I think one of the unspoken and unrecognized things that EQ did to make it really immersive was the parallels to the real world.
In the real world, the world has certain things about it that can't change. We are all going to die. It has things that aren't fair like earthquakes, tornadoes, cancer.
We don't understand those and we gnash our teeth at the unfairness of it. But they don't change. We also don't understand these things and our God doesn't answer us directly. We have to live this life with what we're given and without explanation.
That's what EQ did. Think about it:
Back then, we had this mysterious world to live in. Verant/SOE was like God - they created the world. We appealed to them when things seemed unfair and we cursed them when they didn't respond. But what made the world immersive was that they did NOT answer. They did not waiver. The world was the way it was. It didn't change based upon our complaints. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but one HUGE mistake that everyone in the genre is making is to cowtow to the whims and whines of the players. The players have a feeling that THEY are creating the universe.
In EQ we never felt that way - we didn't get any say. We were residents, not creators.
That's important to make an immersive world feel truly REAL - like there is a higher power, independent of us and that we are just residents in their world.
And there was no explanation. Let the player-base speculate and make wild guess how to spawn Quillmane or what the respawn timer is on Gore or whether a slime-encrusted earring still drops. Don't tell them.
And while you are at it......have things in the game with no explanation. Don't try to make everything obvious. Have things in the game that might or might not mean something. Leave it entirely up to the players to figure out......walk through a forest and find a dented goblet......maybe it's junk....maybe it's an important quest trigger.....who knows.......don't TELL US.
Watch the "Extra Credits" channel on Youtube for great philosophical discussions about this. Every single one on MMORPG contend, design, lore, questing, risk-vs-reward, etcetera is exactly everything you're touting.
EQ was a reimaging of Muds(Multi User Dungeons). For example CircleMud being maintained here, tbamud.com 4000 for a player version, or tbamud.com 9091 for builder academy. Need a client like Mudlet to connect.
I agree with what you said. Mysteries are key
I agree that Brad & Co. should create the world in the way they want, and then should stick to their decisions (they already said they'll listen to feedback during alpha/beta, but once the game releases, its core should stay what it is then).
However I very much disagree that the devs should never answer questions. IMO there's nothing better but regular communication between players and devs. One of the things you keep seeing in pretty much every game out there: "It was much better in the beta, when devs communicated, now that the game's live they never talk to us". Please devs, keep up the communication. Even if its just a simple acknowledgement of a bug, or a tantalising "Its working as intended!" ;)
Speaking of communication: I really think Kilsin does an awesome job of being present and talking to us now. I really hope he will keep this up once the game goes alpha/beta/live, or that we'll at least get someone who can do half as good a job.
(btw. perhaps an interesting side question: What is your favorite way for the devs to communicate with the players? For me its clearly the forums, but maybe others prefer twitter/facebook etc?)
/Agree OP.
Both the sense of mystery and realism were a huge part of what made EQ so compelling to me. The random nature of things, the fact you could attack anything, the fact that it took time to heal, the need for other players, the need to prepare yourself by binding in a nearby city before adventuring... big things, little things, mostly put away for a more predictable, convenient design.
In many ways, EQ was the first online survival game. Those games have become so popular lately, and I believe it was for many of the same reasons that we loved EQ. The unpredictable and harsh nature of the game.
I realize those who weren't there may look back and think, "but it was just a static game." While that was true, there were just enough variables in place to keep things exciting. Maybe it was a random high level mob patrolling a zone or happening by chance on an ultra rare spawn. Maybe it was an area where mobs were particularly resistant to magic. Though you were in a popular "group" dungeon, sometimes the content required more than a group. Some raid bosses were killable with 20. Others took 50. Others were nearly unkillable. These things gave you the feeling that, "who knows what is out there? What might we discover tomorrow?"
Not sure I agree with the devs never communicating with the player base is a good thing. I agree that the devs should never tell the player base how to play the game but they certainly should communicate if something is not working as intended or people are exploiting the game. That way the mystery remains and the game can be challenging but for important aspects of the game players still feel like there is someone listening to them when they report things that are not working or that they think need changing based on actual testing.
I certainly don't want the devs to pay much attention to people who want an easy mode game but at the same time they need to listen to bug reports and at least say they are working on a fix.
fazool said:Have things in the game that might or might not mean something. Leave it entirely up to the players to figure out......walk through a forest and find a dented goblet......maybe it's junk....maybe it's an important quest trigger.....who knows.......don't TELL US.
I love the chessboard in Butcherblock Mountains! I mean who made that? Who played there? What were the stakes? I always wondered that.
I will say this, I remember having the first pair of mino hero shackles and destroying them after a few weeks, only to be quite angry when the hero bracer quest was implemented a month later. Incomplete things like that in EQ added some mystery, but also were frustrating. I'm not saying everything has to be there for a specific reason, but partially implemented stuff can stink.
Aena said:fazool said:Have things in the game that might or might not mean something. Leave it entirely up to the players to figure out......walk through a forest and find a dented goblet......maybe it's junk....maybe it's an important quest trigger.....who knows.......don't TELL US.
I love the chessboard in Butcherblock Mountains! I mean who made that? Who played there? What were the stakes? I always wondered that.
Lots of memories there.
Krixus said:I will say this, I remember having the first pair of mino hero shackles and destroying them after a few weeks, only to be quite angry when the hero bracer quest was implemented a month later. Incomplete things like that in EQ added some mystery, but also were frustrating. I'm not saying everything has to be there for a specific reason, but partially implemented stuff can stink.
Sounds like someone should have been a hoarder... pretty sure I still have un-usuable /no drop items in my banks on EQ.
All joking aside, I get your point though, but I'd rather have some content that is unfinished for reasons I suggested in the future expansions - so older zones can be expanded/re-used in future expansions versus always adding completely new zones/continents to spread players further apart.
Raidan said:Krixus said:I will say this, I remember having the first pair of mino hero shackles and destroying them after a few weeks, only to be quite angry when the hero bracer quest was implemented a month later. Incomplete things like that in EQ added some mystery, but also were frustrating. I'm not saying everything has to be there for a specific reason, but partially implemented stuff can stink.
Sounds like someone should have been a hoarder... pretty sure I still have un-usuable /no drop items in my banks on EQ.
All joking aside, I get your point though, but I'd rather have some content that is unfinished for reasons I suggested in the future expansions - so older zones can be expanded/re-used in future expansions versus always adding completely new zones/continents to spread players further apart.
This I do agree with. Reusing and upgrading older content instead of making completely new content all the time that renders older content obsolete is the way to go. I love it when new stuff is added to old zones that I used to enjoy. In EQ there are zones that people never go to anymore and I find that sad especially as some of those zones are extremely cool. New players miss out on all the cool stuff that is in the game because no one even considers the older zones.
And while you are at it......have things in the game with no explanation. Don't try to make everything obvious. Have things in the game that might or might not mean something. Leave it entirely up to the players to figure out......walk through a forest and find a dented goblet......maybe it's junk....maybe it's an important quest trigger.....who knows.......don't TELL US.
Yeah, figuring sh*t out was part of the game. I'm wrestling with "going back" to that style now. It might be cool, it might be frustrating as hell. I’ve been playing MMOs with obnoxious little “!” over quest-givers for so long now, it might actually affect how I view this retro-style questing. Of course, I’ll need to dive in and actually play the game to find out – no way of knowing how cold the water is until you jump in the lake.
Cowtowing to the whims and whines of players is one of the roots of all evil.
If the game world is going to be changed according to player whims and whines, it doesn't have any stability, it does not have any more solid reality than a dream, a temporary figment of imagination.
One of the main things that makes immersion is the feeling that the game world is real, and one of central parts of that is that the world is solid and stable, unyielding, that it can and will punish mistakes. Lose that feeling, and you lose interest - why spend a year building up a guild to high-end raid level, when it's easier to whine and demand and get the content lowered down to your level? But then there is no feeling of accomplishing anything worthwhile. You just projected a figment of dream and grasped it, and its value may change again tomorrow.
In the end, in such a world, nobody would care about anything. And indeed, we saw so many MMORPGS lose people after the initial few months.
Aethor said:Cowtowing to the whims and whines of players is one of the roots of all evil.
If the game world is going to be changed according to player whims and whines, it doesn't have any stability, it does not have any more solid reality than a dream, a temporary figment of imagination.
One of the main things that makes immersion is the feeling that the game world is real, and one of central parts of that is that the world is solid and stable, unyielding, that it can and will punish mistakes. Lose that feeling, and you lose interest - why spend a year building up a guild to high-end raid level, when it's easier to whine and demand and get the content lowered down to your level? But then there is no feeling of accomplishing anything worthwhile. You just projected a figment of dream and grasped it, and its value may change again tomorrow.
In the end, in such a world, nobody would care about anything. And indeed, we saw so many MMORPGS lose people after the initial few months.
Non-sequitur.
I never see players whining for content to be made easier. Very often the content is just overtuned to the point that it's unkillable, in which case have the "difficulty" lowered is a reasonable demand if you actually want anyone to get anything done.
Pretending like every single piece of content is appropriately balanced is extremely naive. Even after several iterations I don't think it's mathematically possible to say that a given piece of content is perfectly balanced, or if perfectly balanced content is even achievable.
fazool said:We also don't understand these things and our God doesn't answer us directly. We have to live this life with what we're given and without explanation.
Back then, we had this mysterious world to live in. Verant/SOE was like God - they created the world. We appealed to them when things seemed unfair and we cursed them when they didn't respond. But what made the world immersive was that they did NOT answer. They did not waiver. The world was the way it was. It didn't change based upon our complaints.
We were residents, not creators.
With this in mind I always thought that being a GM was like, cool in that you could create a monster and put it in game, or hijack an NPC and constructively ( or deconstructively) play with PC's because you know all the coding and inner secrets.
I always thought it was a perk to the job. Once everything was completed, you got to rake in a paycheck and...play. regular, or Uber. Of cource the design would need to be approved by the head designer/owner/creator I mean you could not crete something invulnerable.
Edit to clarify: Like GM's could create a dragon, and then play the dragon in game against the players. Or take over an NPC and play it against the players. Or be a player and play with players. Or if they got in a idealism fight in RL, the two coders could have epic battles against themselves as their individual created dragons in game, or what not, much to the dismay of the on-lookers or maybe shedding some gold with each landed blow, making the onlookers risk their lives to try to snatch a few that fall.. I thought it was like, a coder perk- within the studios boundries of course.
Liav said:Aethor said:Cowtowing to the whims and whines of players is one of the roots of all evil.
If the game world is going to be changed according to player whims and whines, it doesn't have any stability, it does not have any more solid reality than a dream, a temporary figment of imagination.
One of the main things that makes immersion is the feeling that the game world is real, and one of central parts of that is that the world is solid and stable, unyielding, that it can and will punish mistakes. Lose that feeling, and you lose interest - why spend a year building up a guild to high-end raid level, when it's easier to whine and demand and get the content lowered down to your level? But then there is no feeling of accomplishing anything worthwhile. You just projected a figment of dream and grasped it, and its value may change again tomorrow.
In the end, in such a world, nobody would care about anything. And indeed, we saw so many MMORPGS lose people after the initial few months.
Non-sequitur.
I never see players whining for content to be made easier. Very often the content is just overtuned to the point that it's unkillable, in which case have the "difficulty" lowered is a reasonable demand if you actually want anyone to get anything done.
Pretending like every single piece of content is appropriately balanced is extremely naive. Even after several iterations I don't think it's mathematically possible to say that a given piece of content is perfectly balanced, or if perfectly balanced content is even achievable.
What?! You think the genre just magically became the way it is with no one ever asking for it? I've personally seen half a dozen games make things easier due to player complaints which set a precident. That precident led to the adoption of a more casual philosophy which undoubtedly led to the current state of affairs.
Dullahan said: What?! You think the genre just magically became the way it is with no one ever asking for it? I've personally seen half a dozen games make things easier due to player complaints which set a precident. That precident led to the adoption of a more casual philosophy which undoubtedly led to the current state of affairs.
^ - I was thinking the same thing for a reply to Liav. Sorry Liav but where have you been for the last 8-10 years? What Dullahan has said is true.. and even see it going on today with up and current mmo's.. not only that but I've done a few community RP mods and trust me.. you can never satisfy everyone and all you get are the whines and 2-3 good comments.. Why because people are shallow and won't praise something good half the time.. where as, if they see it as a negative you're granteed to see those comments 100%.
What you fail to understand is that you get portrayed as a tyrant if you do NOT change things. Which hurts your feelings or it did mine because I was doing it solely with the community in mind.. So instead of cowing down.. I abandoned it... they got rid of the mod I'd spent 2 and a half months making solidly for them (for free) and they replaced it with another. I came back a year later.. they had reverted to my old mod, modded it and asked me to continue it and make more improvements. It just goes to show that until they actually play it for while they're not going to understand it, even if you explain it and that's why I did what I did. The point being is that you can never satistfy everyone.. period.. but those developers (due to publishers) don't care about "the core game" they care about money.. And will do anything to change the game if enough demand to change it; just for more money.
I also remember getting told to "nerf" things all the time because.. (sadly I have to say it this way) most people don't want to "earn" anything or work together to achieve something. They want it given. But there is no sense of acommplishment like Dullahan said... which leads to shallow casual gameplay.. where everything is like some form of Hello Kitty world mmo incarnate and inevitably boring.
So Liav you may say this is false, but from experience I know this to be a fact.