your level 1 root, it levels a little faster because you have a "mentor" there with you, kind of make the players the trainers and increase social interaction.
One thing that I really miss about EQ1 was how people had reputations and as a low level Cleric I had mentors who took me under their wing, and later on I did the same. There could also be different quality spells like EQ1 ancient spells which were better versions of the original spell, make these really rare and those who have found them in the deepest darkest places of the world would be given awe and respect by their fellow players.
These are just my ramblings I'm curious what others might like the game to have as far as the system of acquiring and increasing the level of power of our spells and abilities.
Thanks VR keep up the great work!
~Imperator
Hmm, some very nice thoughts.
That gives me a few ideas to add as an additon.
Lets for with what you already said and use the "warrior" just for the sake of it already being exampled in your post.
My thoughts and ideas are the following. Lets say the warrior could optain his spells from warrior class Mobs only (and with that the relation goes for all other classes) But lets say we add a class specific consider ability that over time and skilling reveals to the Warrior the Mob Warrior fighting abilitys. These abilitys could then be "stolen/acquired/learnt" but we go abit further with this thought. So now i as a warrior have revealed my counterparts abilitys and i would very much like to be able to have that ability to. With that said what options could i have to obtain these abilitys. Maybe the mob drops a document that sets me on a hunt/quest to find a npc or to travel to a certain place. Maybe he drops the ability that offers me a quest where i would have to obtain the knowledge or gather certain things etc. Like you said this connects to what you have said just adding more depth.
I like the idea of having to skill the spell to its max potential before it is fully learnt instead of getting an update on the spell. Why not lets say "Tier" the spell and with the skills gained over time for using that spell i unlock more abilitys that add to that spell
Lets take the Druid as an example: I acquired Root finally "Root level 1" Now root level 1 is just what it is a root with "X amount of time holding the mob in place" now i have skilled this abit and it now does "X amount f time rooting + a debuff on the mob" and so on. Now we have maxed the skill and the spell offers me a option to become a master with that spell. I get sent on a journey (How and what this could be i will leave out for now) The Quest/Option whatever we want to call it is conected to the ability so it would be some with rooting i would have to find a Wise druid or forrest through books and on and on and once i have achieved that i can then (this conects to your idea to "mentoring abit") help younglings along with their skilling
I really hate it nowadys gaining spells by level and rinse/repeat/replace.
Why not give us a set amount of abilitys/spells whatever you wanna call it and they get updated like the thoughts here instead of how we have come to be acustomed to. Go to X NPC or DING! or just plain and simple drop venture into the next generation for real.
My personal opinion on this venture: Alot of people aren`t looking for next gen or don`t want things to change, but imho this is a change that brings depth to the core of the game makes it even more fun unique harder all the stuff we want. We would take months, years even to aquire a Master status in the arts we aquired over time and it would revolutionize the MMO industrie. We would have even more tighter social bonds within the community i would think.
There is nothing wrong with keeping an open mind and venturing the possibilitys to bring the gerne to the next level. We are humans and we have faults. Yes we have to go with time the technologie and we are all hooked on this we like people or dont or films or game or sports because they appel to us or not.
If films were made like they were in the 50s now....
If games still had the 2d/3d graphics they had in the 90s....
If football was still like it was in the early 1900s now....
If we didn`t invent the internet or the mobile phone or the curve/OLED TVs...
We crave advancements and the open minded don`t want to take the GOOD OLD EQ away as some might say but we sure would like to revolutionize it abit...is that a bad thing ?
So thats my thoughts for know
Yarnila, I really like the ideas you've added on!
Imagine that your tank friend tells you he heard about this Orc war chief in the mountains that is renowned in battle for his warcries and he wants to observe / challenge / fight that War chief! So, you grab a couple more trusted friends and off you go, you've just created your own "quest" to help your friend learn a new shout that he can use to AOE taunt.
I think adding more depth and realism to spell acquisition without straying too far from the formula we all know and love in the classic MMORPG would be a great thing for Pantheon. These ideas you added give room for epic quests for lore/knowledge, social interaction helping eachother find the spells we desire and would allow players the opportunity to grow their skills over time.
I'm not looking for next gen either. Or for Pantheon to reinvent the wheel, but I am looking for interesting, complex systems where effort, time and skill once again equal reward. I'm confident the VR team already have a framework of plans in place but it's fun to think about the possibilities!
~Imperator
Hi Guys,
Thought about this a bit. I agree there needs to be a change on how spells are granted or even earned for the matter. I play casters and healers in other games and the trend has been getting worse on the aspect of getting to a level and you get a raft of new spells or skills just for leveling.
Threw some thoughts down.
Wonder if spells should be broken up by tiers. Basic spells can be acquired in the normal or current mechanic of leveling. That way folks don’t get upset when they can’t get or have to work for the more advanced spells. Intermediate level spells might follow the line of extra training or class specific tasks. I think Enchanters had this in EQ. Advanced spells for quest based or maybe crafted to give the depth for the class. A good example is the AOE type spells. These are what I would consider very powerful and imho should take time and training to use.
Also aligning this with a scribing type combination might be good.
Just some ideas. I know there are various forms of this in other games but they all seem to fall flat.
Ox
I love the thought of finding spells rather than learning from trainers and/or getting the spells upon leveling.
An addition I would love to see to that is that spells need to be practiced. Just because you find a spell and have it in your book doesn't mean that you can cast it effectively or at all. My mage will probably fizzle and backfire any spells he hasn't known for very long. My intellegence is probably too low to even grasp what this spell does yet! Perhaps some spells are really hard and could actually kill your character if he attempted it! But the fun thing is, you wouldn't know that until you messed with that spell hmmm never seen that in a game haha.
I love to play a pure mage, and really hope that this game gives us the ability to mold and form our character. Not every mage casts fireball and lightning sheesh. Let's have something different. You see a mage and you never know what will happen. Perhaps that mage is awesome at freezing an enemy, and then electrocutes them with a shocking touch (because that would do more damage on a frozen enemy)...
I hope we can improve our magic with practice and time. Perhaps there are books and lore in the world that improves our intelligence and chosen school of magic. Wizards love to learn and become more powerful as they read and explore.
OP has many good ideas.
However I think this :
1. I really dislike games where you get automatically all spells needed when you level up. It should instead be that you don't get them instantly. It's worth waiting on something good...
A) Do so we need to go to our trainers instead to train new skills. There should be a reason to travel back to the town.
B) You need to buy your spell scrolls from a merchant as in EQ which I thought was really fun... to find the merchant (which was sometimes hidden) and buy the scrolls.
2. Some scrolls (spells) should be created by you as in EQ I hope by collecting some ingrediences, but in higher levels. I thought it was an interresting system in EQ. These ingrediences could be dropped by the class you are (similar to OP thoughts).
For example: orc shaman drops ingrediences for shaman scrolls
Uncommon ingrediences can be dropped by boss mobs (group encounter) and rare by raid mobs.
3. Scrolls (spells), not just ingrediences, can be also dropped by bosses and raid mobs as in EQ.
4. Most important!!! It's really important that players don't feel everything is to random, because to much random factor will really hurt the game and will not make the game so fun. For example if a scroll is dropped every 100 times. This means it's pointless to even think about camping the mob. Compare this to when it's dropped every 2 to 4 times for a named boss. Then you feel you have a chance getting the scroll, ingredience or whatever.
Baldrith Posted:
I love to play a pure mage, and really hope that this game gives us the ability to mold and form our character. Not every mage casts fireball and lightning sheesh. Let's have something different. You see a mage and you never know what will happen. Perhaps that mage is awesome at freezing an enemy, and then electrocutes them with a shocking touch (because that would do more damage on a frozen enemy)...
Oh I really like this idea. Oh look there is a Fire Mage (all decked out ins fire regalia) I can think of GW2 on that one. Still, this would be great. Adds that in game tension of not knowing what your getting into.
Ox
Elmberry said:
OP has many good ideas.
However I think this :
1. I really dislike games where you get automatically all spells needed when you level up. It should instead be that you don't get them instantly. It's worth waiting on something good...
A) Do so we need to go to our trainers instead to train new skills. There should be a reason to travel back to the town.
B) You need to buy your spell scrolls from a merchant as in EQ which I thought was really fun... to located the merchant (which was sometimes hidden) and buy the scrolls.
2. Some scrolls (spells) should be created by you as in EQ I hope by collecting some ingrediences, but in higher levels. I thought it was an interresting system in EQ. These ingrediences could be dropped by the class you are (similar to OP thoughts).
For example: orc shaman drops ingrediences for shaman scrolls
Uncommon ingrediences can be dropped by boss mobs (group encounter) and rare by raid mobs.
3. Scrolls (spells), not just ingrediences, can be also dropped by bosses and raid mobs as in EQ.
4. Most important!!! It's really important that players don't feel everything is to random, because to much random factor will really hurt the game and will not make the game so fun. For example if a scroll is dropped every 100 times. This means it's pointless to even think about camping the mob. Compare this to when it's dropped every 2 to 4 times for a named boss. Then you feel you have a chance getting the scroll or ingredience.
I completely agree on the point 1. It’s a tired and lazy deployment. I think that a trainer is a good idea and to add to that maybe a mage tower or magic or caster tower. Finding merchants was a great time and even better when you had to traverse the countryside to get to another city or location.
Point 2 is good also. I think there needs to be a creation process for a spell compendium and then you add to it as your skills improve. I am on the fence on the drops. I have never been a fan of camping mobs. In the early days it was not to bad but now I am no so sure. The drop process may need a look. Good idea on the specific type of mob and what your going after.
Point 3 is a great idea. If you are on a quest or on a random event that should be in the mix.
Point 4. WoW comes to mind here. Endless dungeon runs to get a cloak or weapon is not my idea of a good time. If the dungeon was enormous and you had to search for something that is another aspect. Mob drops might be something they can code by type for specific things. I am sure it can be done but will it fall in to the game model. Great point though.
I don’t think I know what OP is other than over powered LOL
Ox
I totally agree that simply getting spells/abilities for leveling up is not the right way. On the other hand, I also don't want to see a system with too much randomness for spell acquisition. Its annoying to outlevel a spells usefulness :/
I quite liked the way things worked in Ultima IX: You got spell scrolls as drops from mobs (lower ranks fairly common but higher rank spells were rare). These scrolls could either be used directly (one time, scroll used up), or they could be scribed into your book...but to scribe the spells you required extra reagents (roots, mushrooms, sulfurous ash etc). These could be somewhat uncommon as well. Overall it made me feel more like a "real" mage, not only looking for spell scrolls, but always for reagents too. And you only could scribe spells at certain magic circles.
These are all good ideas. I would still like to see where you could get a basic spell from a vendor/trainer. I would also love that you could get a drop from a mob that would upgrade your spell to something stronger or better from the standard. I also liked what Sarim said about Ulitima that you needed ingredients to complete the spell. That would make it exciting to finally get the spell completed.
Elmberry said:OP has many good ideas.
However I think this :
1. I really dislike games where you get automatically all spells needed when you level up. It should instead be that you don't get them instantly. It's worth waiting on something good...
A) Do so we need to go to our trainers instead to train new skills. There should be a reason to travel back to the town.
B) You need to buy your spell scrolls from a merchant as in EQ which I thought was really fun... to find the merchant (which was sometimes hidden) and buy the scrolls.
2. Some scrolls (spells) should be created by you as in EQ I hope by collecting some ingrediences, but in higher levels. I thought it was an interresting system in EQ. These ingrediences could be dropped by the class you are (similar to OP thoughts).
For example: orc shaman drops ingrediences for shaman scrolls
Uncommon ingrediences can be dropped by boss mobs (group encounter) and rare by raid mobs.
3. Scrolls (spells), not just ingrediences, can be also dropped by bosses and raid mobs as in EQ.
4. Most important!!! It's really important that players don't feel everything is to random, because to much random factor will really hurt the game and will not make the game so fun. For example if a scroll is dropped every 100 times. This means it's pointless to even think about camping the mob. Compare this to when it's dropped every 2 to 4 times for a named boss. Then you feel you have a chance getting the scroll, ingredience or whatever.
Great points Elmberry,
~Imperator
Raptorsbane said:Elmberry said:OP has many good ideas.
However I think this :
1. I really dislike games where you get automatically all spells needed when you level up. It should instead be that you don't get them instantly. It's worth waiting on something good...
A) Do so we need to go to our trainers instead to train new skills. There should be a reason to travel back to the town.
B) You need to buy your spell scrolls from a merchant as in EQ which I thought was really fun... to find the merchant (which was sometimes hidden) and buy the scrolls.
2. Some scrolls (spells) should be created by you as in EQ I hope by collecting some ingrediences, but in higher levels. I thought it was an interresting system in EQ. These ingrediences could be dropped by the class you are (similar to OP thoughts).
For example: orc shaman drops ingrediences for shaman scrolls
Uncommon ingrediences can be dropped by boss mobs (group encounter) and rare by raid mobs.
3. Scrolls (spells), not just ingrediences, can be also dropped by bosses and raid mobs as in EQ.
4. Most important!!! It's really important that players don't feel everything is to random, because to much random factor will really hurt the game and will not make the game so fun. For example if a scroll is dropped every 100 times. This means it's pointless to even think about camping the mob. Compare this to when it's dropped every 2 to 4 times for a named boss. Then you feel you have a chance getting the scroll, ingredience or whatever.
Great points Elmberry,
- I agree we should need reasons to go back to town and I like having trainers as kind of an NPC your character looks up to and learns from especially at early levels, I just dislike having them 100% teach all of the new spells for no reason other than we hit the magic level so our character deserves that spell immediately.
- ~Speaking of towns, I hope they find a way to make all race's home cities continue to be active places, it seems like in every MMORPG there ends up being a central place that everyone ends up congregating in and the rest of the cities are ghost towns. Think Freeport vs Qeynos or Iron Forge vs Darnassus. Maybe Pantheon could have some type of incentive to return to your racial home city, a buff, trade bonus? Maybe have a trade bonus in cities not of your own race? Maybe a rotating bonus that shifts players from city to city every few week(s). I just don't want to see us all clustered in the Human capital and the beautiful Halfling capital lies empty 24/7 just because it's a little out of the way or because the auction house is placed 10 steps farther from the front gate so it's not the optimal place to be. I know a lot of people want freedom so it should always be an option to cluster in one city if they choose, but I hope some effort is made to motivate (but not require) players to move around the world. Once a central, neutral or overly convenient city is introduced to an MMORPG, the rest of the cities become nearly pointless.
- Buying some spells from hidden or rare vendors would be fun, I was always dumpster diving through back ally merchant's inventories in EQ1 and it was always fun hitting the jackpot and finding a rare spell.
- Having to craft your spell scrolls would be an interesting route, for example a Mage starting with a weak starter fireball spell could use it and skill it up to 20. Your trainer takes notice that you are getting powerful with it and suggests you might be able to handle an aoe fireball, and points you in the direction of what reagents you might need in order to craft the scroll. Think of a Jedi apprentice needing to craft their own light saber, sure the master could just give them one but it's part of the journey to make their very own.
- I know what you mean about randomness, I remember the pearl shards in skyfire for my Cleric epic, spending days without the dang things dropping. My guild would cycle people in and out to help kill all day. There's so many other instances of random drops that can be frustrating but sooo rewarding once you get that item. I like what Yarnila said earlier about having the ability to steal the basic spell from the mob kind of blue mage style.Possibly it could be a con system, once the player reaches 100% affinity with the mob from fighting / observing they would be able to learn the ability/spell that the mob uses. What if you need to gain affinity for the spell by combating npcs that cast it, once your character has a grasp on what they are seeing, they could then visit their trainer and ask about it, then the trainer could teach the spell, point the player in the direction of where they could learn the spell or give them guidance on how to craft the spell.
~Imperator
Define con system Rap. Not sure I know what that is. It’s a learning experience here too. Love this. Both you two have great ideas here. The ability to actually grow with your character as your skills grow is badly needed. Imagine that learning your skills. Maybe in time we could get a hybrid spell systems where you could create new types of spells based on existing skill sets. Example might be a lightning bolt with a hint of fire damage. I can think of a bunch like that. I would not be a too much of a stretch on the engine to do these.
Ideas-o-plenty!!!
Ox
I recall in vanilla EQ it being just a challenge to get to the levels in order to get new spells, anyone remember hell levels??? and then you didn't always get a more powerful spells across the board like todays MMOs. They staggered the spells so you would get a number of utility spells or a certain 'line' (aka; healing, buff, DoT, etc) of spells might be upgraded, but not all your level spells.
They also made it so you did have to venture into other areas of the game; not all city vendors carried said spell, so off you go to find what vendor did have it and at what location. This all being before lvl 20 as well, then it got hard haha. All sorts of skills where needed for higher level spells (brewing as an example) sometimes and reagents, it got hard and also rewarding
Then in turn, you have to be able to afford to purchase your spells, and at lower levels, this becomes a skill in and of itself in budgeting your loot... choosing new weapon, armor, or a newer spell.
It really was simply a relief sometimes in order to be able to have some or your spells in one spot at earlier stages to be honest.
Not to worry, it will be a challenge in Pantheon :)
I am all for the reagents mechanic ala UO, that was interesting, but sometimes a real PIA nor always fun. Before going out to fight, check your reagents bag! If you don't have enough, go spend more plat! lol. So this would also have to be factored into the economies and then would it be provided by players only or vendors?
There is also a new thing in the Pantheon spell book underneath the spells you learn ... have to look it up and edit this post, but for sure they have some new twist on all this.. brb
Edit: Yup, I thought I remembered reading something about this. There are going to be primary spells and trancendant spells in the living codex https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/living_codex/
"Once scribed, players will be able to memorize a total of 10 abilities, mixing both Essential and Transcendent abilities as desired. Once memorized, players will be able to place these abilities on their Ability Bar, giving them full access to their use."
- Not sure if this means we only get 10 primary abilities throughout our whole time playing the class or what??
"The accompanying image shows the Transcendent section of the Living Codex, where Prime Scroll abilities will be scribed. The Prime Scroll will only fill the top portion of each page; underneath, there will be 3 empty sections that the player can mark with special items which will further enhance the primary ability. "
"The first section of the Codex, labeled "Essential", will contain the host of standard abilities that characters can naturally train throughout their lifetime. However, in Pantheon, many of the most powerful and exotic abilities can only be found out in the wilds of Terminus: from heavily guarded treasure vaults, dangerous enemies and unimaginable locations"
- I found this to be preatty interesting, about applying a signet of synergy...
"Applying a Signet of Synergy to an ability will unlock different class-specific synergy effects that can be used in combination with synergy effects from other classes, sometimes to awesome effect. However, the Primary Scroll ability must be capable of synergy effects, not all will be."
Neumcy
I liked EQs spell system. In the early economy you simply could not afford all of your spells. Then later on you basically had to quest for them, if only via making a long trip to the vendor that had them, and eventually doing things like Juggs to get the drop only ones. A Gnome or Erudite enchanter had a long dangerous trip to get their pets. The problem with EQ spells early on was the semi broken rune crafting system. Once that got fleshed out, it was okay.
I like the idea of more spells being available via quests and mob drops. I think there should be a difference between a level 30 wizard who has explored several dungeons and one who has power-leveled in one area.
I'm in favour of this throughout the game in all level ranges and classes. This encourages exploring and gives a character more goals than just the experience bar. Make spells and other abilities only obtainable in specific areas of the world. Perhaps certain races are more known for certain spells and abilities and that part of the world is where you will find them.
I don't think it would be bad if the majority of spells and skills were obtained this way. Who cares what level you are if you only have lower level spells. If it took days to reach the next level that would be fine. Because you were busy filling up your spell book in the meantime.