Thanks for the post Jarretyn
We all have our perfect game and I think their are a lot of games already how you seem to like them. I however much prefer the old style of how this game looks and feels atm and I would much prefer it to be like the old eq in many many ways.
Games are all about how you enjoy them and I can honestly say if they changed Pantheon to more how you would like it then I would not play it either, but that's just my prefference.
Regards
Hi Jarretyn
I know you probably feel like you got attacked for this post. You raise a valid concern. It all comes down to what YOU want out of a game. Unfortunately a MMO can't please everyone. If you try to please everyone you will end up with a terrible game.
The main points that attracted me to Pantheon was that it was being designed for the social, group centric player. The players that want consequences. The players that want to work hard for their rewards. That is not going to please everyone. In fact, a lot of them will hate it. Brad and his team seem ok with that, and I love that.
I played a cleric in the original EQ. It was hard, torturous, frustrating, and I LOVED every minute of it! While I did sit A LOT in EQ, I never faced a wall. I was popping up so much to heal that I was as much a part of the action as anyone. When I reached level 50 on that cleric, I seriously yelled so loud it scared the crap outta my husband. I since have never felt like I have accomplished something that awesome in a game.
I want that feeling again. I am willing to pay for that, pledge for that. But that is me, what "I" want out of a game. There are a lot of MMO players who feel like me, and that is most of the community here.
sdcord said:Just throwing this out there, It would be nice if someone took the Twitch video and broke it down frame by frame commenting on the combat interactions, explaining exactly what is going on.
We the Voices of Terminus will glady do this ! DALINSIA ?! Get to it we have a job to do !
I would also say to the OP this thread itself shuld tell you this is the kind of game people should want to play. You have a community with differing views and ideas but respectfully responded to your question. This kind of question in WoW would have been met with stupidity, cruelness and nothing useful.
Pantheon with be a gtreat team game and this community is already showing that team atmosphere.
Xanier
Xanier said:I would also say to the OP this thread itself shuld tell you this is the kind of game people should want to play. You have a community with differing views and ideas but respectfully responded to your question. This kind of question in WoW would have been met with stupidity, cruelness and nothing useful.
Pantheon with be a gtreat team game and this community is already showing that team atmosphere.
Xanier
The toxic communities are what has really kept me from playing a lot of these modern games. That is the one thing you would rarely see pre-WoW games. A game like Pantheon where reputation means something will hopefully weed those types out...
Jarretyn said:I guess we all have different meanings of depth.
I personally thought Everquest was a very simple game. Get a group. Park at a spot. Pull mobs to you. Rinse and repeat. I raided in Everquest as well. All I did was sat facing a wall, doing complete heal chains the entire time. Not sure how that qualifies as "deep".
I suppose by depth I mean other things to do in game beyond just that. Everquest 2 had a variety of things to do in game, and whether people thought it was a good game or not, I enjoyed that depth of play. Whether it was questing, raiding, collections, crafting, working on my house or guild hall, etc. I really don't care to rehash the past, and just log in to pull mobs to me as I sit immobile.
But as I said, if that is what this game is meant to be, so be it. Not my cup of tea anymore.
To those that replied politely, thank you.
Jarretyn said:I guess we all have different meanings of depth.
I personally thought Everquest was a very simple game. Get a group. Park at a spot. Pull mobs to you. Rinse and repeat. I raided in Everquest as well. All I did was sat facing a wall, doing complete heal chains the entire time. Not sure how that qualifies as "deep".
I suppose by depth I mean other things to do in game beyond just that. Everquest 2 had a variety of things to do in game, and whether people thought it was a good game or not, I enjoyed that depth of play. Whether it was questing, raiding, collections, crafting, working on my house or guild hall, etc. I really don't care to rehash the past, and just log in to pull mobs to me as I sit immobile.
But as I said, if that is what this game is meant to be, so be it. Not my cup of tea anymore.
To those that replied politely, thank you.
Hi Jarretyn,
Thanks for sharing. I hope the passionate nature of some of the other posts has not scared you away.
I understand what you mean in your post and I am not trying to argue with it. I just wanted to clarify something. I think you are mixing up depth with breadth. You are right in that Everquest really was a simple game compared to its competeitors at the time. It was basically just a social combat simulator (with awesome dungeons!!!) when it was first released. The combat system, though, was extremely deep and intricate. Ultimate Online, by comparison, used simple systems for combat but had a great deal of systems in place for the players to make use of. Both games were exciting to play. One focused on the depth of its one main system and the other focused on a feature-rich environment made up of simple systems. One is deep and the other is broad.
It is very easy to say "Well I want a game that it is both broad AND deep!!!" Unfortunately, such a statement is not rooted in reality. It is very difficult to create a single system with a large amount of depth, let alone multiple deep systems. The deeper they get, the more potenital there is for them to cause unitended issues when interacting with the other deep systems. This makes the project hard to support, hard to balance and difficult to expand. I believe the only way to develop a game that is both broad and deep is to do it over time. You focus on making one or two really great deep systems and then add a new deep system every so often to make the game more rich and exciting over time. History in this industry has shown us that if you try and do both at the same time right from the beginning, the project will become very expensive and take a very long time to finish (if it gets finished at all).
(Just to be clear, this idea is not my own. I read it in an article within Game Developer Magazine a few years ago. I can find the source if anyone is interested in reading the whole article.)
I still fail to understand why a new game needs to be different then EQ.
You don't go out and change how tennis works, or football, or whatever else, right? So why change anything about a formula so many people loved and still miss? Upgrade the graphics and we are set. Personally don't need anything else and if others do, there is HUNDREDS of other MMOs that do change some, more or even all about EQ. Pick your sport and stick to it. If you dislike it after a while it wasn't the right choice, so choose again.
Rattenmann said:I still fail to understand why a new game needs to be different then EQ.
You don't go out and change how tennis works, or football, or whatever else, right? So why change anything about a formula so many people loved and still miss? Upgrade the graphics and we are set. Personally don't need anything else and if others do, there is HUNDREDS of other MMOs that do change some, more or even all about EQ. Pick your sport and stick to it. If you dislike it after a while it wasn't the right choice, so choose again.
Oh but the tennis or football/soccer what is played today WAS changed from earlier tennis or football. The tennis and football we know now are much more refined. So you won't play it with your hands, but a racket nowadays. It's also a good thing people use a leather ball now and not sheep's head. Oh and that there are rules now, also a good thing. Players for example won't wear weapons to struck their opponent with them.
It was said many times that Pantheon is NOT Everquest. Nor is it Vanguard. It is a game in its own right, with bits from both Everquest and Vanguard, but plenty of new things, things that could not be made possible earlier. I still fail to understand why people won't keep an open mind in a new game and just want another.
Edit: to stick with your example, the football and tennis what is played NOW and what you don't want to see changed because it is complete, is where Pantheon is heading. Everquest was more the stick-pointy things-into-opposite-team-members-football, the Normans for example played. Thank god for today's football, it is evolved, just like Pantheon will be: discarding things which were less than optimal. Undoubtedly there were many people centuries ago who grumbled at this "modern" football with the new rules. For exemple when they used goal posts for the first time *gasp* who needs this? Football was great the way it was *grumble grumble*.. The then-new this and that. Don't be the grumpy Norman! :)
Duffy said:Rattenmann said:I still fail to understand why a new game needs to be different then EQ.
You don't go out and change how tennis works, or football, or whatever else, right? So why change anything about a formula so many people loved and still miss? Upgrade the graphics and we are set. Personally don't need anything else and if others do, there is HUNDREDS of other MMOs that do change some, more or even all about EQ. Pick your sport and stick to it. If you dislike it after a while it wasn't the right choice, so choose again.
Oh but the tennis or football/soccer what is played today WAS changed from earlier tennis or football. The tennis and football we know now are much more refined. So you won't play it with your hands, but a racket nowadays. It's also a good thing people use a leather ball now and not sheep's head. Oh and that there are rules now, also a good thing. Players for example won't wear weapons to struck their opponent with them.
It was said many times that Pantheon is NOT Everquest. Nor is it Vanguard. It is a game in its own right, with bits from both Everquest and Vanguard, but plenty of new things, things that could not be made possible earlier. I still fail to understand why people won't keep an open mind in a new game and just want another.
Edit: to stick with your example, the football and tennis what is played NOW and what you don't want to see changed because it is complete, is where Pantheon is heading. Everquest was more the stick-pointy things-into-opposite-team-members-football, the Normans for example played. Thank god for today's football, it is evolved, just like Pantheon will be: discarding things which were less than optimal. Undoubtedly there were many people centuries ago who grumbled at this "modern" football with the new rules. For exemple when they used goal posts for the first time *gasp* who needs this? Football was great the way it was *grumble grumble*.. The then-new this and that. Don't be the grumpy Norman! :)
Well, exactly what i said actually. I just missed to mention the obvious.
Sports IMPROVED what was there. They did not CHANGE the sport itself tho.
That is exactly what i want out of pantheon. Improve the graphics from EQ. Refine the rules about meaningful quests. Simply don't change the game, improve it. :)
Liav said:Krixus said:He was making an analogy. Attack the literal accuracy of it, but his point was not difficult to understand.
"Let's change the game, but not change the game at the same time."
This is not an analogy, it's just contradictory weirdness.
You're just being daft. You can make changes on such a scale that it doesn't fundamentally alter something.
I thought sports was actually a good analogy to be honest. Simply because both sports and a games are just a hobby you do because you enjoy them for what they are.
Stuff changed to improve what was there,.. to fine tune it. But the sport itself never changed to something fundamentally else. Tennis never suddenly changed to use paint guns and 50 players. MMOs did exactly that. They moved from community driven games with goals for every skill level,... to solo driven games with goals that are reached by everyone after a few 1hour/week play sessions without ever having to talk to any other person.
Everquest did not have achievement popups, but you stood there in AWE if you saw some dude swinging his Epic 1.0 weapon. You knew what he went trough and how many weeks / months he spend.
Nowadays you get the following achievement delivered as a popup:
First step!
You just moved your right leg infront of the left. You did a whole step without falling over.
You are so amazing and will clearly save the world from all the evil there is. You Sir are the choosen one!
The sad part about this: All the new players will never understand what a true achievement feels like in a game. Not unless Pantheon can bring it back. And 100% not if VR changes too much from the original formula which included community, difficulty and less entitlement.
Ok Rattenmann, but nobody, literally nobody here wants Pantheon changed to something fundamentally else. Everyone here wants the formula "community, difficulty and less entitlement". But that is not the same as saying "I want Everquest! Nothing else! No need for something else!"
And as you put it just some paragraphs ago (and in other threads) you don't want to have something polished or changed. You want nothing else but Everquest. With better graphics. It's like saying, I want to play tennis like it was centuries ago, I want to play it with my hands, just like they did then, these filthy rackets are not needed, they water the sport down! Just compare the palm with these huge rackets, how easy is it to hit the ball with that? So no modern rules, please. Just the short skirts (better graphics) please!
The truth is, these games changed a LOT of the centuries and I am very much mistaken if you would even even recognize them as modern "tennis" or "football". So I don't know if this example was a good one to let me understand why you would want a pure "nothing but Everquest, please!" Everquest was a light in the darkness, it was the first of the "modern" MMOs. But that doesn't mean it was best in everything it did. God I know I sound like a crazy fangirl, but I think Pantheon will do just fine and it will deliver. It just won't be a 1:1 transition of Everquest.
It would be hard to list everything that is ok for me and counts as a minor change i would accept. Saying "EQ with upgraded graphics" simply is the easiest way to get the point across without writing a novel each time. If a change is too big can also be pretty dependent on other factors. So it is near impossible to "list" all that is ok for me, so i simply say "All i want is EQ with better graphics". I never said i would not accept anything else tho and that would be false anyways. I do accept quite a few changes as long as they don't change the basic concept.
I can however voice my opinion on changes that definitly DO go too far for me. So i guess we are the same page.
Of course, Rattenmann. Everybody should voice everything he or she is concerned about. I just wished especially the Everquest die-hards would be a bit more specific about what exactly they fear with something. What they fear would happen.
Some think that it's a valid argument by simply saying: it wasn't in Everquest, ergo it is not needed in Pantheon (duh). Concluded by: 'if you find [topic x] good or would love to have it in Pantheon, if said topic x wasn't in Everquest, go play something else. Go back to your wow dream kiddy game and don't spoil it for the rest of us'. I am not talking about you here, just the general attitude some have.
For me, that's like saying to a top athlete tennis player, go use the palm of your hands and not your fancy racket. Reason: back then people didn't have fancy rackets either. You sissie.
He'd boggle. And so do I whenever I hear this "argument" 'it wasn't in Everquest, so no need to have it here'. (I am not saying I am a top gamer, I just wanted to get on with the exemplification)
As for me if I were to explain being an old school eq'er.
If a game wishes to be an old school game and be closer to the old days of everquest etc as this game has said it would be. Then changing the format is extremely hard otherwise its just another mmo trying to add something different that in the end always ends up the same as the rest anyway.
I know people want something new but how can you have the old if you want everything changed. plenty of mmo's out there, sooo many. It would be very hard to change too much and call it classic.
I would agree more with Rattenmann and say if it is meant to be close to old eq then leave it that way. if you all want an inovation look to the 100 mmo's coming out next week (you know what I mean)
@Rattenmann "All i want is EQ with better graphics". I never said i would not accept anything else tho and that would be false anyways. I do accept quite a few changes as long as they don't change the basic concept." I am in agreement
Regards and respect to all
A quick edit as an after thought.
I can't understand why some people like the film "Sharknado" and they have made 4 of them. But we all have our likes and dislikes and all are our own choices and not always meant to be understood or downtrodden buy others. I like this, Others like that. it's all good..